The ability delay: the cause and how to avoid it

[Ryzerion]

Common sense and credibility would be...

 

 

Show a video that backs up your statement

 

 

Just show the opposite of the videos, use everything that has been climed and confirmed messed up to shut everyone up.

 

It doesn't makes sense, and I'm talking to the OP.

 

But you know what keep on, you'll see and what's crazy is that it's there even for you, on every class at that they have issues.

 

Once that new game feel wears off oh hell yea, it's really funny then.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Common sense and credibility would be...

 

 

Show a video that backs up your statement

 

 

Just show the opposite of the videos, use everything that has been climed and confirmed messed up to shut everyone up.

 

It doesn't makes sense, and I'm talking to the OP.

 

But you know what keep on, you'll see and what's crazy is that it's there even for you, on every class at that they have issues.

 

Once that new game feel wears off oh hell yea, it's really funny then.

 

I'd love to, if I could find any worthwhile software to record it with!

 

And frankly, when people start citing specific abilities as exhibiting 'the problem', that just makes me think that there's a bug with that ability in particular.

 

it's not a general 'ability delay' unless it affects EVERYTHING, at the very least in some specific circumstance.

 

From what I can see, the 'ability delay' problem is a combination of a series of bugs with specific abilities or ability classes, the action queue problem, and people misinterpreting the animations and damage indications as being when the ability 'goes off'.

 

The simple fact is, lumping things together like that actually makes it harder to fix them. If all these individual problems are being reported as a general 'delay', it causes them to start looking in the wrong place, possibly never finding the specific, smaller issues that caused it. At the very least, not for a much longer time.

 

it is EXTREMELY important that the causes of each individual part of the overall problem be found, isolated, and examined if Bioware is to fix them.

[DarthMurdek]

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'bar going up twice'. Do any other abilities of the same sort do the same thing, especially the smuggler equivalent?

 

It could be an ability specific bug like the one ravage sounds like it has, and not a general ability issue at all.

 

The blue bar that indicates the skill is charging fills up twice before it fires the first shot. The damage for the shot hits the target after the first time it goes up but it prevents me from using another skill for 1.5 seconds (the charge time for the skill) if i use the skill continously it catches up but that only helps against elites it effectively halves my damage against groups of weak mobs because it happens on the first shot of wvery target.

 

yes the same thing happens on my gunslinger with the equivelent skill.

[Tiron_Raptor]

The blue bar that indicates the skill is charging fills up twice before it fires the first shot. The damage for the shot hits the target after the first time it goes up but it prevents me from using another skill for 1.5 seconds (the charge time for the skill) if i use the skill continously it catches up but that only helps against elites it effectively halves my damage against groups of weak mobs because it happens on the first shot of wvery target.

 

yes the same thing happens on my gunslinger with the equivelent skill.

 

That is...interesting. I've never seen anything like that, but I haven't really played anything with cast-time abilities. Does it happen with anything else, or just those two?

 

And has anyone else seen a problem like that with their gunslinger and/or sniper?

[Arkerus]

I'd love to, if I could find any worthwhile software to record it with!

 

And frankly, when people start citing specific abilities as exhibiting 'the problem', that just makes me think that there's a bug with that ability in particular.

 

it's not a general 'ability delay' unless it affects EVERYTHING, at the very least in some specific circumstance.

 

From what I can see, the 'ability delay' problem is a combination of a series of bugs with specific abilities or ability classes, the action queue problem, and people misinterpreting the animations and damage indications as being when the ability 'goes off'.

 

The simple fact is, lumping things together like that actually makes it harder to fix them. If all these individual problems are being reported as a general 'delay', it causes them to start looking in the wrong place, possibly never finding the specific, smaller issues that caused it. At the very least, not for a much longer time.

 

it is EXTREMELY important that the causes of each individual part of the overall problem be found, isolated, and examined if Bioware is to fix them.

 

I actually understand a little bit of what you are talking about. And YES...the first time you press it, it stores it in memory to queue the move (as long as its withing your queue range). It doesn't matter how many times you hammer on it.

 

 

However...as you stated...the engine does not queue the next ability up instantly. There is some odd lag between the current execution ability and the next "queued" ability. I believe that it is either a "malfunction" like you stated or the ability is waiting for the previous animation to finish.

 

If the animation has not sent a "complete" command or a "done" command to the server, the next ability is in wait mode until it finishes. The only exception is abilities OFF the global cooldown. That is why they execute instantly and you never see the animation (e.g. Force Kick).

 

You never see Force Kick animation execute during another move because it doesn't need a check to execute! The ability is not tied to anything else so the server allows it to execute instantly.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Arkerus

[Polly_Pocket]

This may be partially true, but it's not true for all abilities. I can have nothing on cooldown and press FORCE SWEEP one time (jump aoe attack) and the stuttering/delay still occurs.

[DarthMurdek]

i have only used agent smuggler knight and warrior but with the knight and warrior i notice when im trying to chain my abilities together it becomes difficult because the rage and focus i generate with my base attack doesnt allways register right away like a .5 sec delay after the attack and im left standing there doing nothing until i clue in to press it again.

[Dianoia]

I would love for someone to do the following:

 

Cast Ravage. Halfway through, cast Force Choke. Immediately spam your lightsaber swing.

 

Q: Why does the ravage animation immediately stop and the choke animation doesn't even go off, but partial Ravage damage is dealt, your target is CC'd, and your lightsaber swings?

 

The game is not "waiting for animations."

[belialle]

 

If you're spamming the crap out of the button ANYWAY, I highly suggest using 0.0 ability action queue window. Otherwise, I suggest leaving it on unless you're VERY sure you can time it precisely.

 

 

Guilty!

 

Old habits die hard, I guess. I can't stop myself from trying to "beat" the GCD or to get that ability fired off at the very first possible moment.

[Tiron_Raptor]

I actually understand a little bit of what you are talking about. And YES...the first time you press it, it stores it in memory to queue the move (as long as its withing your queue range). It doesn't matter how many times you hammer on it.

 

 

However...as you stated...the engine does not queue the next ability up instantly. There is some odd lag between the current execution ability and the next "queued" ability. I believe that it is either a "malfunction" like you stated or the ability is waiting for the previous animation to finish.

 

If the animation has not sent a "complete" command or a "done" command to the server, the next ability is in wait mode until it finishes. The only exception is abilities OFF the global cooldown. That is why they execute instantly and you never see the animation (e.g. Force Kick).

 

You never see Force Kick animation execute during another move because it doesn't need a check to execute! The ability is not tied to anything else so the server allows it to execute instantly.

 

There does appear to be a bug with at least some of the non-GCD abilities that causes them to fail to fire sometimes, with odd effects from the client as it happens. The one example I saw looked like the ability was respecting the GCD, but I couldn't tell if it was part of the client doing it or something server-side: part of the client at least was trying to execute it.

 

In theory though, the animations themselves shouldn't result in anything being sent to the server: they're purely client side, to make it moar prettyful.

 

What I'm talking about here though, is that when you press the button once, and it gets stored in memory to execute when the GCD finishes, that it doesn't actually execute it until a little bit after the GCD actually finishes: there's a noticeable 'gap' between the GCD ending and the queue firing the ability.

 

I would love for someone to do the following:

 

Cast Ravage. Halfway through, cast Force Choke. Immediately spam your lightsaber swing.

 

Q: Why does the ravage animation immediately stop and the choke animation doesn't even go off, but partial Ravage damage is dealt, your target is CC'd, and your lightsaber swings?

 

The game is not "waiting for animations."

 

Dunno about that one, but I have heard some interesting reports about Ravage failing to execute correctly on some occasions. Doesn't seem related to any 'delay', sounds like the thing is just...broken somehow.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Tiron_Raptor]

Guilty!

 

Old habits die hard, I guess. I can't stop myself from trying to "beat" the GCD or to get that ability fired off at the very first possible moment.

 

If that's what you're doing, setting the action queue window to 0.0 will help tremendously. With the queue off, it'll fire the ability the very first time you press it after the GCD finishes. If you left the queue on, it'd queue the ability the first time you pressed it, ignore the subsequent presses, and not fire the ability until after the little delay I noticed.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Arkerus]

There does appear to be a bug with at least some of the non-GCD abilities that causes them to fail to fire sometimes, with odd effects from the client as it happens. The one example I saw looked like the ability was respecting the GCD, but I couldn't tell if it was part of the client doing it or something server-side: part of the client at least was trying to execute it.

 

In theory though, the animations themselves shouldn't result in anything being sent to the server: they're purely client side, to make it moar prettyful.

 

What I'm talking about here though, is that when you press the button once, and it gets stored in memory to execute when the GCD finishes, that it doesn't actually execute it until a little bit after the GCD actually finishes: there's a noticeable 'gap' between the GCD ending and the queue firing the ability.

 

 

 

Dunno about that one, but I have heard some interesting reports about Ravage failing to execute correctly on some occasions. Doesn't seem related to any 'delay', sounds like the thing is just...broken somehow.

 

I know what you are saying. I was agreeing with you. I am playing with the queue window turned to 0.0 and yes, the gameplay is better.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Arkerus

[Fireline]

The problem is that during development devs stated they wanted to make the game artistic with the fighting style, they want the full animations, and different animations for every skill etc.

 

They overextended somehow, and they make the abilities animation 1º priority over GCD.

 

This just does not work in a game with a GCD. you either have abilities determined by animation, or GCD.

 

Not both

[StormDragonlord]

That is...interesting. I've never seen anything like that, but I haven't really played anything with cast-time abilities. Does it happen with anything else, or just those two?

 

And has anyone else seen a problem like that with their gunslinger and/or sniper?

 

This happens with my Sorcerer's Crushing Darkness, Lightning Strike, Force Lightning pretty much every casting ability I have. I also consistently have to wait for like 2 seconds in the same spot AFTER my cast bar is done because the ability takes a lot to fire, like I cast CD and he stays there with the animation on hand for 1 -1.5s before firing, if I move, or try casting something else it stops completely. The ability delay and character unresponsiveness IS there. And MANY people are experiencing it. ( proof is the thread you see in here, having 4-5 reincarnations because the previous one gets full. thousands of posts and counting.)

 

The delay is there. Some people may not see it because they haven't played WoW but it is there.

[belialle]

The blue bar that indicates the skill is charging fills up twice before it fires the first shot. The damage for the shot hits the target after the first time it goes up but it prevents me from using another skill for 1.5 seconds (the charge time for the skill) if i use the skill continously it catches up but that only helps against elites it effectively halves my damage against groups of weak mobs because it happens on the first shot of wvery target.

 

yes the same thing happens on my gunslinger with the equivelent skill.

 

So you are saying that the first time you use Snipe on any given mob, the game runs through your castbar twice before firing the ability? That is very strange.

 

I play a Concealment Operative, so I don't Snipe much, but I've been testing it a little since I read this, and I'm not noticing anything like this, unless I am just misunderstanding you here.

[SpringDrive]

It's not the animations.

 

Many times I've seen this: chain one instant cast ability with another. The second one doesn't fire and gives "target already dead" even though the animation for the first attack hasn't completed. Happens all the time on my gunslinger. The target is already dead on the server side, you just haven't seen it yet due to client lag, so when you hit the second ability before the animation for the first one completes you get an update from the server telling you "already dead" and the second ability doesn't fire.

 

The client is out of sync with what is really going on on the server end, is what it looks like. This is inevitable to some degree, but for some reason it is more noticeable than it should be.

 

How many times have you seen this: you are about to kill an enemy, and then it just stands there looking at you for a second doing nothing, then suddenly decides "I'm dead" and falls down. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

Or this: walk into what seems like an invisible wall for some reason, and then a second later you can move again. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

I've noticed this happening more during peak times and my lagometer never measures any lag. Could be due to server processing load rather than network latency.

[DarthMurdek]

So you are saying that the first time you use Snipe on any given mob, the game runs through your castbar twice before firing the ability? That is very strange.

 

I play a Concealment Operative, so I don't Snipe much, but I've been testing it a little since I read this, and I'm not noticing anything like this, unless I am just misunderstanding you here.

 

 

yes but its not the first time per mob its the anytime i use the skill not right after itself say i used snipe then explosive probe then snipe then frag it would take an extra 1.5 seconds to use probe and the probe would detonate before the shot leaves the gun because the damage registers but the animation does not and prevents the use of grenade until it actually shoots. Oddly enough this does not happen with Ambush altough the longer casting time and cooldown might have something to do with it.

[Arkerus]

It's not the animations.

 

Many times I've seen this: chain one instant cast ability with another. The second one doesn't fire and gives "target already dead" even though the animation for the first attack hasn't completed. Happens all the time on my gunslinger. The target is already dead on the server side, you just haven't seen it yet due to client lag, so when you hit the second ability before the animation for the first one completes you get an update from the server telling you "already dead" and the second ability doesn't fire.

 

The client is out of sync with what is really going on on the server end, is what it looks like. This is inevitable to some degree, but for some reason it is more noticeable than it should be.

 

How many times have you seen this: you are about to kill an enemy, and then it just stands there looking at you for a second doing nothing, then suddenly decides "I'm dead" and falls down. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

Or this: walk into what seems like an invisible wall for some reason, and then a second later you can move again. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

I've noticed this happening more during peak times and my lagometer never measures any lag. Could be due to server processing load rather than network latency.

 

This IS what the OP is talking about.

 

Its not directly animation lag but its "gap" between the auto-queued moves. Yes, I agree wth you though, this game's client and server seem very out of sync at times.

[DarthMurdek]

It's not the animations.

 

Many times I've seen this: chain one instant cast ability with another. The second one doesn't fire and gives "target already dead" even though the animation for the first attack hasn't completed. Happens all the time on my gunslinger. The target is already dead on the server side, you just haven't seen it yet due to client lag, so when you hit the second ability before the animation for the first one completes you get an update from the server telling you "already dead" and the second ability doesn't fire.

 

The client is out of sync with what is really going on on the server end, is what it looks like. This is inevitable to some degree, but for some reason it is more noticeable than it should be.

 

How many times have you seen this: you are about to kill an enemy, and then it just stands there looking at you for a second doing nothing, then suddenly decides "I'm dead" and falls down. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

Or this: walk into what seems like an invisible wall for some reason, and then a second later you can move again. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

I've noticed this happening more during peak times and my lagometer never measures any lag. Could be due to server processing load rather than network latency.

 

that may be true for enemies that i can one shot but it still happens on elites and bosses that require a couple more. this is especially annoying in pvp when i use snipe on a distant enemy and a knight roles up on me and i cant stun him and cast probe before he uses force sweep or master strike.

 

yes i do agree it is out of sync at times like when i walk into an empty room in an instance and then get rolled by the ten battle droids i ambled past before my game said they were there.

Edited January 5, 2012 by DarthMurdek

[SpringDrive]

that may be true for enemies that i can one shot but it still happens on elites and bosses that require a couple more. this is especially annoying in pvp when i use snipe on a distant enemy and a knight roles up on me and i cant stun him and cast probe before he uses force sweep or master strike.

 

It has nothing to do with one-shotting enemies, I was talking about kill shots.

 

Also, think about it guys: if the client has to pause to sync, then it will also delay relaying commands to the server. I think this could very well be related to the command response delay.

Edited January 5, 2012 by SpringDrive

[Gunryu]

SO why did Bioware acknowledge this issue and well..........and issue?

[Tiron_Raptor]

It's not the animations.

 

Many times I've seen this: chain one instant cast ability with another. The second one doesn't fire and gives "target already dead" even though the animation for the first attack hasn't completed. Happens all the time on my gunslinger. The target is already dead on the server side, you just haven't seen it yet due to client lag, so when you hit the second ability before the animation for the first one completes you get an update from the server telling you "already dead" and the second ability doesn't fire.

 

The client is out of sync with what is really going on on the server end, is what it looks like. This is inevitable to some degree, but for some reason it is more noticeable than it should be.

 

How many times have you seen this: you are about to kill an enemy, and then it just stands there looking at you for a second doing nothing, then suddenly decides "I'm dead" and falls down. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

Or this: walk into what seems like an invisible wall for some reason, and then a second later you can move again. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

I've noticed this happening more during peak times and my lagometer never measures any lag. Could be due to server processing load rather than network latency.

 

My personal speculation is that they're having the client delay starting the attack animations until it receives the success message(with the damage attached) from the server. There is a VERY noticeable delay between using an ability and the animation starting, and that would account for it.

 

As for the REASON they might do that... I suspect it has to do with the 'hiding the network latency effects' thing, ironically! WoW generally uses relatively slow projectiles for spells that have projectiles, and the damage done by bolt spells doesn't show up until the bolt hits...unless it times out because you're outrunning the bolt.

 

Because the bolts are so slow, there's plenty of time for the client to start simulating the spell at the end of the cast time, get the damage message from the server, and hold it until the spell hits, at which point it displays the effects.

 

SWTOR's projectiles are generally...quite fast. There's less time for the client to receive the damage between firing the projectile and the projectile hitting. So they delayed the start of the attack animation a bit to make up for it.

[DarthMurdek]

It has nothing to do with one-shotting enemies, I was talking about kill shots.

 

 

Oh okay now i got ya. That happens to me alot when im fightin things i cant kill in one hit.

[oflow]

It's not the animations.

 

Many times I've seen this: chain one instant cast ability with another. The second one doesn't fire and gives "target already dead" even though the animation for the first attack hasn't completed. Happens all the time on my gunslinger. The target is already dead on the server side, you just haven't seen it yet due to client lag, so when you hit the second ability before the animation for the first one completes you get an update from the server telling you "already dead" and the second ability doesn't fire.

 

The client is out of sync with what is really going on on the server end, is what it looks like. This is inevitable to some degree, but for some reason it is more noticeable than it should be.

 

How many times have you seen this: you are about to kill an enemy, and then it just stands there looking at you for a second doing nothing, then suddenly decides "I'm dead" and falls down. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

Or this: walk into what seems like an invisible wall for some reason, and then a second later you can move again. Client out of sync, pausing to sync with server.

 

I've noticed this happening more during peak times and my lagometer never measures any lag. Could be due to server processing load rather than network latency.

 

 

Yep its called a sync error. Its when the cpu of theclient and the server get out of sync. WAR, AoC and other games have had it.

 

Even WoW had it after the 4.1 patch but fixed it relatively quickly.

 

I have a feeling the bigger issue is with the actual engine since Bioware didnt design it, and as a developer you are forced to use the tools that you are provided with.

[Zebular]

No matter what ability I use, even sheathing and unsheathing my weapon, there is a 1 second delay from when I press the button (keyboard or with the mouse), before it will fire off. Oddly, the only two things that do not have a delay is movement (w,s,a,d) and jumping (spacebar).

 

This has nothing to do with any GCDs, as the OP suggests.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Zebular