Combatlogs/addons. why isnt it implented allready?

[azhrione]

Would you believe me if I told you there was a game with an amazing raiding community that has been wildly successful for many years. Helped birth and shape raiding into what it is today and it has zero addons and combat logs? You probably won't. But when people say "hardcore" pve or pvp or hardcore anything they generally think of WoW, which is ironic because much of WoW was cloned from this game. The game is Everquest. Over 12 years of epic 54 man raiding with NO RECOUNT.

 

Combat logs have been in EQ since nearly day one. Offline parsing is still parsing, but that isn't really the problem with your statement.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges. When you have a gimmick encounter you can flatten the margin for error by increasing available resources. EQ had a really flat margin of error due to 54+ man raiding. WOW dropped that down to 40, then 25/10, and SWTOR drops it to 16. The fewer players involved the higher the margin for error and the greater impact every player has. This is typically a good thing since individual players feel a greater sense of worth and reward for defeating an encounter. However when you throw in encounter gimmicks like DPS checks, threat checks, weird movement rotations, split raids, whatever you create an environment that benefits greatly from statistical analysis.

 

While you can look at EQ for trending, it is hard to do a direct comparison on gameplay. It is a different beast entirely, WOW is a far better analog due to the very similar designs. May not want to hear that, but it is what it is.

[Flaashheart]

Would you believe me if I told you there was a game with an amazing raiding community that has been wildly successful for many years. Helped birth and shape raiding into what it is today and it has zero addons and combat logs? You probably won't. But when people say "hardcore" pve or pvp or hardcore anything they generally think of WoW, which is ironic because much of WoW was cloned from this game. The game is Everquest. Over 12 years of epic 54 man raiding with NO RECOUNT.

 

54 lol, spot the late starter. I raided Rathe council with 120 split into 2 raids when it was max 72.

 

And as others have stated, EQ had logging from day 1.

[Finaly]

54 lol, spot the late starter. I raided Rathe council with 120 split into 2 raids when it was max 72.

 

And as others have stated, EQ had logging from day 1.

 

good old times... i miss them... the immersion and lore was great... i hate soe for *********** up eq2.... even if i played it and raided very hardcore...

 

but guys.... we can hope for EQ next...

[LizardSF]

I know this is hard to believe but a long time ago in a galaxy far far there were games before WoW. In these games players had to actually figure out why the failed to kill a boss with this thing called communication. They used a keyboard and typed to one another and thought out the battle which in the end helped them win.

 

That CAN'T be true! It's IMPOSSIBLE!

[Kubernetic]

I'm hesitant to respond to this thread after seven pages, however there have been a bunch of emotional and thus irrational comments against combat logs.

 

There are some very valid and important reasons to have combat logs be available to players for analysis.

 

First and perhaps the most important is that we are the players are the best quality unit on the planet. For example if I take a talent point that gives an ability a 30% critical chance, but testing shows it is only landing for a critical 15% of the time, then that is a bug and it needs to be corrected. Chances of that being caught eventually internally are fairly high, but the player base itself will find it a lot quicker and lead to a faster resolution. Having hard numbers to back up relevant data carries a lot more weight than anecdotal evidence. Historical trending in other games proves that this is of tremendous help to development teams.

 

Next reason has to do with what the OP was talking about and that is gimmick raiding. Encounters in many raids are gimmick based, and this is something that has been going on in MMOs for a long time and SWTOR has given no evidence to be moving away from the paradigm. Examples of combat logs being required to at minimum decipher encounters are innumerable, and there are plenty of examples from other games where without a combat log, add-on, or exploit some encounters were basically impossible for even the best gamers. Old school examples would be Xegony or The Rathe Council in EQ, with more modern examples from WOW being pre-expansion Vaelastrasz or Patchwerk. Right now SWTOR doesn't have any encounters that I know of that have any game breaking gimmicks, but since they are continuing to use gimmick encounters I assume they will continue with the overall industry trend.

 

Modification of the UI is another sore point, and a lot of people mix up the idea of modifying the existing UI to suit taste and creating add-ons to change the gameplay experience. The first is a very valid and it is almost criminal that we were not at least given a scale slider for the UI or the ability to change font size for text. Elimination of unwanted or unused UI artifacts, scaling, and adjustable placement should be a top priority for Bioware in upcoming patches.

 

Add-ons are another story entirely, I'm OK with them in principal if they compensate for a deficit in the default UI. For example, adding in a damage meter or bag organization, I'm OK with that since it is something that is not within the default UI. However adding exploitative functionality is another thing entirely, Decursive or even something as mundane as Clique, might be going too far as it fundamentally changes gameplay.

 

Again I am hesitant to post this here because I don't think I will get rational responses, but maybe it clears up the argument for someone.

 

I appreciate the well-versed response.

 

I'm not sure what it is, but the way these guys keep DEMANDING a combat log within days does not lead me to believe they want it for the better purposes as listed here... maybe that's just my own cynicism coming through.

[Cranberries]

Bioware don't know how to make a successful MMO.

[CharagonIGN]

Proberly because they dont want this game turning into World of Warcraft because it will bring out all the elitest jerks & arogant know it alls that think they are higher then everyone else if they do decided to bring it out they should make the logs private and non shareable so others cant see

 

Drrrrrr! I wanna smash buttons and do moves and win! Drrrrr!

[ApesAmongUs]

I know this is hard to believe but a long time ago in a galaxy far far there were games before WoW. In these games players had to actually figure out why the failed to kill a boss with this thing called communication. They used a keyboard and typed to one another and thought out the battle which in the end helped them win.

Odd. I know players who parsed MUD output from at least 1990 onward, so unless the amazing parse-less games were on a C64, I call bull.

[DaxRendar]

I think they are two different things.

 

A combat log is pretty standard and I think neutral. I expect that it will come along eventually.

 

Addons, however, are something else. I very much like that CCP, for example, has never allowed add-ons in EVE to keep the playing field more equal (EVE does have combat logs) in a game that is very competitive in almost every area. If you want to parse through the logs yourself in an out-of-game tool, of course, you're welcome to do so. But not in the game itself, which keeps everyone in the same place in terms of the UI and functionality.

 

Excellent Point!!!

(Sadly far too rational for this thread )

[OdonKnight]

Why isnt this implented yet? I know there is a thread somewhere but without search function on the forum its hard to find. If you want ANY serious PvE guilds to take this game seriously this MUST be added in the near future. There is no real negatives other than that the slackers may be told off or kicked from the guild. How are you supposed to know why you didnt manage to kill a boss if you got no stats to go give you an indication of why you failed? and how will the unexperienced ever get better if they have no idea what they are doing wrong? it makes no sense to me.

 

Because raiding (current - not older content) is impossible (in other games) without add-ons from other sources to make raiding easier. Raiding becomes easier - designers take into account your heightened abilities in future raids - raids get more difficult - so only those with the add-ons can compete - we now have a self repeating circle.

 

A new game should design their game to be influenced by what outside persons and companies can do to their game????

 

No.

 

Once you open Pandora's box you cannot close it.

 

Also - no add-ons also means your bot detecting parameters can be stricter.

[azhrione]

Because raiding (current - not older content) is impossible (in other games) without add-ons from other sources to make raiding easier. Raiding becomes easier - designers take into account your heightened abilities in future raids - raids get more difficult - so only those with the add-ons can compete - we now have a self repeating circle.

 

A new game should design their game to be influenced by what outside persons and companies can do to their game????

 

No.

 

Once you open Pandora's box you cannot close it.

 

Also - no add-ons also means your bot detecting parameters can be stricter.

 

It doesn't always play out this way.

 

For example the Vaelastrasz encounter in WOW forced the development of until then nascent threat meter.

 

Also the box can be closed, WOW is a perfect example of this in the limiting of add-on functionality. It was adjusted multiple times, first to kill Decursive, later to kill stacked button presses, and finally to kill server queries.

 

I'm not supporting a full fledged do what you will environment like vanilla WOW was, where things were taken to almost silly levels for add-ons. However cosmetic enhancements, and quality of life add-ons are probably going to need to be supported in order for Bioware to improve their base UI.

[Senul]

The only argument i can see that would be remotely valid against Addons would be the argument that once a damage meter is put in, the forums will blow up in x class beat me on x boss in x raid by 2/10ths of a point they must be OP, nerf them please. BW probably doesn't want to deal with that yet, especially since there is more important things they need to work on first.

 

 

EDIT: But i see no reason why they can't add a simple combat log.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Senul

[Ghaiana]

I only used one add-on in WoW, a quest tracker when that came available. Here it's standard. I never minded much about combat logs, I can quite keep track of what I do with flytexts. The game is playable without them.

[azhrione]

The only argument i can see that would be remotely valid against Addons would be the argument that once a damage meter is put in, the forums will blow up in x class beat me on x boss in x raid by 2/10ths of a point they must be OP, nerf them please. BW probably doesn't want to deal with that yet, especially since there is more important things they need to work on first.

 

 

EDIT: But i see no reason why they can't add a simple combat log.

 

This could be their reasoning, however there are not currently any encounters I could see someone being excluded based upon the results of a data parse. What is going to hurt is if they enable this down the road after the end game has expanded and all the sudden people find their year old playstyle/spec isn't valid for the endgame.

 

Deal with balance now when it's easy rather than later when it is hard.