Juggernaut Versus Powertech Tanking Comparison

[Wilsu_Addar]

I will say the obvious thing that he keeps stating (Juggs taking spikier damage) can actually end up being a good thing.

 

While it is pretty normal to say a healer would rather see consistent damage on a tank, rather than spiky damage, let's also remember the game we're playing.

 

All healers have an infinite resource pool (Sorcs less so, but still regens) and as thus are not as prone to burst healing in this game. While a Jugg will indeed take more spike damage, he has amazing cooldowns, and this can play to the healers favor.

 

If a Jugg takes spiky damage for 5 seconds and the healers push a little harder than normal, then he takes very little/no damage for the next five seconds, the healers have that much time to actively regenerate their resource pool. Anytime they don't have to heal, they are regenerating valuable resources.

 

The cooldowns are also pretty apparent. Juggernaughts will be favored in any fight where the boss has a set "burst damage" phase or mechanic. Think Festergut in ICC, etc.

 

Boss uses an ability that increases his damage by 150% for 30 seconds. Juggernaughts are not going to have a tough time with that at all. Their cooldowns are very conducive to receiving major amounts of spike damage.

 

Just wanted to throw that perspective out there. While the overall "its better to take more consistent damage, rather than spiky damage" is true, it's not a major game changer. Juggernaughts are still incredibly viable tanks and we'll be seeing more and more of them in nightmare encounters, especially in future raids, to mitigate those big burst damage boss phases.

 

- W.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Zilrota
removed rude

[Kitru]

While a Jugg will indeed take more spike damage, he has amazing cooldowns, and this can play to the healers favor.

 

Actually, no, they don't. In fact, Juggs/Guards have the *worst* CDs, which was the only real conclusion of sub-par performance that could be determined by looking at the comparative mitigation capabilities of the two classes. Guards have long CD, general purpose CDs that are not appreciably better than those provided by either the Shad/Sin *or* the VG/PT and suffer from being on 50% longer CDs compared to those of the others. The primary weakness of Juggs/Guards is the very CDs you attempt to laud as their saving grace.

[Wilsu_Addar]

Just for completeness:

 

Bounty Hunter cooldowns:

 

Oil Slick: Ranged/melee accuracy lowered by 20% for 18 seconds. Area effect that requires positioning the boss in the oil slick.

 

Energy Field: Lowers damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

 

Kolto Overload: Regenerates 15% health of max health over 10 seconds.

 

Juggernaught cooldowns:

 

Invincible: Reduces all damage taken by 45% for 10 seconds.

 

Saber Ward: Increases melee and ranged defense by 50% and reduces Force and Tech damage by 25%. Lasts for 12 seconds.

 

Endure Pain: Temporarily grants 30% maximum health for 10 seconds.

 

 

In a burst phase of damage on a boss (or if a healer drops and is getting rezzed by the other) I feel the Juggernaught would be superior. Now, this 10-12 seconds of being almost untouchable doesn't mean they don't need fixing, but it certainly does come into play more than one would think.

 

If both tanks were to pop all their cooldowns in a huge incoming burst phase/healer dies/oh crap I'm the only one left and there's 1% life on the boss, etc.

 

Bounty Hunter: Reduces all damage by 25%, lowers the CHANCE to hit him by 20% on the boss, and regenerates 1.5% health a second.

 

Juggernaught: Reduces all damage by 45%, reduces Force and Tech damage by 70%, increases defense by 50%, and gains 30% more maxiumum health.

 

Clearly, the Juggernaught has the best burst mitigation of the two. That's the only point I was trying to make.

 

This does NOT make up for them being sub-par in all other respects, and they clearly need some fine-tuning to get more in line with other tanks. But for those 10 seconds, they are nigh invincible.

 

 

The reason why I was saying this can help them is that even with their inadequacies compared to Powertechs, a solid Juggernaught will be able to tank most encounters. If you had equal healers, equal gear, equal skill...both classes can tank any encounter in the game with no problem.

 

It's when the poo hits the fan that Juggernaughts can pull out of a really tight jam. Will Powertechs be able to pull out of the same jam? Maybe. But the extra damage mitigation of the Juggernaught during that "oh crap" phase can really come in handy.

 

TL;DR: I agree, Powertechs are better overall tanks. I think Juggernaughts have the best burst mitigation. I still think the Juggernaught needs a buff to compete with the other classes on an equal level. That being said, they are still completely viable tanks.

 

- W.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Wilsu_Addar

[lokivoid]

Sorry, was mainly doing a comparison between powertech and juggs as they are the more notable of the tanks. Not to say Sith Assassins can't tank, it's just I haven't seen any decent ones. (Or it could be that being a tank myself, I've never had a tank one join one of my groups)

 

With that being said I plan on trying out all the tanks. I think the BH is definitely a unique fun style to play. And the SA has his own unique perks, mainly getting self heals to help mitigate damage along with decent burst damage and burst aggro abilities.

 

The problem I have with Juggs is we have marginally less overall mitigation comparatively to other tanks for significantly less offensive power all because we have a few better passives/talents. (Namely Saber Ward and Sonic Barrier). I'm sorry but Saber Ward/Sonic Barrier does not make up for the lack of consistent mitigation or the lack of damage. I don't want to be an overpowered class and be FOTM, but I would like our classes mitigation and damage to be brought in line with the other tanks.

 

The self heals are a complete joke. the dark charge procs are to week to be relivent, and the lightning heal takes alot of wind up and requires a vary force starved rotation to maintain to a reasonable extent. Overall assassin tanks need a complete redesign.

[Sykomyke]

For once I actually agree with Kitru completely. The cooldowns while they are nice in their own regard for specific circumstances, are actually worse then other tanks cooldown abilities. I'm fine with trade-offs (less defense for more offense, etc) but in this case Juggernauts seem to not only have the worst damage of the 3 tanking specs, but also the worst synergy/consistent mitigation of the 3.

 

@Wilsu. Just cause you don't like the way I communicate (Sorry. I'm not going to hold your hand and call you a special snowflake.) doesn't negate my analysis. Plenty of people agree with me. I honestly don't care if you completely and utterly ignore me...it makes no difference whatsoever to me.

 

@Loki. I'm not entirely sure about Assassins. They are the next class I plan on leveling to see how they tank and what pros/cons they have.

[Wilsu_Addar]

You provided no analysis. Kitru did that for you.

 

Unfortunately, when you say "many people agree with me" it doesn't mean much. Most people don't understand what they're even wanting. They just want their class to be more powerful so they will cry for buffs for themselves and nerfs for other classes.

 

That being said, I do agree with the fundamental point that Juggernaught tanks need a boost. They are noticeably behind other tanks in certain areas. I think each tank captures a very distinctive flavor and style, and while they'll never be completely equal, there shouldn't be such a large gap between them.

 

- W.

[ruminate]

Know what I find odd? In every analysis that concludes the tanks have similar survivability, the analysis always takes into account Smash's accuracy debuff..... but they never take into account the PT's fire damage debuff, or the Assassin's Wither damage debuff.

 

*I'm referring to Kitru's analysis BTW.

Edited January 9, 2012 by ruminate

[Kitru]

Know what I find odd?

 

My bad on that. Thought I had taken it into consideration, but as I look over it now, I haven't. I'll fix the math post-haste (though I'm too lazy to change the "conclusions" at the moment which really only amount to PT/VGs now having marginally better incoming damage reduction).

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kitru

[Sykomyke]

You provided no analysis. Kitru did that for you.

 

Unfortunately, when you say "many people agree with me" it doesn't mean much. Most people don't understand what they're even wanting. They just want their class to be more powerful so they will cry for buffs for themselves and nerfs for other classes.

 

That being said, I do agree with the fundamental point that Juggernaught tanks need a boost. They are noticeably behind other tanks in certain areas. I think each tank captures a very distinctive flavor and style, and while they'll never be completely equal, there shouldn't be such a large gap between them.

 

- W.

 

Actually I did provide some analysis. Kitru provided some as well, and then as I stated on page 3 (and edited into the original post) I provided analysis of Oil Slick versus talented Smash.

 

So yes I have, and what I originally provided was still adequate analysis, regardless of what Kitru posted.

 

"Many people agree with me". What...now I need signed signatures/screenshots/links to every person that has stated they feel there is a rather large disparity between PT and Jugg? Who are you again...? Because you seem to think that you are the judge/jury/executioner of suggested changes to classes. If you had bothered to read my first post (which again I don't think you actually did) you'll notice that I even said:

 

Edit: I'm not trying to make the classes the same. I like asymmetrical classes with different bonuses. And I'm not saying to nerf Powertechs. They have an obvious synergy with all of their talents that works well. Their entire core of their design revolves around shielding for the most part. But I would like to see Juggernaut talents brought in line with this as well.

 

Clearly you have trouble reading. Either that or you are so jaded against me now to review anything I've said, because I don't hold your hand and call you cupcake.

[Sykomyke]

Know what I find odd? In every analysis that concludes the tanks have similar survivability, the analysis always takes into account Smash's accuracy debuff..... but they never take into account the PT's fire damage debuff, or the Assassin's Wither damage debuff.

 

*I'm referring to Kitru's analysis BTW.

 

As much as I love theorycrafting (/sarcasm) this is why I tried to avoid the "temporary" buffs/debuffs in the original analysis. I included them because I KNEW someone would come along and go "why didn't you include this" but for the most part any temporary debuff isn't guaranteed. What if the mobs out of range? What if you run out of resources in your rotation due to an unexpected complication? What if you get knocked back?

 

There are too many unknown factors that come into play with temporary buffs/debuffs. Yes they can be taken into account, but aside from *static* temporary buffs (Such as Kolto Overload: This is a temporary buff that gives permanent results-Additional Health) I was merely trying to compare the straight permanent buffs, and I did so.

 

Accounting for Permanent Smash on a mob, or Permanent Combust on a mob is rather difficult for reasons I previously stated. Even more so given that one is a reduced accuracy (which is RNG) and one is straight damage reduction (not RNG).

 

See what I'm saying? I did do *some* comparisons to further show the disparity with the temporary buffs and I was hung out to dry by the trolls who wanted to latch onto anything they could sink their teeth into.

[Areoss]

You're completely ignoring uptime ratios. Oil Slick is on a 60 sec CD while Smash is on a 15 sec CD. A Juggernaut/Guardian can maintain the 5% accuracy debuff permanently while a PT/VG can only maintain a roughly 25% uptime.

 

 

 

First off, Unleash isn't meant to be a direct comparison to Kolto Overload. Unleash is your CC removal power and it can be *talented* (albeit with a talent that no Tank would actually consider taking) into being a self heal. Kolto Overload is fully intended to be a self heal and designed as such. You're comparing an apple to an orange here.

 

 

 

Ion Gas Cylinder provides 5% default damage reduction with 4% additional from talents. Juggs get Soresu form which provides 6% default damage reduction. It's a 3% difference, not as much as you think.

 

 

 

While I agree with the sentiment (Powertechs and Vanguards are *noticeably* better tanks all around at the moment compared to Juggs/Guards and Assassins/Shadows), you're overstating the degree to which Powertechs are better and, in doing so, shooting yourself in the foot. You're not even looking at a holistic comparison of the classes in question, which would actually show you something.

 

First off, you've got to realize that Shield and absorb are fundamentally lower in value than Defense. A higher shield chance will allow you to mitigate more often, but it is a partial mitigation rather than a complete mitigation. Ergo, bonus defense (such as the copious amounts provided by Guardians/Juggs) is worth more, on a point for point basis, than bonus shield or absorb.

 

Let's consider the armor (and damage reduction), defense, shield, and absorb benefits of well played Juggernauts:

 

First off, you get 6% additional defense as provided by Guard Stance. You also get an additional 6% defense as provided by Blade Barricade (Riposte has a 6 second CD and chances are *excellent* that you're going to get at least 1 defense success within any specific 6 second window since a vast majority of attacks are multi-attacks and you only need to deflect 1 of them for it to count; it's functionally a permanent buff; at worst, it'll have 75% uptime). Since accuracy reduction is functionally the same as defense (it reduces the chance to hit), Quake provides an additional 5%.

 

Soresu form provides 60% additional armor and 6% damage reduction. The 60% additional armor is the same as that provided by the PT tank stance by default so we can largely ignore it. For I/E, you get 4% extra. That's pretty much it for that.

 

For shield, Soresu form provide 15% additional shield chance (a standard for Ion Gas Cylinder, so we can ignore it) and Shield Spec provides an additional 4%.

 

For absorb, you get nothing.

 

Totaled up, this means that a Juggernaut is going to have 17% additional defense, 6% additional K/E damage reduction, 10% additional I/E damage reduction, and 4% additional shield chance.

 

Now let's look at Powertech for the same values:

 

Ion Gas Cylinder provides 60% additional armor and 5% damage reduction. 16% additional armor (for a total of 76%; it's additive, not multiplicative) and 4% additional damage reduction from talents (Powered Armor and Ion Screen). The 16% additional armor equates to *roughly* 2% additional K/E damage reduction.

 

For defense, you get nothing.

 

For shield chance, you get the standard 15% from your tank stance and 12% from talents.

 

For absorb, you get 6%.

 

In addition, PTs get a 4% damage debuff they maintain on targets at all times.

 

Totaled up, this means a Powertech is going to get 11% additional K/E damage reduction, 9% additional I/E damage reduction, 12% better shield chance, and 6% additional absorb.

 

Now, let's compare the two mitigation amounts holistically. For this, I'm going to make a couple assumptions here. From gear, I'm going to assume that armor before the 16% additional for the PT equates to 30% K/E reduction, defense is bolstered by 5% (with a base of 5%), shield (with the basic 20% chance) is bolstered by 10%, and absorption is bolstered by 15% (with a basic 20% absorb). I'm also going to assume that all of the attacks in question are melee/ranged and deal K/E damage for simplicity's sake. Getting into the various attack types and the proportions of them would overcomplicate everything.

 

In the initial roll, a Juggernaut will be hit by 73% (100 - (5 + 5 + 17)) of incoming attacks. Of the attacks that hit, a Juggernaut will shield 34% (20 + 10 + 4) and take 35% (20 + 15) less damage from those attacks. Of all damage taken, a Juggernaut will take 65% (100 - (30 + 6)) of it.

 

Doing the math (.73 hit * (1 - (.34 shield * .35 absorb)) * .64 reduction), the Juggernaut would take 41.1% of the damage in question.

 

In the initial roll, a Powertech will be hit by 90% (100 - (5 + 5)) of incoming attacks. Of the attacks that hit, a Powertech will shield 52% (20 + 10 + 12) and take 41% (20 + 15 + 6) less damage from those attacks. Of all damage taken, A Powertech will take 59% (100 - (30 + 11)) of it.

 

Doing the math ((1 - .04) damage * 90% hit * (1 - (.52 shield * .41 absorb) * .59 reduction), the Powertech would take 40.1% of the damage in question.

 

Now, Juggernauts (and, by extension, Guardians) will definitely take damage in spikier amounts (a reliance on high amounts of defense will do that), but they'll take about the same amount of damage (the given numbers in no way indicate that the gear is optimized for the given classes in the least: Juggs do best when heavily stacking defense while PTs do best when heavily stacking Absorb and completely ignoring Defense). There isn't some grand disparity between the two. It's relatively minor and, since the game is in its early stages of play (and therefore analysis), it's to be expected.

 

Now, the other major factor in survivability is the cooldowns.

 

Juggernauts get Endure Pain, Saber Ward, and Invincible.

 

Endure Pain provides 30% additional health (equates to 23% (1 / 1.3) reduction in all incoming damage) with 8.3% uptime.

Saber Ward provides 100% melee/ranged mitigation for 1.1% uptime, 68.5% (1 - (.23 / .73)) melee/ranged mitigation for 5.5% uptime, and 27.7% (1 - (.65 / .9)) Force/Tech mitigation with 6.6% uptime.

Invincible provides 62.5% (1 - ((the full complete equation up above with .24 reduction instead = .154) / .411)) K/E mitigation and 44.4% (1 - (.5 /.9)) I/E mitigation with a 5.5% uptime.

 

Powertechs get Oil Slick, Energy Shield, and Kolto Overload.

 

Oil Slick provides 37% (1 - (.7 / .9)) melee/ranged mitigation with 30% uptime.

Energy Shield provides 42.3% (1 - (the full complete equation up above with .34 reduction instead = .241) / .418) K/E mitigation and 27% (1 - (.66 / .91)) I/E mitigation with 10% uptime.

Kolto Overload provides .125% (.15 / 120) hp/sec.

 

So, with all of the values fully averaged over time (mitigation * uptime) and summed up (since it's highly doubtful you'd even use them at the same time), Juggernauts get 4.6% additional mitigation of the most common types over time and Powertechs get 15.3% additional mitigation of the most common types over time and .125% hp/sec.

 

Since Guardians and Powertechs are functionally identical for the purposes of non-temporary mitigation, it's rather obvious that, because Guardian CDs are on such long CDs (hence the terrible values thanks to terrible uptimes), Powertechs have a *massive* advantage in terms of cooldown contribution.

 

The only mitigation "buffs" that Guardians need in relation to Powertechs (or nerfs needed by Powertechs in relation to Guardians) is a fix on the value of their CDs. Since Guardians get so much less out of their CDs, either Powertechs need to get *worse* CDs or Guardians need theirs to be better.

 

Next time, I add Shadows to my list of insane holistic survivability analysis!

 

This crit me for the same amount an agent can crit a level 10.

[CgSquall]

As a level 50 Juggernaut Tank...you say there are no "threat talents" in the first two tiers of Rage or Vengeance? You're entirely wrong.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGcubrouRZhGM.1

 

Look at the above build I made. Increasing damage of smash by 30%, lowering cooldown by 3% and increasing total strength by 6% and accuracy by 3%.

 

While they are not direct abilities, increased strength = more damage = more threat.

 

Increased accuracy = hitting more = more damage = more threat.

 

Smashing more often (which talented in the build I have above deals more damage than anything except Crushing Blow, Vicious Throw or Force Scream) with increased damage = more threat.

 

So while there are no abilities in the first two tiers of Vengeance and Rage that flat out say "increased threat", it's because they're not tanking trees, but if you're really a veteran of tanking in Rift you ought to know that decisions are never that black/white. Unless you were a Warrior tank of course, then spam your Spotter's Orders and move on, tanking in this game isn't quite so obvious or easy.

 

The bigger argument for Juggernaut/Powertech tanking in this game isn't regarding Mitigation at all. The migitation of all three tanks in a raid is completely viable. The issue is more in regards to threat.

 

Short version: Powertechs are the end-all AOE threat tank in the game.

 

Juggernauts are the end-all single target threat tank in the game.

 

This assumes both are specced right. The reasoning is that the Juggernaut has a lot of talents and single target damage capability so long as the target is attacking them (massive retaliation spam ftw).

 

Something most people don't consider when comparing the two tanks is Enrage vs Vent Hent.

 

They essentially do the same thing, except Enrage is on a 1 minute cd, Vent Heat is on a 2 minute cooldown. So generally speaking the longer the fight goes on (i.e. boss fights) the Juggernaut simply has more staying ability regarding their threat, hence the statement that a Juggernaut is a better single target tank, if they had all the same level of gear.

 

That argument is largely based off of what I have seen in-game as well. I've heard of many Powertech tanks (and seen 2 level 50 ones) have issues keeping bosses off of DPS. When it comes to single target, myself as a Juggernaut tank (while less geared than the two PT tanks previously mentioned) have never had an issue keeping bosses off of DPS.

 

Short version: Stop looking at pure mitigation numbers to consider which tank is the "Best". Especially considering BioWare has already stated they're going to "fix" Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut tanking in the first few months, which I'm assuming most of their cooldowns will be reduced from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.

[Sykomyke]

As a level 50 Juggernaut Tank...you say there are no "threat talents" in the first two tiers of Rage or Vengeance? You're entirely wrong.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGcubrouRZhGM.1

 

Look at the above build I made. Increasing damage of smash by 30%, lowering cooldown by 3% and increasing total strength by 6% and accuracy by 3%.

 

While they are not direct abilities, increased strength = more damage = more threat.

 

Increased accuracy = hitting more = more damage = more threat.

 

Smashing more often (which talented in the build I have above deals more damage than anything except Crushing Blow, Vicious Throw or Force Scream) with increased damage = more threat.

 

So while there are no abilities in the first two tiers of Vengeance and Rage that flat out say "increased threat", it's because they're not tanking trees, but if you're really a veteran of tanking in Rift you ought to know that decisions are never that black/white. Unless you were a Warrior tank of course, then spam your Spotter's Orders and move on, tanking in this game isn't quite so obvious or easy.

 

The bigger argument for Juggernaut/Powertech tanking in this game isn't regarding Mitigation at all. The migitation of all three tanks in a raid is completely viable. The issue is more in regards to threat.

 

Short version: Powertechs are the end-all AOE threat tank in the game.

 

Juggernauts are the end-all single target threat tank in the game.

 

This assumes both are specced right. The reasoning is that the Juggernaut has a lot of talents and single target damage capability so long as the target is attacking them (massive retaliation spam ftw).

 

Something most people don't consider when comparing the two tanks is Enrage vs Vent Hent.

 

They essentially do the same thing, except Enrage is on a 1 minute cd, Vent Heat is on a 2 minute cooldown. So generally speaking the longer the fight goes on (i.e. boss fights) the Juggernaut simply has more staying ability regarding their threat, hence the statement that a Juggernaut is a better single target tank, if they had all the same level of gear.

 

That argument is largely based off of what I have seen in-game as well. I've heard of many Powertech tanks (and seen 2 level 50 ones) have issues keeping bosses off of DPS. When it comes to single target, myself as a Juggernaut tank (while less geared than the two PT tanks previously mentioned) have never had an issue keeping bosses off of DPS.

 

Short version: Stop looking at pure mitigation numbers to consider which tank is the "Best". Especially considering BioWare has already stated they're going to "fix" Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut tanking in the first few months, which I'm assuming most of their cooldowns will be reduced from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.

 

You're really splitting hairs though. I understand that damage=threat. But you have to realize that extra damage is contingent upon actually hitting a target. And I realize that the other two trees aren't tanking trees....I'm not entirely sure why you mentioned that. Of course they wouldn't have anything with increased threat (Unless one was deemed to be an off-tank spec tree or something like that), but I don't consider straight damage talents to equate to more threat. Will they assist in it? Surely.

 

But my statement still stands: There are no direct threat talents in rage or vengeance.

And Powertechs have no trouble with single target damage. Ion Gas Cylinder's procs help make up for any single target damage loss they have. And the cooldowns that Juggernauts have for single target, versus the PT's AoE threat capabilities are negligible because of the powertech's shielding synergy.

 

A powertech's much higher shield rating, as stated earlier in the thread *is always on* meaning that the damage from a boss will be absorbed much more often.

 

And don't forget about the GCD bug with Juggernaut skills which directly affect your ability to use an attack while you are parrying/blocking/deflecting due to animation locking.

[AureoLion]

While the analysis is technically correct, it's done in the wrong way.

The analysis that matters isn't raw mitigation, but effective capacity to stay alive - which is NOT only the capacity to mitigate damage

 

Assuming cooldowns are used on the clock is pretty much ridicolous, in a world of infinite resources: unless you plan some strange cycle of going in low force / overheat / thatotherthing and recovering with the 'low' cooldowns.

 

Now, there's two usage of cooldowns.

'OH****IMLOW' and 'OH****THISISGONNAHURT'.

The powertech CDs will NOT get a tank out of any 'OH****IMLOW' situation.

Meanwhile, Saber Ward is a garaunteed 'get out' card for any melee-based boss, which are.. most of them.

 

While overhealing isn't much heard of, you still have to remember that tank deaths in tank-threatening situations aren't always planned. When an healer gets gibbed/whatever, it's gonna take atleast 2-3 seconds to ackowledge this from both you and your other healer point of views.

This means you're gonna get low before you're in the situation to do anything to help this.

If you're in the situation 'the next hit kills me':

Oil Slick has a ~30% chance to save you.

Energy Field has a 25% chance to save you.

The heal thing has 0% chance to save you.

 

Saber Ward has 100% chance to save.

Enduring Pain has 100% chance to save.

Invincible has 40% chance to save.

 

As you notice, the whole thing is just uncomparable.

 

Reality is that, unless there's a mini-enrage every minute or so, the chance of a juggernaut tank dying is much lower.

Those tank-threatening situations occur sporadically, often not even once a fight. So, the cooldown is hardly an issue.

 

Needing an additional 1-3% healing total isn't going to kill a tank, or make/break a comparison, in any possible way.

Having a 100% chance to get out of hairy situations is.

 

Also, for 'spikier damage': In a possible 'bad string', of, say four hits unshielded/unparried, the juggernaut, while having a bigger chance of it happening, has also a bigger chance of making it out alive due to marginally higher passive mitigation.

 

Tanking is planning for when the **** hits the fan, in making it less likely to happen, but first and foremost, in planning you're going to get out of it ALIVE. Planning for non-critical situations becomes relevant when you can effectively diminish the amount of healing needed by a noticeable amount, which, with the current (and effectively appreciable) math showed in this topic, is not the case.

 

Now, on to script a program that calculates death in 10k hits of a boss, given constant healing!

[AureoLion]

 

 

Endure Pain provides 30% additional health (equates to 23% (1 / 1.3) reduction in all incoming damage) with 8.3% uptime.

Also, i'm sorry, but this is utterly wrong.

On a damage-mitigation standpoint, Endure Pain does absolutely nothing.

In your possibility to survive, it does not augment your health by 30%, but by a a much larger percentage (remember, we're talking of critical, or potentially critical situations here), based on your CURRENT health.

If you're at 15%, it's a 200% gain. In a more realistical use at around 30%, it's still 100%.

Now, i don't know if you played WoW and theorycrafted upon it (I would assume you did), but there was a reason the Ardent Defender auto-resurrection of the paladin was so ridicolously overpowered: It saved you exactely when it was needed, adding 30% hp upon nothing - which is just not comparable with any other cd.

[Xenon-se]

Sykomyke, you really need to come down from your high horse and stop insulting people left and right just because you don't agree with them - or if they don't agree with you. Or, as the case is here, do agree with you and even tries to support your conclusion with a full page of solid numbers. You are kinda lowering the insult bar for an otherwise perfectly good theocrafting thread. Try to act mature, please.

 

"reduced accuracy (which is RNG) and one is straight damage reduction (not RNG)".

 

5% lower chance to hit = 5% reduced damage

5% lower damage per hit = 5% reduced damage

 

Why can you not compare the two?

 

 

"...but I don't consider straight damage talents to equate to more threat"

 

Damage done (and healing done) cause threat. More damage (or healing) is equal to more threat. If not, then damage roles (or healers) would never be in risk of stealing aggro in the first place...

 

Soresu Form state: "...and increasing threat generation by 50%."

 

One point of damage is equal to at least one point of threat. If you are in Soresu Form one point of damage is equal to one and a half point of threat.

 

Straight damage talents do equate to more threat. Trust me.

 

 

 

Not trying to side-track the topic here, but...

 

Just starting to run a hard modes and tank world bosses with my Assassin. My sorc healer found it easier to keep up my Assassin compared to a Juggernaught clanmate that used to run the same instance for him. Yet [some] people claim Assassin is in the worst state of the three. Would be nice if someone (I might do that if i get a few hours of spare time) could include Assassin in the overview as well. Would love to read your thoughts and how all three compare against eachother.

 

Self healing is a form of damage mitigation, however, the version Assassins have scale poor (or not at all rather) to bosses that deal higher damage per second. But it does scale with better equipment and is getting a buff in patch 1.1

 

Is the general consensus that Assassins are very well suited for Flashpoints but not so much as MT in nightmare Ops?

 

Regards

Edited January 11, 2012 by Xenon-se

[Sykomyke]

Sykomyke, you really need to come down from your high horse and stop insulting people left and right just because you don't agree with them - or if they don't agree with you. Or, as the case is here, do agree with you and even tries to support your conclusion with a full page of solid numbers. You are kinda lowering the insult bar for an otherwise perfectly good theocrafting thread. Try to act mature, please.

 

"reduced accuracy (which is RNG) and one is straight damage reduction (not RNG)".

 

5% lower chance to hit = 5% reduced damage

5% lower damage per hit = 5% reduced damage

 

Why can you not compare the two?

 

 

"...but I don't consider straight damage talents to equate to more threat"

 

Damage done (and healing done) cause threat. More damage (or healing) is equal to more threat. If not, then damage roles (or healers) would never be in risk of stealing aggro in the first place...

 

Soresu Form state: "...and increasing threat generation by 50%."

 

One point of damage is equal to at least one point of threat. If you are in Soresu Form one point of damage is equal to one and a half point of threat.

 

Straight damage talents do equate to more threat. Trust me.

 

 

 

Not trying to side-track the topic here, but...

 

Just starting to run a hard modes and tank world bosses with my Assassin. My sorc healer found it easier to keep up my Assassin compared to a Juggernaught clanmate that used to run the same instance for him. Yet [some] people claim Assassin is in the worst state of the three. Would be nice if someone (I might do that if i get a few hours of spare time) could include Assassin in the overview as well. Would love to read your thoughts and how all three compare against eachother.

 

Self healing is a form of damage mitigation, however, the version Assassins have scale poor (or not at all rather) to bosses that deal higher damage per second. But it does scale with better equipment and is getting a buff in patch 1.1

 

Is the general consensus that Assassins are very well suited for Flashpoints but not so much as MT in nightmare Ops?

 

Regards

 

You are correct, given an effective parsing over a long period of time -5% accuracy is 5% less damage. Given the context of a specific fight say....Hard Mode Boarding Party. You may never see the returns of -5% accuracy in a specific fight.

 

5% reduced accuracy is a CHANCE at the enemy missing you. NEVER GUARANTEED. EVER.

 

Combust is a GUARANTEED 4% damage reduction. As long as the effect is applied to an enemy they will positively, without a doubt, ALWAYS DEAL 96% of their effective damage to you (pre-mitigation).

 

You, like many, are under the false assumptions of the "Gambler's Fallacy". Just because parsing something over a series of fights results in a theorized 5% reduction in damage, because accuracy is based upon hit chance (which is RNG) it's not guaranteed.

 

I do appreciate the thought process on Soresu form though. I never thought about it in that light, where Soresu form increases threat generated, so therefore straight damage buffs do gain increased threat. On a technical standpoint though...my statement still holds true though; that no direct threat talents exist in the other two trees .

 

For clarification a threat talent is one that lists it as such; like Backhand. While extra damage does generate extra threat, this can't be considered a threat talent unless the talent specifically states that it generates extra threat through the use of a specific skill.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/gGGAmYI/backhand

See the above link for what I'm talking about.

 

I honestly have no idea about assassins. I haven't leveled one past 13 (was in beta).

[DarkwingGT]

I've been tanking for almost 7+ years now and I can tell the one truth that has endured across every MMO

 

Guarenteed >>>>> Chance

 

Be it in the form of avoidance vs mitigation (healers have ALWAYS preferred higher steady damage intake than lower average with spikes) or passive vs active (Whenever given a choice, it's ALWAYS better to take passive because enemies like to CC, be out of range, etc. and actives are always made more powerful because their actives but that for some reason also means then need some severe drawback like incredibly low uptime).

 

Unless the numbers are vastly skewed in favor of the chance, in the end it always follows the same pattern. First people theorycraft how it'll be the same (But 50% avoidance = 50% damage reduction over time!). Then people accept it because they're doing easy content. Finally people get around to tough content and the chance based tanks all get dropped because of bosses spike them to death before healers can respond. Followed by the developers saying that they'll "keep an eye on it". Queue several months of back and forth on the forums and then finally the chance based tanks are buffed.

 

So how about for once the devs wise up and see the writing on the wall?

Edited January 11, 2012 by DarkwingGT

[AureoLion]

I've been tanking for almost 7+ years now and I can tell the one truth that has endured across every MMO

 

Guarenteed >>>>> Chance

passive vs active

Since the bosses had 'burn' phases, CDs were better than consistent bonuses, on itemizations.

-50% damage for 9 seconds, on a 180s cd, is vastly superior to -2% constant damage.

[Ellnassil]

Funny things, Juggs whine all over the day but have the best Tank Cooldowns ingame. It ****s me up, that a Juggernaut Tank will allways perform better on SOA Hardmode than me just because of the class.

 

I cannot understand why Juggs are crying a river about Deff Ratings, when they have the ability to feast every Lighting Ball Phase one of them with a 40% Damage Reduction.

 

Deff CD´s of Juggs are too overpowered at the moment and should be nerfed or the other classes should be brought to the same level.

[Sykomyke]

Since the bosses had 'burn' phases, CDs were better than consistent bonuses, on itemizations.

-50% damage for 9 seconds, on a 180s cd, is vastly superior to -2% constant damage.

 

Nice point of choosing random numbers that favor your argument

 

Let's take your example and assume that you are fighting a mob that does 100/dps.

 

In your example comparing someone who had a "cooldown" skill versus someone with constant mitigation:

 

2% damage reduction over the period of 180 seconds equates to 360 damage negated.

50% damage reduction for 9 seconds equates to 450 damage negated.

 

If you increase that % increase by A SINGLE PERCENT to 3%, you vastly outshine the "awesome cooldown skill".

 

1% increase to the constant damage will boost it to 540 damage negated FYI.

 

 

And again, your numbers are arbitrary random numbers so they have no relevance on the game itself, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Sykomyke

[tongzy]

 

If you increase that % increase by A SINGLE PERCENT to 3%, you vastly outshine the "awesome cooldown skill".

 

For the most part, tank deaths in hard content don't come from a long fight of attrition where the healers eventually run out of resources, large spikes of damage and high damage phases are.

 

A 50% mitigation tanking CD is definitely competitive with 3% flat reduction. Which is better will probably come down to individual fights, and the number of CDs already available.

[Kitru]

Time to add Assassins/Shadows to ye olde comparisone.

 

First off, I will state that I am going to be providing Shadows with 2 different mitigation numbers: with and without Kinetic Ward; the first will largely operate for ST damage while the second will be the best example for AoE damage (since Kinetic Ward vanishes in a puff of smoke when more than 1 or 2 targets are attacking).

 

Secondly, I'm also going to state that I *assume* Stasis (tier 5 Kinetic Combat talent 20% armor buff) is *multiplicative* rather than additive (I haven't received confirmation about this from any source) simply because, if it's not, Shadows are going to have substantially worse armor ratings than either PTs or Juggs (using the Rakata raid gear, the totals would be ~770 armor from the "big" armor pieces with additive and ~855 with multiplicative; heavy armor pieces with the 60% armor buff for tanking stances get ~860 armor). If they *aren't* multiplicative, it's definitely a problem since Shadows are going to be getting damage reduction contributions from armor that are vastly sub-par to the other tanks. Stasis would need to get bumped up to a 50% armor buff if they are additive.

 

Thirdly, I'm going to be ignoring the Shadow/Assassin largely passive self-healing (Combat Technique/Dark Charge and Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness) because, for one, the first is pretty much a joke (50 healing every 2-3 secs or so is pretty friggin' terrible when you have 18-20k hp), and the second because, assuming an average 30 sec use cycle on TK Throw/Force Lightning, Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness only provide 72 hp/sec which can mean something in a solo scenario but means next to nothing in raid DPS scenarios (~4k incoming DPS translates to 1.8% damage mitigation which wouldn't appreciably change the end mitigation numbers since that would just be a .978 multiplier added at the end). In addition, it's problematic because it would require assumption of a standard Hp value and standard incoming damage quantity before mitigation, neither of which is reliable since gearing choices and group composition and the fight itself can heavily influence are the primary defining factors of those attributes, respectively.

 

So, on with the show...

 

For target damage reduction, Shadows get 5% from Slow Time.

 

For outright damage reduction, Shadows get 150% additional armor from their tank stance, 20% additional armor from Stasis, and 2% additional damage reduction from talents.

 

For shield chance, they get 15% while Kinetic Ward is up and nothing while it is down.

 

For absorption, they get 4% additional from talents.

 

For defense chance, they get 5% more by default (10% base defense chance rather than 5%) and a further 6% more via talents. In addition, they also get a 5% accuracy debuff.

 

To reiterate the assumptions made for the others as well, all damage is assumed to be melee/ranged K/E damage and the gains from stats are 5% Defense, 10% Shield, and 15% Absorb.

 

Doing the math (.95 damage * .74 hit * (1 - (.45 shield * .39 absorb)) * .68 reduction), a Shadow would take 39.4% of the incoming damage with Kinetic Ward active (re: single enemy fight). Without Kinetic Ward, a Shadow would take ((.95 damage * .74 hit * (1 - (.3 shield * .39 absorb)) * .68 reduction) 42.2% of incoming damage.

 

Basic conclusions of this, Shadows mitigate the most ST damage but mitigate the *least* AoE damage; this makes sense when you consider that one of their most powerful mitigation tools is functionally worthless for AoE situations.

 

Overall, the damage mitigation is relatively similar. Juggs have the worst average mitigation, but it is close enough to that of Shadows and PTs to only be of marginal difference (and within the realm of stat tweak optimization equivalence). In ST scenarios, Shadows only take 98% of the damage that PTs do, 96% of the damage that Juggs do, and PTs only take 97.5% of the damage that Juggs take. None of those values are really substantial enough to make a fuss about.

 

(If Stasis *isn't* multiplicative and is instead additive, damage reduction would go down by about ~10%, from 30% to ~27%, changing those damage taken numbers to 41.1% and 44%, making Shadows the outright *worst* tanks since they would only be *on-par* with Juggernauts, *at best*, and substantially worse than both at worst (taking 10% more damage than PTs and 7% more damage than Juggs in AoE situations, which isn't within the realm of gear optimization equivalence))

 

Getting on to CDs.

 

Shadows get Deflection, Resilience, and Battle Readiness.

 

Deflection provides 67% (1 - .24 / .74) melee/ranged mitigation with 10% uptime.

Resilience provides 100% Force/Tech mitigation with 11.1% uptime.

Battle Readiness provides .125% ((.1 + ~.05) / 120) hp/sec.

 

Summed up (which is amusing since Shadows only have a single CD to sum up for this discussion), this means that Shadows get 6.7% additional mitigation to the common types and .125% hp/sec. PTs are *still* looking pretty good, largely in part to having generalized rather than specific CDs (Resilience is *amazing* but it only applies to Force/Tech attacks which aren't nearly as common in PvE scenarios). Oil Slick is simply *amazing* contribution compared to the other CDs. Without it, PTs would start looking a little more balanced, but the only way to do that is to factor in the average contribution of it into the average mitigation numbers that were *already* favoring PTs.

 

As it stands, no matter how you factor in Oil Slick, it's pretty much the one thing that makes PTs better than any of the other Tanks at the moment (massive uptime, large mitigation). Remove it, and everything starts looking *much* more equal. Since I doubt the devs will be *removing* it any time soon, the only real case would be to weaken it (by extending the CD to 2 mins or longer) while simultaneously buffing Guards/Juggs by reducing the length of the cooldowns of their CDs (Warding Call/Invincible and Enure/Endure Pain on 2 min CDs instead of 3 min).

 

Still, all of this fits in line with the conclusions of the first analysis pairing; the only *new* conclusions that can be drawn are that, if Armor buffs really are additive and not multiplicative, Assassins/Shadows are pretty much hosed for mitigation purposes and Kinetic Ward/Dark Ward needs some tweaking to not be useless in mutli-target situations unless the devs *specifically* want Sins/Shads to be sub-par AoE tanks.

[Resipsal]

I don't like breaking up quotes, because it's a sign of the unintelligent as they aren't able to discern any argument except in it's basest form. (I.e. sentance by sentance).

 

On the contrary, an argument is only as strong as its supporting assertions. By responding to each assertion individually, you can create a nuanced response that acknowledges both the good and bad. This is what Kitru did to you: disagreed with you on some points but agreed on others (including your conclusion).

 

If you insist on treating arguments as binary (agree or disagree holistically), you limit your ability to agree and improve your work.

 

 

 

But your rebuttal leaves me no choice but to strawman each section as you have done.

 

Strawman doesn't mean you break the argument up into straws. Strawman is arguing against a distorted and weaker version of your opponent's argument ("the strawman") instead of the real one they actually submitted.

[DarkwingGT]

Since the bosses had 'burn' phases, CDs were better than consistent bonuses, on itemizations.

-50% damage for 9 seconds, on a 180s cd, is vastly superior to -2% constant damage.

 

To a degree it's true, but then we're trying to look at mitigation / avoidance in a comparison fashion. To my knowledge they will not include something that requires a CD to live through unless they give each tank a CD to use for such an event, i.e. not a valid comparison because it's very existence is predicated on everyone having something that will work equally effectively for that event.

 

I'm speaking about the random variances they like to give in your average TTL scenario. Also, specific phases that require CDs in particular also give worse usage of active mitigation CDs because you must save them for that phase. For those that remember Algalon for WOW, he had an attack that must be eaten by someone and that someone must live through it alone. This meant you had to save your Shield Wall (or equivalent) for that particular attack. This effectively took that out of your basic TTL calculations.