[Watchman] When do you pop Zen?

[FourTwent]

Just curious to get an idea of when people are popping their Zen buff during combat?

 

Lately I've been noticing that I will hold off until Cauterize is off timer and will activate it during the leap of Cauterize(it usually goes off at the end of his downward swing).

 

I wanted to know if people just use it right when they hit 30 stacks(even if cauterize is on timer) or if they wait until both cauterize and overloaded saber is off timer, etc.

Edited January 4, 2012 by FourTwent

[spriing]

I generally only use it on champions.

 

I will Force Leap in hit Overload Saber then Zealous Strike, Cauterize, Master Strike, and then pop Zen. This way I get the 3 stacks of Overload Saber and the Cauterize Dot criting on Zen.

 

Although it may be better to go with Cauterize as the 3rd hit for more up time on all of the dots when I pop Zen.

Edited January 4, 2012 by spriing

[Maefly]

I played around with this quite a bit and found the best use of Zen is immediately after you get three stacks of Overload Saber on the target. OS will only consume 3 of the 6 Zen stacks. I then fill with a global and apply Cauterize.

 

This allows the Zen state to Crit all three OS stacks and half of the Cauterize stacks. I see a 1k OS crit and about 350 Cauterize Crits for a total Zen damage of about 4k.

 

If you go the other way and use it with only Cauterize, it will consume all 6 stacks and you'll only see about 2k damage.

 

Overload Saber at 3 stacks has the higher base damage which means the crit multiplier will be that much larger and it would seem to be in our best interest to use Zen with 3 stacks OS and no Cauterize ticking and then later apply cauterize to consume the remaining 3 Zen stacks.

 

Still working the numbers on this but this seems to be the most efficient use of Zen.

[Fascion]

Solo, I don't use Zen at all. Never really need to.

 

 

 

In groups, fairly rarely. Because our build all but dictates that Cauterize be used on refresh for DPS, windows for it's usefulness are limited. If I just happen to have a full stack of Centering, and my healers look to need the help, and Cauterize comes off cooldown... I'll consider using it.

 

More often than not, though, I use my Centering on Transcendence (especially on encounters with knockback elements.) Any DPS that would have been gained by guaranteed Cauterize crits is easily made up for by a single attack made for having returned to the boss sooner, while also helping the defenses of our tank.

 

 

 

In PVP... I would like to use Zen more, but I find Transcendence to be more useful as a whole just about every time I build up to a 30-stack.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Fascion

[FourTwent]

I played around with this quite a bit and found the best use of Zen is immediately after you get three stacks of Overload Saber on the target. OS will only consume 3 of the 6 Zen stacks. I then fill with a global and apply Cauterize.

 

This allows the Zen state to Crit all three OS stacks and half of the Cauterize stacks. I see a 1k OS crit and about 350 Cauterize Crits for a total Zen damage of about 4k.

 

If you go the other way and use it with only Cauterize, it will consume all 6 stacks and you'll only see about 2k damage.

 

Overload Saber at 3 stacks has the higher base damage which means the crit multiplier will be that much larger and it would seem to be in our best interest to use Zen with 3 stacks OS and no Cauterize ticking and then later apply cauterize to consume the remaining 3 Zen stacks.

 

Still working the numbers on this but this seems to be the most efficient use of Zen.

 

ty very much for taking the time to do the tests and the math. I am very interested in your results.

[SteveGarbage]

I only use Zen when I think I'm going to need the health boost. Usually that's when my HP drops to around 50 percent or if I'm getting swamped and it seems like it's dropping fast.

 

Then, of course, I wait until I'll be able to use both Overload Saber and Cauterize in quick succession so I get the immediate effect of it.

 

The other time I pop it is in Heroics of Flashpoints where it looks like our party is getting beat down and the healer is having a hard time keeping up. That way it gives everyone a little boost and can give our Sage a bit of time to catch his/her breath.

[Blackfriar]

Just curious to get an idea of when people are popping their Zen buff during combat?

 

Lately I've been noticing that I will hold off until Cauterize is off timer and will activate it during the leap of Cauterize(it usually goes off at the end of his downward swing).

 

I wanted to know if people just use it right when they hit 30 stacks(even if cauterize is on timer) or if they wait until both cauterize and overloaded saber is off timer, etc.

 

I try to save it for big fights. I think that hitting trash mobs on the way to the boss is not the best use for it.

[MaugrimTyk]

I played around with this quite a bit and found the best use of Zen is immediately after you get three stacks of Overload Saber on the target. OS will only consume 3 of the 6 Zen stacks. I then fill with a global and apply Cauterize.

 

I think this is quite a key points, i've been working on it for a while to get the highest numbers out of Zen. Because we get a % damage increase with crits, we should apply it on the highest dot available, with the overload saber crits, sounds right, right?

[Nyliana]

#1 best use of zen for damage is getting all 6 procs with overload saber on 3 stacks.

 

To do this you need to draw out the cooldown for overload saber

 

 

1. Build up focus
   
2. Use Overload Saber
   
3. Slash or Strike to get 1 stack
   
4. Blade Storm
   
5. Slash or Strike to get 2 stacks and refresh dot timer
   
6. Sweep + Force Attack Or Grasp
   
7. Use Zen and Slash or Strike to get 3 stacks and refresh dot timer
   

 

 

You can fill in with force attacks or better slashes/strikes/zealous where you like. The idea remains the same. I am lvl 38

 

Overload saber will be up again while you still have 3 stacks of Overload Saber on the mob.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[Coramac]

It's also better to try to avoid using a lot of focus attacks while Zen is up. It's better to start hording Focus (never waste it of course). You can't build Centering while it is up.

[Coramac]

#1 best use of zen for damage is getting all 6 procs with overload saber on 3 stacks.

 

To do this you need to draw out the cooldown for overload saber

 

1. Build up focus
   
2. Use Overload Saber
   
3. Slash or Strike to get 1 stack
   
4. Blade Storm
   
5. Slash or Strike to get 2 stacks and refresh dot timer
   
6. Sweep + Force Attack Or Grasp
   
7. Use Zen and Slash or Strike to get 3 stacks and refresh dot timer
   

 

You can fill in with force attacks or better slashes/strikes/zealous where you like. The idea remains the same. I am lvl 38

 

Overload saber will be up again while you still have 3 stacks of Overload Saber on the mob.

 

I don't think you should be using Blade Storm. Slash is going to have a much better damage to Focus ratio. You're probably losing out on a lot of potential damage by not using Cauterize during that time also.

[Nyliana]

I don't think you should be using Blade Storm. Slash is going to have a much better damage to Focus ratio. You're probably losing out on a lot of potential damage by not using Cauterize during that time also.

 

You use cauterize before doing this rotation.

Blade Storm deals more than slash, at my level slash crits for 580, bladestorm for 1015. Focus to damage is slightly less (notwithstanding potential cooldown redux on cauterize), however more importantly, blade storm does not trigger cauterize.

 

You're missing the point and question of the OP - it looks like you read up to "blade storm" and insta-posted.

 

And you are NOT losing out on potential damage by not using cauterize. Cauterize crits for 147 at my lvl, overload saber on 3 stacks crits for 515. Please at least TEST and look at your numbers before posting what you think it does. If we did what these other people have posted, or what you're suggesting, you would lose out on 1104 damage if you used Cauterize for the remaining three stacks of zen instead of overload saber.

 

Using cauterize + overload saber at the same time is a mistake. You miss out on precious focus generation.

 

Do I think you should not use cauterize at all? Of course not.

Should cauterize be used when overload saber is on cooldown and zen isn't up? Damn right.

 

Numbers are rough because of variance in the abilities, all tested on the same champion level mob.

 

EDIT: For clarification and typos.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[SteveGarbage]

Blade Storm deals more than slash, at my level slash crits for 780, bladestorm for 1015. Focus to damage is better

 

Ummm, I disagree?

Blade Storm - 4 focus - (1015/4) = 253.75 per Focus

Slash - 3 focus - (580/3) = 193.33per Focus

Slash with focus refund talent maxed - 2 focus (although you need to have three built to use) - (580/2) = 290 per Focus

 

The only redeeming quality Blade Storm has is that it can stun to set up use of Pommel Strike - however, since the stun effect doesn't really affect anything less than garbage mobs, even that utility is pointless, since you can get the same stun effect from Force Sweep which, if talented, only costs 1 Focus.

 

Blade Storm has been completely removed from my skillset. There are no situations in which it is useful to me anymore. In other trees, Blade Storm has its purpose, but in the Watchman tree it is completely useless. Toss it out of your hotbar because you have other, better skills you need to be using on a constant basis.

 

EDIT: Edited to reflect your edit, but even still, the same basic argument exists. At the two focus cost with the Slash refund talented, Slash is still superior. Although it requires three focus to activate, it only costs two, making it more cost effective.

 

And as you mentioned, since at later levels Slash gives a chance to finish the cooldown of Cauterize (one of the most important Watchman skills) it has even more utility.

Edited January 4, 2012 by SteveGarbage

[Nyliana]

Ummm, I disagree?

Blade Storm - 4 focus - (1015/4) = 253.75 per Focus

Slash - 3 focus - (580/3) = 193.33per Focus

Slash with focus refund talent maxed - 2 focus (although you need to have three built to use) - (580/2) = 290 per Focus

 

The only redeeming quality Blade Storm has is that it can stun to set up use of Pommel Strike - however, since the stun effect doesn't really affect anything less than garbage mobs, even that utility is pointless, since you can get the same stun effect from Force Sweep which, if talented, only costs 1 Focus.

 

Blade Storm has been completely removed from my skillset. There are no situations in which it is useful to me anymore. In other trees, Blade Storm has its purpose, but in the Watchman tree it is completely useless. Toss it out of your hotbar because you have other, better skills you need to be using on a constant basis.

 

EDIT: Edited to reflect your edit, but even still, the same basic argument exists. At the two focus cost with the Slash refund talented, Slash is still superior. Although it requires three focus to activate, it only costs two, making it more cost effective.

 

And as you mentioned, since at later levels Slash gives a chance to finish the cooldown of Cauterize (one of the most important Watchman skills) it has even more utility.

 

Agreed on the damage/focus

 

I was re-reading my own thinking blade storm was 3 focus the whole time, then used it and realized it was 4.

 

However, the point was regarding overload saber procs for zen procs. I don't use bladestorm at any other time, unless I'm running away from a boss or want to interrupt something on a small mob. The point of not using slash here is because slash adds a stack of Overload Saber.

 

This is not a Blade Storm vs Slash discussion, despite being incorrect by a small margin on one particular point, my rotation for Zen will deal more damage than slashes, 3 zen procs overload saber, and 3 procs cauterize.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[Coramac]

You use cauterize before doing this rotation.

Blade Storm deals more than slash, at my level slash crits for 780, bladestorm for 1015. Focus to damage is better (notwithstanding potential cooldown redux on cauterize). Also, you're missing the point and question of the OP - it looks like you read up to "blade storm" and insta-posted.

 

Nope. I didn't misread. You shouldn't be using Blade Storm. 4 Focus for 1015 vs. 2 Focus for 780. In almost every situation, this is not a difficult decision. Granted, you do get a GCD advantage with Blade Storm. It's not worth it here.

 

And you are NOT losing out on potential damage by not using cauterize. Cauterize crits for 147 at my lvl, overload saber on 3 stacks crits for 515. Please at least TEST and look at your numbers before posting what you think it does. If we did what these other people have posted, or what you're suggesting, you would lose out on 1104 damage if you used Cauterize for the remaining three stacks of zen instead of overload saber.

 

You are gaining damage caused purely by Zen and losing out on total damage. This is false- Overload Saber deals damage on hit. The first tick of the second overload loses out on 24 damage vs. a Cauterize tick. The second tick will do 110 more damage. The third tick will do 368 more damage. The total damage increase in terms of forced crits is 502- 45.5% of what you allege. You are better off not trying to maximize the added damage from Zen. Using Cauterize and starting earlier on your next Zen is far superior. This is amplified if you have Defensive Forms at which point your method falls very far behind if you are taking any kind of damage.

 

Using cauterize + overload saber at the same time is a mistake. You miss out on precious focus generation.

 

It's a pretty marginal loss. Overload ticks slowly- on application and every 3 seconds. With the low proc chance, you are looking at minimal overwriting.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Coramac

[Nyliana]

1. Nope. I didn't misread. You shouldn't be using Blade Storm. 4 Focus for 1015 vs. 2 Focus for 780. In almost every situation, this is not a difficult decision. Granted, you do get a GCD advantage with Blade Storm. It's not worth it here.
    
   
2. You are gaining damage caused purely by Zen and losing out on total damage. This is false- Overload Saber deals damage on hit. The first tick of the second overload loses out on 24 damage vs. a Cauterize tick. The second tick will do 110 more damage. The third tick will do 368 more damage. The total damage increase in terms of forced crits is 502- 45.5% of what you allege. You are better off not trying to maximize the added damage from Zen. Using Cauterize and starting earlier on your next Zen is far superior. This is amplified if you have Defensive Forms at which point your method falls very far behind if you are taking any kind of damage.
    
   
3. It's a pretty marginal loss. Overload ticks slowly- on application and every 3 seconds. With the low proc chance, you are looking at minimal overwriting.
   

 

1. Yes it's less - I was thinking Blade Storm was three focus not four. However, it is marginally less. As previously mentioned Blade Storm isn't part of my normal rotation, and this is used to draw out the overload saber cooldown. Which when paired with zen for 6 procs at 3 stacks WAY outdoes the marginal loss required.

 

2. You don't use zen when you use overload. You use zen when you have three stacks of overload already. Again, you're missing it.

 

3. A marginal loss in damage is still a loss in damage. I'd rather deal more, not less. You basically just said "It's okay to deal less damage as long as it's not very much."

 

Show me the math for getting zen back up sooner. You're speculating, and I'm trying not to. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying prove it. The next Zen is a max of 3 GCD's further away than normal, considering the 3 force attacks used, unless there is something I'm missing.

 

 

The two people that have argued with this rotation are arguing the focus/damage of particular abilities and not looking at the overall POINT of doing it. You're doing it to get 6 zen procs off of a 3 stack overload.

 

Edit: I Want combat logs and dummies so we can find which truly is better. Currently how I'm doing things *feels* stronger than the other way of just spamming cauterize incessantly. But there is no true way to test and compare.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[Coramac]

2. You don't use zen when you use overload. You use zen when you have three stacks of overload already. Again, you're missing it.

 

The point is that this is an impossibility. You can get it on a maximum of 4, not six. I don't really have too much of an issue with waiting on the first three- although if you have Defensive Forms, it will be a loss if you are taking damage. Overload deals damage in three ticks- at T0, T3, and T6. You do not generate Centering while the Zen buff is up. As a result, you have to balance two things- prioritizing crits on Overload and minimizing the time Zen is up. The faster it goes down, the sooner you can have another 30 Centering. And as a note, you can get there very, very quickly. The best way I've found to do this is Overload, applie twice, Zen, apply, next GCD Cauterize. Cauterize ticks every second. This gives you 2 crits on 3 charge Overloads and kills the Zen within 5 seconds. By the time you have completed your use of Zen, I'm more than halfway to my second Zen.

 

Additionally, if you want to maximize procs on Overload, you need to use Zen before the third charge of Overload.

 

3. Show me the math here. You're speculating, and I'm trying not to. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying prove it. The next Zen is a max of 3 GCD's further away than normal, considering the 3 force attacks used, unless there is something I'm missing.

 

Your way takes up 15+ seconds. My way takes up 5 seconds. In that 10+ second Window, if I am taking damage, I have generated another Zen. That's all you need to know. Taking damage at every 2 seconds, I have another 8-12 Centering. Using Focus generating attacks, I have either have or almost have generated the remaining amount through my attacks.

 

You are missing Defensive Forms. You may not have that yet. Additionally, you are also missing that it is much further than 3 GCDs away even without it.

 

Just as a note, you may want to pick up that talent before Merciless Slash. It's definitely better for leveling.

 

...

 

Not retyping that, but you are delaying the Overload procs by using non-melee? That's not as bad of an idea as what I believed you were doing. This is actually pretty creative. You still can't hit 6 Overload 3 charge crits, but you can hit 5. Those 3 GCDs are going to put you behind a good bit on the Centering, ~12-16 Centering probably. Delaying Cauterize is going to hurt your damage, but you are going to make up some of that on the Overload. Interesting idea. I'd have to think more about it before Defensive Forms; however, your idea may be exceptional for PvP... You could set up monumental burst like this. Would be tricky and risky to attempt, but pretty good insta-gib potential.

 

It seems like you are going to almost always run over on Center generation.

 

The two people that have argued with this rotation are arguing the focus/damage of particular abilities and not looking at the overall POINT of doing it. You're doing it to get 6 zen procs off of a 3 stack overload.

 

Still not possible, your best bet is for a single 2 charge and five 3 charge.

 

Edit: I Want combat logs and dummies so we can find which truly is better. Currently how I'm doing things *feels* stronger than the other way of just spamming cauterize incessantly. But there is no true way to test and compare.

 

I agree. I didn't understand what you were doing.

[Nyliana]

 

...

 

Not retyping that, but you are delaying the Overload procs by using non-melee? That's not as bad of an idea as what I believed you were doing. This is actually pretty creative. You still can't hit 6 Overload 3 charge crits, but you can hit 5. Those 3 GCDs are going to put you behind a good bit on the Centering, ~12-16 Centering probably. Delaying Cauterize is going to hurt your damage, but you are going to make up some of that on the Overload. Interesting idea. I'd have to think more about it before Defensive Forms; however, your idea may be exceptional for PvP... You could set up monumental burst like this. Would be tricky and risky to attempt, but pretty good insta-gib potential.

 

 

HE GETS IT \o/

 

I am talking single target DPS on a bossmob. idc about taking damage from normal agro as I'm not supposed to have it anyway. Works in PVP too, but PVP is a bit too dynamic to be able to pull it off regularly. When I do it hurts though.

 

if the boss has any sort of mechanic where you have to run away from it (like that one super Sith in Taral V) you can time your blade storm with it the overloads to super maximize damage, since you would be using blade storm anyway.

 

You can still use cauterize. Cauterize applies a tick of Overload... just have to use it for the first tick, and cauterize will wear off by the time you're ready to use Zen (I think, I need to re-test that, memory fading on that one).

 

 

Still not possible, your best bet is for a single 2 charge and five 3 charge.

Good point, the reason is because you're refreshing the stacks, and you miss out on a T3 tick. (for those that don't get it)

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[MaugrimTyk]

This is interesting, doing it the way described can give you a very long 3 stacked saber dot, trying out some different ways and with no presure you can get very nice results like this

[Riotus]

you want to have your burn moves ie overload saber ready to use then use zen, this way all your burns crit and u get the heals, its a great method to get some quick self heals in .

[MaugrimTyk]

I am trying to figure out the following though:

 

When 3 stack saber is ticking, and a Cauterize is ticking, and then zen is used....

 

Which burn tick does zen take to crit and heal, and why?

 

It is so hard to see because the numbers go by to fast, but to me it SEEMS that the zen crit is always the same number, so therefore I have been thinking it is always critting the highest burn, the 3 stacked saber burn.

 

Any thoughts on this? because wouldn't it be awesome if this was the case, then the method mentioned above could include cauterize without a problem and increase damage overall?

 

edit, i'm asuming that I have the 3x saber tick up for the same time, or longer then cauterize with this scenario

 

edit2 I supposed I confused the saber ward 'effect cannot occure more then once per 1.5 seconds' with zen, it simply takes every single crit, so the 6 charges are gone within a second, and it just takes the crit in order it comes.

 

Edited January 4, 2012 by MaugrimTyk

[Nyliana]

I am trying to figure out the following though:

 

When 3 stack saber is ticking, and a Cauterize is ticking, and then zen is used....

 

Which burn tick does zen take to crit and heal, and why?

 

It is so hard to see because the numbers go by to fast, but to me it SEEMS that the zen crit is always the same number, so therefore I have been thinking it is always critting the highest burn, the 3 stacked saber burn.

 

Any thoughts on this? because wouldn't it be awesome if this was the case, then the method mentioned above could include cauterize without a problem and increase damage overall?

 

edit, i'm asuming that I have the 3x saber tick up for the same time, or longer then cauterize with this scenario

 

It's going to Crit on the next tick that is a burn, be it cauterize or overload. If you're using Zen right before your third stack of overload, then applying cauterize you'll have 3 ticks overload (because you applied that first, and it's 1 tick/s) and 3 ticks cauterize (because you applied it second, and it also has 1 tick/s).

 

My method is harder to setup, but I believe outputs more damage overall despite requiring testing with a DPS meter to be certain.

 

 

 

edit2 I supposed I confused the saber ward 'effect cannot occure more then once per 1.5 seconds' with zen, it simply takes every single crit, so the 6 charges are gone within a second, and it just takes the crit in order it comes.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2012 by Nyliana

[MaugrimTyk]

It seem it would come down to this

 

Keeping 3 stacked saber up for long period of time, and not using cauterize (or minimal use, it will depend on focus costs from filler skills and how often zen can be used) so Zen gets maximal damage output.

 

or

 

Keeping 3 stacked saber up using cauterize as a saber charger, Zen will have lower damage output because it uses the lower damage from cauterize aswell.

 

second would give more health back to yourself

 

 

I am really curious if there is a big damage difference

[Nyliana]

It seem it would come down to this

 

Keeping 3 stacked saber up for long period of time, and not using cauterize (or minimal use, it will depend on focus costs from filler skills and how often zen can be used) so Zen gets maximal damage output.

 

or

 

Keeping 3 stacked saber up using cauterize as a saber charger, Zen will have lower damage output because it uses the lower damage from cauterize aswell.

 

second would give more health back to yourself

 

 

I am really curious if there is a big damage difference

 

Could you explain how you get more health from using cauterize with zen?

Should be the same I think, as zen returns a percentage of your health, as well as Merciless Zeal talent. (Do we call them talents? heh).

[MaugrimTyk]

Yeah I am talking about merciless Zeal, but not form using Zen.

 

I mean when you use cauterize everytime it's up, while trying to get the 3 stacked saber for as long as possible, you have alot more burns, because of cauterize, and any burn that crit will give back 2% health