Damage Meters

[BDilly]

Got those monkeys typin, hopin for some Shakespeare!

 

Where words are scarce, they are seldom spent in vain, for they breathe truth that breathe their words in pain

 

 

Sup

[Sehte]

If the boss died then the raid did good. If not try again. Pretty simple. I don't need a meter for that.

 

I'm not even going to respond to that, except to say if you don't agree with DM's how can any of you disagree with adding combat logs? Half the time I die, I have no idea what ability killed me or for how much it hit.

[Sehte]

What are the chances of a dev response?

[mSum]

I would also like to see practice dummies. I found this very helpful when they added them in WoW to work on the best DPS rotation.

[GOYAFIDO]

If the boss died then the raid did good. If not try again. Pretty simple. I don't need a meter for that.

 

So remove health bars too. Who needs em? No one is measuring anything anyway. Just have the tank spam, the dps spam and the heals spam until either the boss or the group is dead..."we don need no steenkeeng health bars! In the old days we closed our eyes and spammed ONE key and we LIKED it!!!":p

[SarahAran]

DPS meters are what turned WoW into another "Spreadsheets Online."

[Kaelano]

Parsing is necessary for anyone interested in playing well. If you're not interested in playing well, don't use it and avoid people who do. Those people will likely also be avoiding you. There is no argument here.

 

For me, I just need someone to point me to where I can get a damage meter. I want to do the best I can for myself and my guild.

[crimsonsglory]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

[Starlinkk]

we need a Damage Meters. stop.

[Mrip]

we need a Damage Meters. stop.

 

When all nightmare content is cleared in a few weeks without meters, you don't need meters.

[VulcanLogic]

When all nightmare content is cleared in a few weeks without meters, you don't need meters.

 

Well, the other side of that coin is that the content could be made harder to suit the availability of a combat log.

[xMZe]

When all nightmare content is cleared in a few weeks without meters, you don't need meters.

 

What is the correlation of clearing this nightmare content and the lack of damage meters? If Bioware plans on increasing the difficulty of their content (which I'm hopefully assuming they will do), then people will want to know what the best optimizations of their class would be when you absolutely need to pull out the best dps/tanking/healing.

 

Having cleared 10/10 16 NM, I'm experimenting with specs (looking at force lightning alacrity assassin and dps darkness) to see how they hold up with the cookie cutter 31/x/x Madness and Deception builds. Need more than just theorycrafting to get those numbers when it comes to practicality.

[Mrip]

What is the correlation of clearing this nightmare content and the lack of damage meters? If Bioware plans on increasing the difficulty of their content (which I'm hopefully assuming they will do), then people will want to know what the best optimizations of their class would be when you absolutely need to pull out the best dps/tanking/healing.

 

Having cleared 10/10 16 NM, I'm experimenting with specs (looking at force lightning alacrity assassin and dps darkness) to see how they hold up with the cookie cutter 31/x/x Madness and Deception builds. Need more than just theorycrafting to get those numbers when it comes to practicality.

 

I think the general idea is to just play the game and have fun instead of playing with math. Just my opinion.

[Zepath]

Then don't use them? I can be an option turned on or off, but it makes analyzing fights, specs, equipment, classes, rotations, really anything, impossible.

 

This is the dumbest, immature, response anyone could possibly make.

 

Its like saying, "I want to use a gun in this duel, use a knife if you don't like guns. But its impossible to know if I am beating you without it!"

 

Really? You are either killing the damned boss and getting the job done or you aren't.

 

Once a damage meter is in, you HAVE to use it to stay competitive, and that is exactly why most don't want one.

 

We just want to play the game .... and it won't stop at damage meters, then it will be the next thing WE HAVE TO HAVE, then it will be the next and the next and the next ..... and then we have fricking WoW all over again where you must have a damage meter, you must have a healing grid, you must have deadly boss mods, you need and you need you need.

 

And then gee ... in order for the Dev's to know have their game be called boring and lame, they start designing their content to make it a challenge to those who have all these tools, making it even more necessary to have the tools.

 

It just never ends.

 

Edited February 17, 2012 by Zepath

[Walterppk]

 

We just want to play the game .... and it won't stop at damage meters, then it will be the next thing WE HAVE TO HAVE, then it will be the next and the next and the next ..... and then we have fricking WoW all over again where you must have a damage meter, you must have a healing grid, you must have deadly boss mods, you need and you need you need.

 

And then gee ... in order for the Dev's to know have their game be called boring and lame, they start designing their content to make it a challenge to those who have all these tools, making it even more necessary to have the tools.

 

It just never ends.

 

 

This argument doesnt hold. The developers are ALREADY designing their content in such a way that DPS matters (there are enrage timers, even though they might not be too strict on all difficulities).

[Drykaas]

Yeah I dont see where it is an absolute must have, I mean you can pretty much figure out what rotations beat the boss faster than others, and the same goes for players. There are people that like to know exactly whats going on when they are fighting. I think you can take it or leave it. When it boils down to it, having a damage meter isnt going to make you the supreme PVE or PVP, it will help ;but I guarantee that you will be beaten by someone without one, and your guild is still going to wipe eventually.

[Drykaas]

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

Really? well lets see, did his health go from full to zero in half a second safe to say he got he got served by one-shot mechanic or did the one shot mechanic trigger and he did he die? Did his HP slowly go down till he died, safe to say someone missed his heals. "Was a healer AFK for a fight" I dunno did he heal you for the fight? What did they ever do before damage meters. Me personally I dont use them and I have been cross healing since UO. Some people just want to fill thier screens with junk, like the more crap addons you have the better the player you are.

 

LOL did the tank die because he didnt get heals.....

Thats usually how they die everytime,

Edited April 4, 2012 by Drykaas

[NotDonnaReed]

I personally have died on Bonethrasher about 25 times, and I feel like my guild is never going to down him without a damage meter.

 

1. When people die, I can't always determine what killed them, which makes it hard to tell them what to do differently next time.

 

2. When we cc the adds, somebody keeps waking them up. I've got people whispering me that they saw so and so do such and such, but with all those spells flying around, who really knows? I've asked everyone to avoid using AoE on that boss, but I'm not confident that everyone knows what that means.

 

3. When we hit the enrage timer, I'd really like to see who was doing the lowest dps so I can give that person a pep talk about staying on the boss and dpsing while they're running. Or perhaps they're specced incorrectly or using a bad rotation. The fact is, as long as a person is firing something, you can't tell if they're doing fantastic dps or the swtor equivalent of auto-attack.

 

This is not a hard-core MMO. We have lots of people who've never raided before, and it shows. I have to explain things like CC, LoS, AoE, and yet there are enrage timers. Give me a break. Ironically the people arguing against combat logs and damage meters are the ones who will suffer for the lack of them. In the absence of actual data, I can only assume that the non-raiders are the ones screwing up and holding us back, and I'm therefore less likely to raid with them.

[Codek]

I personally have died on Bonethrasher about 25 times, and I feel like my guild is never going to down him without a damage meter.

 

1. When people die, I can't always determine what killed them, which makes it hard to tell them what to do differently next time.

 

2. When we cc the adds, somebody keeps waking them up. I've got people whispering me that they saw so and so do such and such, but with all those spells flying around, who really knows? I've asked everyone to avoid using AoE on that boss, but I'm not confident that everyone knows what that means.

 

3. When we hit the enrage timer, I'd really like to see who was doing the lowest dps so I can give that person a pep talk about staying on the boss and dpsing while they're running. Or perhaps they're specced incorrectly or using a bad rotation. The fact is, as long as a person is firing something, you can't tell if they're doing fantastic dps or the swtor equivalent of auto-attack.

 

This is not a hard-core MMO. We have lots of people who've never raided before, and it shows. I have to explain things like CC, LoS, AoE, and yet there are enrage timers. Give me a break. Ironically the people arguing against combat logs and damage meters are the ones who will suffer for the lack of them. In the absence of actual data, I can only assume that the non-raiders are the ones screwing up and holding us back, and I'm therefore less likely to raid with them.

 

All of this can be worked out with the use of HM FP's. any pitfalls that arise here with the few people you run with are guaranteeing to carry over to the big OP's.

[iSenseSomething]

I have to laugh at players who believe damage meters are bad for the game. Meters are a way to measure player performance, which without them would leave raid leaders with very little information on who's not performing up to par with the rest of the group. It is a totally FAIR method for a leader to find who the weak links are, and either help them gear up, help them with their rotations, or replace them if they simply cannot meet expectations.

 

The people that don't want meters are the weak links, and simply don't want to be blamed for their failure to perform. These players would rather hide behind this lack of information, as opposed to accepting any criticisms and help they could receive otherwise. If anything, these "weak link" players are so selfish that they would impede their raid group's progress just so they could participate. And I'm not saying certain players don't have a right to participate in end-game raiding, but they should either work on improving their performance, or find a guild/clan of similar skill level so they aren't hindering a group's progress.

 

Raiding, while fun and enjoyable, isn't necessarily a casual event. Guild leaders who want to be hardcore and progress quickly are not going to appreciate weak link guild mates that can't meet expectations. Without meters, there's no way to assess your team.

 

If BW wants to do this correctly, they would make meters available to raid leaders only. By having the meters only displayed to the raid leader, that single person can then determine how to handle players who aren't performing. There doesn't need to be any public blasting unless the raid leader wishes it (and do you really want to raid with someone like this?).

 

Meters would be for raids only.

Edited April 4, 2012 by iSenseSomething

[Codek]

I have to laugh at players who believe damage meters are bad for the game. Meters are a way to measure player performance, which without them would leave raid leaders with very little information on who's not performing up to par with the rest of the group. It is a totally FAIR method for a leader to find who the weak links are, and either help them gear up, help them with their rotations, or replace them if they simply cannot meet expectations.

 

The people that don't want meters are the weak links, and simply don't want to be blamed for their failure to perform. These players would rather hide behind this lack of information, as opposed to accepting any criticisms and help they could receive otherwise. If anything, these "weak link" players are so selfish that they would impede their raid group's progress just so they could participate. And I'm not saying certain players don't have a right to participate in end-game raiding, but they should either work on improving their performance, or find a guild/clan of similar skill level so they aren't hindering a group's progress.

 

Raiding, while fun and enjoyable, isn't necessarily a casual event. Guild leaders who want to be hardcore and progress quickly are not going to appreciate weak link guild mates that can't meet expectations. Without meters, there's no way to assess your team.

 

...1 year from now:

 

I have to laugh at players who believe Target Heal Frames are bad for the game. Target Frames are a way to ensure healer performance, which without them would leave raid's with very little health and wasted over heals continuously through the fights. It is a totally FAIR method for a healer to know who the the other healers target, and either heal another target, Conserve resources, or DPS to meet enrage timers.

 

or maybe....

 

I have to laugh at players who believe Macros are bad for the game. Macros are a way to ensure DPS performance, which without them would encourage the chance of hitting the enrage time on bosses. It is a totally FAIR method for a DPS to maximize his rotation, and either have the best rotation, Conserve resources, or Roll their face on the keyboard to meet expectations.

 

Even...

 

I have to laugh at players who believe free loot is bad for the game. Free loot is a way to ensure Raids can clear content, which without them would encourage wipes and high repair bills. It is a totally FAIR method for a raid to have the best gear possible before an encounter, and either have the best chance at winning....

 

 

I know I'm being an *** right now but seriously, any good raid leader has the capability to come up with a method to test their raiders and to discover the issues that plague them. Damage meters just makes it easer and that's it... EASIER! Let's just cut to the chase and make everything easier so the game can die quickly.....

[Rookss]

...1 year from now:

 

I have to laugh at players who believe Target Heal Frames are bad for the game. Target Frames are a way to ensure healer performance, which without them would leave raid's with very little health and wasted over heals continuously through the fights. It is a totally FAIR method for a healer to know who the the other healers target, and either heal another target, Conserve resources, or DPS to meet enrage timers.

[/Quote]

It is, for HM or Nightmare content. Want to run finely tuned difficult challenging content? Then the other 7 (or 15) people depending on you need to make sure you are carrying your weight. If you want loot by just having fun and goofing off with your tri-tree spec and sub-optimal rotation, you can do so in Story mode. Nobody will stop you, and I doubt anyone will ask you for meters, because the content is made to be beaten in that manner.

 

or maybe....

 

I have to laugh at players who believe Macros are bad for the game. Macros are a way to ensure DPS performance, which without them would encourage the chance of hitting the enrage time on bosses. It is a totally FAIR method for a DPS to maximize his rotation, and either have the best rotation, Conserve resources, or Roll their face on the keyboard to meet expectations.

[/Quote]

Could care less about macros. If I needed them, I could use a 3rd party program or even some existing hardware (razor mice) which allow me to have them. Having them excluded from the game doesn't mean they don't exist, and if you think it does then you have a lack of understanding when it comes to PCs. Either way - this isn't important to me. Macro's is a quality of life improvement, it doesn't make or break your rotation.

 

Even...

 

I have to laugh at players who believe free loot is bad for the game. Free loot is a way to ensure Raids can clear content, which without them would encourage wipes and high repair bills. It is a totally FAIR method for a raid to have the best gear possible before an encounter, and either have the best chance at winning....

Im not sure what you mean by free loot. Story mode should gear people up enough to do HardModes, but not be so overpowering that they can walk into Nightmare and sleep through the raid and only hit 2 buttons to beat all the bosses. Obviously story mode allows you to enjoy the story, without having the encounters tuned so difficult that you NEED meters and perfect rotations to beat them.

 

I know I'm being an *** right now but seriously, any good raid leader has the capability to come up with a method to test their raiders and to discover the issues that plague them. Damage meters just makes it easer and that's it... EASIER! Let's just cut to the chase and make everything easier so the game can die quickly.....

 

Im guessing that last part is sarcasm. What you are suggesting is a raid leader, while Main Tanking, or DPSing, or Healing, should also be watching every single member of their raid while also paying attention to boss mechanics, to figure out who is suboptimally spec'd and not following their rotation? You must be joking. DPS and Healing meters give end-game progression raiding groups the ability to evaluate THEMSELVES along with their raiders-in-crime.

 

I WILL concede the fact that people spamming meters in any chat is super annoying. But saying 'no meters' isn't the only option. I'd love to see a Ops Leader Panel which the ops leader can start/stop/reset and only share in the ops channel. Problem solved.

[Darnu]

I personally have died on Bonethrasher about 25 times, and I feel like my guild is never going to down him without a damage meter.

 

This is why I think it'll be interesting to see what happens if these guilds killing bosses who oppose combat logs and meters start falling apart, if they'll start requesting ingame combat logs and meters etc. Of course not all will, and there will be some guilds that stay together for as long as the game lasts, though. But I don't think they all will. Or also, what happens if the content starts getting harder? How long can they hold this stance "friends and fun above performance - but as long as we're getting the results and hopefully not too many other people are"?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Darnu

[Erasimus]

What the "anti-damage-meter" crowd doesn't seem to get is that for many of us not having an objective measure of performance makes playing an MMO much less enjoyable, myself included.

 

I like being able to test/measure different rotations and specs, it is a part of the game for many of us and keeps us engaged and playing. If the devs hadn't said damage meters/combat logs are coming I'd probably cancel my sub after experiencing all of the class quests.

 

Damage meters will not cause problems with players "looking down" on subpar performers. The people that do that don't need damage meters, they'll make up reason if they need to.

 

If you don't want to use damage meters, then don't. The way the game seems to be designed you'd still be able to see all of the content and do regular OPs. But hopefully they will make at least some OPs difficult enough so that you'll need to fine tune your DPS/Healing/Interrupts to be successful.

 

Theory crafting (spreadsheets if you will) and being able to objectively verify your theories is something many people enjoy. There is no reason that both groups can't have what they want.

 

Some are claiming "Thats why WoW failed/sucks/etc.. because of damage meters, among other reasons." Well if WoW "failed" there probably isn't a company out there that wouldn't want to "fail" exactly like WoW. I still play WoW and have been both a "Hard Core" raider and now a very casual player. Doing either I still like having a combat log so I can objectively measure changes I make to my character.

 

I've been playing computer games since the original Pong was released, and yes I'm that old. I've never understood why people resist optional additions to games just because they don't like them.

 

(P.S. If you have combat logs you have damage meters whether they are in game or not. I know I'll probably write my own parser and have it up on my second monitor while I play.)

Edited April 4, 2012 by Erasimus

[cbowsin]

If BW wants to do this correctly, they would make meters available to raid leaders only. By having the meters only displayed to the raid leader, that single person can then determine how to handle players who aren't performing.

 

So kind of like a performance review. They can call the player into a meeting room with an additional manager, um guild officer, and detail the performance of the player and show them where they need to improve. In which case if they do not improve can result in termination err I mean GKicked. Players better start submitting their TPS reports, oops, I mean damage logs.

 

I really don't care if they have combat logs or not, the only thing that irks me is the people who spend their day as a fry cook then come home and play a game so they can tell other adults how imperfect they are. I already got one job thanks, don't need another one, especially a non-paying one.

 

2. When we cc the adds, somebody keeps waking them up. I've got people whispering me that they saw so and so do such and such, but with all those spells flying around, who really knows? I've asked everyone to avoid using AoE on that boss, but I'm not confident that everyone knows what that means.

 

We CC the cats too and one time from my sloppy tab targeting I accidentally targeted a CC'd cat and placed a DoT. When the DoT broke the CC, do you know who it attacked? Me. If people are not attacking the cats and the CC last it's full duration it is going to attack the CCer, however if people are attacking it, it is going agro the person who attacked it. If someone breaks the CC, then just look to see who they attack.