Damage Meters

[fiellixiang]

There's a simple solution. They don't need a real time meter like in WoW. Just use the PVP system of a battle report at the end of boss fights in operations. It would show you damage done and taken, plus healing done and taken. It's not a live meter that people stare at the entire time while they stand in aoe, and it would show you if someone isn't pulling their weight.

 

The best part is the system is in place already, it would just need to be utilized in operations as well as PVP.

 

I think this is a pretty good idea actually.

[Cylthia]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you think features that allow other players to evaluate your performance will make the game less fun for you, you're either a poor player who doesn't wish to improve or you're playing with the wrong people. Yes, MMOs are full of morons who use the meters to stroke their egos rather than to help the group succeed, but they'd be there with or without dps meters; the solution is to stop playing with those people. Do you really want to keep a useful feature from players who use it well so that you can run flashpoints with jerkasses?

[Revanmug]

Look, if you guys are so lazy and inattentive that you need an add-on to tell you what I can already see with my two eyes plain as day then sure put a DPS/Heal meter into the game. I'm all for making the game easier for those with disabilities such as blindness.

 

I haven't come across a situation where I needed a DPS meter or a battle log to tell me what was wrong. It's called situational awareness. Is the DPS even near the boss? Do you see them shooting? Are they standing in a fire? These are things you can see happening. I can definately tell when the tank isn't doing their job, or the healer isn't doing theirs, or the DPS isn't doing theirs. It's as plain as day when the bosses HP doesn't move, or the tank loses aggro, or if the healer is slacking. I can even tell if the boss is enraged by their buff bar.

 

Will meters make the game easier? Yeah, probably.

 

Are they needed? Not in the slightest.

 

Know how I can tell that my DPS rotation is working well? Things die. Quickly. Worst case scenario for you min/maxers is that you roll a class and get out a stop watch. Maybe even make some friends and work things out with the duel system.The numbers pop on your screen. Do the math. The real thing you're complaining about is you have to do the math yourself, and you can't see everyone elses math.

 

Go play Excel somewhere else. ^_^

 

God forbid you ever need to talk to anyone in your group. After all, those other fail loser dead weights you play with would never answer a question straight. Only you, the pro-master DPS/Heal Monitor Savior can draw conclusions and answer questions. After all, everyone else in the game is a n00b liar.

 

(Yes, this post is half-troll. It's also 100% true.)

 

Hey dude, Im in your raid, spaming strikes constantly with a few slash here and there. I'M DOING THINGS RIGHT! I GET DEM SPOT IN DEM RAID RIGHT!

 

You'll never know you are carrying me but hey! I'm doing things and I complete your list here... "Is the DPS even near the boss? Do you see them shooting? Are they standing in a fire?"

 

Don't tell me how to play also! I like the animation of slash and strike better than anything else! When we hit enrage on nightmare, it is just because you are too focus of watching me and trying to see if I'm doing a correct rotation! Your fault!

 

(Yes, this post is 100% sarcastic. It's also 100% true.)

 

I suggest you walk away shamefuly back to your troll raid and never come back.

[SpaceJ]

All of these arguments aside, it's been well established that a 'DPS Meter' or even a 'combat log' isn't the end-all-be-all for determining if someone is making a meaningful contribution. You can be the best player in the universe and still be CC locked or otherwise incapacitated for the majority of a fight. Additionally, a parse doesn't show you if your top DPS is wiping the raid by pulling AoE aggro back to the healers. You only find that one out by paying attention

 

In my ten year expierence across multiple MMO's combat parsers have led to more troble than value in my opinion. During my tenure in Age of Conan, for example, many raids discouraged posting a parse log since it caused tons of wipes when people who were behind in the parse decided to 'make up' for lost time and went balls-out DPS to 'catch up' and not be considered useless. They then pull the boss, and the raid wipes. While you might not post your parse, and you might call that a solution, the fact of the matter is that keeping a tab on who's doing what with a 3rd-party program has it's own inherent problems. A better solution, in my view, is to keep the parse out of it and pay attention to what everyone else is doing. If you can't keep a tab on the tiny amount of players in a Star Wars raid compared to the monster raids in other games, you probably have no business leading raids in the first place.

 

I know you don't want to pay attention, but no amount of parsing will ensure everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing anyway. If they want to add a combat log I wouldn't hands-down oppose it, but if it's on their radar at all I would hope it's far down the list from the other things that need doing. (Among other things, a UI that's actually customizable.)

 

There have only been two serious stated reasons given for a parse:

 

A) To maximize your DPS chain.

 

B) To make sure people aren't slacking in-raid.

 

and the real reason...

 

C) Need to make sure I have the biggest E-Peen around.

 

To these points, a smart player doesn't need a program to maximize their DPS chain and if you're that worried about slackers don't play with PuG groups. I know the real reason MOST of you want the parse is for reason C. To those who honestly want it for reasons A and B, I'm sure you'll already have it figured out by the time they get around to it so why waste your time?

 

 

Hey dude, Im in your raid, spaming strikes constantly with a few slash here and there. I'M DOING THINGS RIGHT! I GET DEM SPOT IN DEM RAID RIGHT!

 

You'll never know you are carrying me but hey! I'm doing things and I complete your list here... "Is the DPS even near the boss? Do you see them shooting? Are they standing in a fire?"

 

Don't tell me how to play also! I like the animation of slash and strike better than anything else! When we hit enrage on nightmare, it is just because you are too focus of watching me and trying to see if I'm doing a correct rotation! Your fault!

 

(Yes, this post is 100% sarcastic. It's also 100% true.)

 

I suggest you walk away shamefuly back to your troll raid and never come back.

 

You've totally changed my opinion. Well played sir. A parse would solve that problem instantly! Good thing you were spending all that time messing with your parse program to make sure everyone else was doing a good job. Never mind the fact that you're at the bottom of every list since you're alt-tabbing every two seconds to update your parse. Man, I'm so glad you were spending all that time on your parser or that guy right above you in the parse would have gotten away with doing nothing the whole time! CRISIS AVERTED!!!!!!

 

/sarcasm ^_^

Edited January 16, 2012 by SpaceJ

[Manv]

It's hand-holding because it requires you to do nothing other than punch a defenseless dummy for hours on end trying to squeeze out an extra 1%. It's hand-holding because you can easily do the math, AS IS, to determine the optimal configuration for a given character class. The character sheet gives you the raw numbers, and your powers have their base values already listed. Combine these with the cool-down that's listed then solve for the average. The tree even lists the increase or change of values for any ability you're modding. This is simply laziness or an inability to solve complex math equasions. I guess you're just a 'hardcore' raider and not a 'hardcore' math person.

 

(As a side-note, I am not a hardcore math person either. However, these numbers are all easily found on the character sheet and ability window. I know I'm lazy, but what's your excuse if you really want the answers to these questions. Oh, right, you're waiting for your hand to be held.)

 

Assuming I do that, what next? As you probably noticed (or not considering how short sighted you are), operations are a group effort. Even if I do all the math, it won't matter if the other 7 people don't. And even if you do all your theorycrafting, it's not worth anything if you can't execute it properly during a fight. Which is what training dummies are for: so you can PRACTICE what you learned. Practicing is hand holding now? Tell that to people playing competitive sports. Messi you noob, stop training, it's hand holding!

 

The point is, even if you do your math, it won't necessarily mean that you'll play properly - all you get is theory which you might not be able to execute for one reason or another. And when it comes to execution, you want to be able to see which people in your group are capable of doing it. Not to ridicule them. To replace them with someone better who actually contributes to the kill.

 

And there is NO WAY to see if someone is doing proper dps or not without meters. And you can't prove otherwise, because you DON'T know if a particular player is spamming two buttons or actually trying just by looking at him. You just can't.

 

@up

Or he could check the parse after a fight so it doesn't affect him at all. No, wait, that would be too difficult. And probably hand holding.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Manv

[Revanmug]

You've totally changed my opinion. Well played sir. A parse would solve that problem instantly! Good thing you were spending all that time messing with your parse program to make sure everyone else was doing a good job. Never mind the fact that you're at the bottom of every list since you're alt-tabbing every two seconds to update your parse. Man, I'm so glad you were spending all that time on your parser or that guy right above you in the parse would have gotten away with doing nothing the whole time! CRISIS AVERTED!!!!!!

 

/sarcasm ^_^

 

most log have real time update btw. When you have no clue how tools work, It is normal to find them useless. Also, who need to alt tab? Get another screen. That make you able to work more effectively and that's not just for game! Amazing right! DO IT NOAW!

 

Ignorance is a bliss right? Problably why most people don't want those tools.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Revanmug

[SpaceJ]

Assuming I do that, what next? As you probably noticed (or not considering how short sighted you are), operations are a group effort. Even if I do all the math, it won't matter if the other 7 people don't. And even if you do all your theorycrafting, it's not worth anything if you can't execute it properly during a fight. Which is what training dummies are for: so you can PRACTICE what you learned.

 

I'd say that's what 4 man heroics are for, but hey if you want a bad guy that doesn't fight back to practice on that's your choice.

 

Practicing is hand holding now? Tell that to people playing competitive sports. Messi you noob, stop training, it's hand holding!

 

So we talking about raid parsing or training? Last I checked I can practice without a parse program all day long. I can read the damage numbers and draw conclusions on what my rotation should be through playing the game...is that something you can't do? Sounds like you need your hand held...

 

The point is, even if you do your math, it won't necessarily mean that you'll play properly - all you get is theory which you might not be able to execute for one reason or another.

 

Such as being crowd controlled or killed at the start of the fight? Is that due to me going all-out DPS too early, or is it the tanks fault for failing in his role? Maybe the healers fault for not getting his heal off in time? Does your parse answer those questions, or do you know that from seeing the event in question? Then again, maybe I should just thank you for making my argument for me. (You know, that a parse doesn't actually do anything for you...)

 

And when it comes to execution, you want to be able to see which people in your group are capable of doing it. Not to ridicule them. To replace them with someone better who actually contributes to the kill.

 

Ah, gotcha. Kick a guy before the boss since they didn't pull their weight and replace them with another unknown variable. Then kick that unknown variable for another one. Rinse, wash, repeat. Yep, a parse sure solved that problem.

 

And there is NO WAY to see if someone is doing proper dps or not without meters. And you can't prove otherwise, because you DON'T know if a particular player is spamming two buttons or actually trying just by looking at him. You just can't.

 

Practice isn't hand holding, but parsers aren't necessarily practice either. Sure, they can be a useful tool if you're obsessed about an extra 1-2% extra damage/healing. Also, you're right, without a parse I suppose you can't prove it. You can still kick them though. You act like you need proof for that, but last I checked it's just a button you push to remove them from your group.

Edited January 16, 2012 by SpaceJ

[SpaceJ]

most log have real time update btw. When you have no clue how tools work, It is normal to find them useless. Also, who need to alt tab? Get another screen. That make you able to work more effectively and that's not just for game! Amazing right! DO IT NOAW!

 

Ignorance is a bliss right? Problably why most people don't want those tools.

 

With the parse programs I've used you still need to alt-tab to check the actual numbers, which I presume you'll be doing constantly. If it does have an overlay, I guess I'm wrong. Some of them have one, but in my expierence they don't work properly 9 out of 10 times. Especially after an update.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, so sorry. I missed the part where you had a second screen up for your parsing/web browsing. I guess you don't need to alt-tab. I bow before your superior E-Peen O' Video Game Master, you obviously want the combat log to show others your true superiority so you can bring them to the Truth, the Way, and the Light. Argument retracted.

Edited January 16, 2012 by SpaceJ

[GengisKahn]

It's hand-holding because it requires you to do nothing other than punch a defenseless dummy for hours on end trying to squeeze out an extra 1%. It's hand-holding because you can easily do the math, AS IS, to determine the optimal configuration for a given character class. The character sheet gives you the raw numbers, and your powers have their base values already listed. Combine these with the cool-down that's listed then solve for the average. The tree even lists the increase or change of values for any ability you're modding. This is simply laziness or an inability to solve complex math equasions. I guess you're just a 'hardcore' raider and not a 'hardcore' math person.

 

(As a side-note, I am not a hardcore math person either. However, these numbers are all easily found on the character sheet and ability window. I know I'm lazy, but what's your excuse if you really want the answers to these questions. Oh, right, you're waiting for your hand to be held.)

 

 

You cant easily do the math, because you dont have the real time frame.

 

Also, if you think that the hard part of maximizing your toon is the math then you are dead wrong. Doing the math is the simpler part of it.

 

Also, theory is different than practice, thats why spreadsheets are never even close to the numbers that logs and meters end up giving, have you ever played an online game?

 

No, now you cant do it, not even using fraps to capture the fight and then taking the numbers that show and the timefrate, even then you wont have an accurate way to measure that.

 

We need the timframe in which the SERVER applies our damage and how much damage applies, we need the timeframe the SERVER deals damage to our toon, and how much, from which boss skill.

 

We need things we dont have, because with what we have, we can only do poor estimations.

 

You clearly dont have a clue about what you are talking.

 

Also, math is not complex, but you dont even know what complex means, yet you keep talking about what you dont know.

 

Its not hand holding because you still have to imagine the combinations of talents that will end in the increase/decrease of dps, which is the complex part.

Edited January 16, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Rattius]

With the parse programs I've used you still need to alt-tab to check the actual numbers, which I presume you'll be doing constantly. If it does have an overlay, I guess I'm wrong. Some of them have one, but in my expierence they don't work properly 9 out of 10 times. Especially after an update.

 

Then you've been using fail parsers.

 

Combat logs ARE COMING. With them will come parsers. Period. Like them or not, we're getting parsers.

 

/thread

 

/topic for the rest of forever... This horse has been dead for weeks now people.

[Manv]

What kind of parse programs are you using, something from around 2005? Because current parse programs update themselves in real time. Obviously if you had to do it manually they'd kinda lose their purpose...

 

Heroic 4 are faceroll and doable with pretty much anyone. If you mean hard mode flashpoints, am I supposed to bring every single guild member to a run just to see how he performs? Or should I keep wiping on a boss to see how much % will someone do before a boss enrages?

 

Comment about training had nothing to do with parses, see what I quoted. Obviously you don't need parses for practice but they help to see if you're doing it properly or not.

 

By "executing" I mean doing a proper rotation. Not for 1-2% more dps, that would be silly. But for doing 2k dps instead of 1k, yes. That's the usual difference between good and bad players - HIGH. Who cares about a measly 1% really? Do you seriously think this is all about doing slightly more dps? It isn't.

 

And yes, I'd rather place my bets with a so called "unknown variable" than someone who I KNOW is bad. Maybe I get lucky and find someone decent? You never know.

[Auronamij]

After reading hundreds of pages of these types of threads, it seems to me and has been pointed out by others, that the problem isn't the addons, it's the players. There is nothing inherently wrong with damage meters, threat meters, customized operations frames, or customized bar modifications. The problem comes from so many sides that frankly it's hard to grasp.

 

There are people who know how to use the tools correctly, and enjoy their use without offending others. There are people who know how to use the tools correctly, and enjoy their use while berating others. There are people who don't know how to use the tools correctly and hate their existence and those who use them. And there are people who don't know how to use the tools correctly and still berate others. Obviously there's no way to control a bunch of people on the internet, so people immediately try to remove any tool they could use that has any negative impact on their experience.

 

Is prohibiting an addition to the game which makes high end play endurable really any better than someone constantly linking you dps meters? Proponents of a non-customized ui are dictating our play style because they don't want to be offended, why shouldn't we both be allowed what we want? I have no desire to play with random people at level 50, the meters or combat log would be for use with my guild so we can improve our play and fully enjoy our experience. To appease the players who don't want to utilize the meter addons, prohibit any non-game source from sending text to chat channels.

 

The arguments I've seen against meters are quite frequently nonsensical. I've participated in semi-high end playing since 2005, and honestly the games would have gotten quite brutal if there was no way to track our own progression aside from boss deaths.

 

~Claiming that it neuters game difficulty is pure drivel. Being able to directly see your damage does nothing to play your character for you. You are still responsible for every action that leads to said damage, it just removes any guessing aspect. Perhaps it's my own difference in opinion, but guessing is not a function I care to have playing a role in my gaming.

 

~Some people argue that it ignores whether a player is contributing secondary healing to the group, or whether they are helping with crowd control etc. If you're in a group that doesn't understand the benefits you're providing by doing that, then you've encountered a group of people you probably don't want to play with anyway. Without a Dungeon Finder, there's frankly no reason to play with people you don't like, so join a group that understands your contributions, instead of blaming it on an addon.

 

~As far as the ui goes, I don't see how having to watch 3 separate sides of my screen constantly is a real challenge. Moving all 4 bars into one concise location frees up my screen so I can actually see the game world without a bunch of clutter. I don't see how grouping up players in a smaller unit frame would be a detriment either. There is very little gain to having a massive bar for 8 groups that fires off the side of your screen if you place it anywhere your eyes can appropriately react to it. Not having mouse-over macros destroys a healer's ability to watch a boss, because frankly the focus frame is near useless for anything other than watching health. These types of things don't detract from the skill in the game, they add to it by allowing you to actually participate in more aspects of a fight.

 

These are obviously just my opinions, and I highly doubt many minds will be changed, but it does grow quite tiresome for those of us who prefer to play with an entire set of tools to be belittled by another aspect of a community we're a large part of.

[Happylol]

^^ thanks for this.

 

It is so frustrating to read 96 pages of posts from people that think meters are not needed.

 

I can NOT imagine what WoW would have been like without a meter. Not only did it showcase who was slacking, but it also showcased who was performing really well.

 

I don't think I have seen one logical reason as to why meters should not be implemented aside from people abusing them, and the fact that we have to suffer because of these idiotic people is beyond me.

[GengisKahn]

All of these arguments aside, it's been well established that a 'DPS Meter' or even a 'combat log' isn't the end-all-be-all for determining if someone is making a meaningful contribution. You can be the best player in the universe and still be CC locked or otherwise incapacitated for the majority of a fight. Additionally, a parse doesn't show you if your top DPS is wiping the raid by pulling AoE aggro back to the healers. You only find that one out by paying attention

 

In my ten year expierence across multiple MMO's combat parsers have led to more troble than value in my opinion. During my tenure in Age of Conan, for example, many raids discouraged posting a parse log since it caused tons of wipes when people who were behind in the parse decided to 'make up' for lost time and went balls-out DPS to 'catch up' and not be considered useless. They then pull the boss, and the raid wipes. While you might not post your parse, and you might call that a solution, the fact of the matter is that keeping a tab on who's doing what with a 3rd-party program has it's own inherent problems. A better solution, in my view, is to keep the parse out of it and pay attention to what everyone else is doing. If you can't keep a tab on the tiny amount of players in a Star Wars raid compared to the monster raids in other games, you probably have no business leading raids in the first place.

 

I know you don't want to pay attention, but no amount of parsing will ensure everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing anyway. If they want to add a combat log I wouldn't hands-down oppose it, but if it's on their radar at all I would hope it's far down the list from the other things that need doing. (Among other things, a UI that's actually customizable.)

 

There have only been two serious stated reasons given for a parse:

 

A) To maximize your DPS chain.

 

B) To make sure people aren't slacking in-raid.

 

and the real reason...

 

C) Need to make sure I have the biggest E-Peen around.

 

To these points, a smart player doesn't need a program to maximize their DPS chain and if you're that worried about slackers don't play with PuG groups. I know the real reason MOST of you want the parse is for reason C. To those who honestly want it for reasons A and B, I'm sure you'll already have it figured out by the time they get around to it so why waste your time?

 

 

 

 

You've totally changed my opinion. Well played sir. A parse would solve that problem instantly! Good thing you were spending all that time messing with your parse program to make sure everyone else was doing a good job. Never mind the fact that you're at the bottom of every list since you're alt-tabbing every two seconds to update your parse. Man, I'm so glad you were spending all that time on your parser or that guy right above you in the parse would have gotten away with doing nothing the whole time! CRISIS AVERTED!!!!!!

 

/sarcasm ^_^

 

So much ignorance about how things work in this post...

 

Only idiots use meters to show epeen, and idiots are idiots with or without a tool. You wont stop idiots from playing by not giving them a tool.

 

You will prevent serious players that like to maximize their toon from playing by not giving them the tools to play like they want.

 

You can CHOOSE to use meters or not, and if you have such a low personality that other people posting meters affects you, i feel pity for you.

 

Anyway, you clearly don't know what you are talking about and are just trolling, like you said from your first posts.

 

Meters are necesary or the game will lose a significant amount of good players and wont be considered a serious MMO.

[Stoids]

Need meter so I can kick the bad players from my guild and send out a server-wide PSA confirming their inability to be awesome DPS.

[Rattius]

^^ thanks for this.

 

It is so frustrating to read 96 pages of posts from people that think meters are not needed.

 

 

They aren't 'needed.'

 

What do you 'need?' Food, water, clothing, and shelter.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to having a parser on my second monitor, but we should be precise with our language and characterizations; that's how things get... outta-whack in threadsd like these.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Rattius

[Happylol]

oh my.

[Revanmug]

EDIT:

 

Oh, so sorry. I missed the part where you had a second screen up for your parsing/web browsing. I guess you don't need to alt-tab. I bow before your superior E-Peen O' Video Game Master, you obviously want the combat log to show others your true superiority so you can bring them to the Truth, the Way, and the Light. Argument retracted.

 

Yeah, I kind of realise you had a quite bad reading comprehension.

let me copy paste a part of my previous post...

 

"... to work more effectively and that's not just for game!"

 

It's not because I learned how to use a more effective workstation that I am suddendly "master of video game with inflate epeen". Of course, coming from someone that is happy to bash his head on a wall rather than study it and understand it more quickly... I am not surprise.

 

Walking with blinders is not something I like, at work or in games. There is absolutly no reason why I should be force to. Neither will I force you to remove them.

[Rattius]

Oh, so sorry. I missed the part where you had a second screen up for your parsing/web browsing. I guess you don't need to alt-tab.

 

A second screen is not required to view results without tab-switching. Some have an output display that will always stay on top.

[SpaceJ]

You cant easily do the math, because you dont have the real time frame.

 

Hence the stop-watch I mentioned. You are correct though.

 

Also, if you think that the hard part of maximizing your toon is the math then you are dead wrong. Doing the math is the simpler part of it.

 

Also, theory is different than practice, thats why spreadsheets are never even close to the numbers that logs and meters end up giving, have you ever played an online game?

 

Making my point for me again, that a parse isn't needed. And yes, I have.

 

No, now you cant do it, not even using fraps to capture the fight and then taking the numbers that show and the timefrate, even then you wont have an accurate way to measure that.

 

We need the timframe in which the SERVER applies our damage and how much damage applies, we need the timeframe the SERVER deals damage to our toon, and how much, from which boss skill.

 

Only if it's imperitive that your calculations are quite literally exact. Reminder: This is a game. Within a few percentage points should be good enough for what you want.

 

We need things we dont have, because with what we have, we can only do poor estimations.

You clearly dont have a clue about what you are talking.

 

By 'poor estimations' I assume you simply mean you don't have it down to the nth degree? Because with the information available you can do it. It's a pain in the butt, so I guess I shouldn't begrudge you the tools that will ensure you waste your life doing MMO calculations to the nearest degree. As to 'We need things we don't have', do you really believe this is needed? That a parse is a requirement? I guess some people like math more than video games...

 

Also, math is not complex, but you dont even know what complex means, yet you keep talking about what you dont know.

 

Nope, math isn't complex. I'm the first to admit I'm not the best at it. In fact, in college it wasn't my best subject. However, I do know enough about averages to realize you add together all the damage numbers in a given time-frame then divide by the time-frame involved to reach an average damage per second. That's pretty easy right? Will it be perfect? No. Will it be good enough to draw a meaningful conclusion? Undoubtedly since you're looking for statistically meaningful data. I'm not arguing that this is something you should do, by the way. It's something you could do if you honestly care enough to number crunch.

 

I personally like the fact that the real numbers are hidden, because as soon as real numbers are published and parsed the game turns into a FOTM with regular 'balance' nerfs from community outcry. It will get there eventually anyway, but the logs will get us there faster.

[SpaceJ]

Then you've been using fail parsers.

 

Combat logs ARE COMING. With them will come parsers. Period. Like them or not, we're getting parsers.

 

/thread

 

/topic for the rest of forever... This horse has been dead for weeks now people.

 

That's very possible on the issue of fail parsers. They never seem to work after updates, and are generally a pain in the behind to use consistantly. If the combat log is coming though, I suppose it's moot. The first major nerf-bats will be on it's heels though, mark my words.

[Deviss]

Damage meter is A MUST. End of discussion, your argument is invalid.

 

If there is End Game PvE content with enrage timers, there is no way top guilds can compete on truly high level without such a basic tool as DPS meter. I also do not understand what is a big deal with adding it, we have it on Warzones so it should not be really that complicated. :<

 

Just add it BioWare! ASAP!

[DarthTorne]

They aren't 'needed.'

 

What do you 'need?' Food, water, clothing, and shelter.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to having a parser on my second monitor, but we should be precise with our language and characterizations; that's how things get... outta-whack in threadsd like these.

 

Always hate to see people argue semantics when it comes to video games. No, you don't "need" a damage meter to play the game. You also don't need *good* food, water, clothing and shelter to survive. You can survive alone on an island with only coconuts/fish, rain water, few strips of clothing, and a cave.

 

See the difference here? We're* stuck on an island. Without some type of combat log and ability to examine that log in detail, we're* surviving on coconuts and rain water. That may be fine for you, but not for us.

 

The "need" we* speak of is to enjoy our play. We* don't need anything outside of the stock UI to merely push buttons and listen to voice acting. If you enjoy that, great. We* however need more then that to enjoy the game.

 

If you actually enjoy TOR, I'd advise against you campaigning to push out any type of players. MMO's run on subs, and the more that are available the more likely it is to succeed. A lot of people throw hate at WoW, but there's a reason it is still going strong**. It caters to as many as possible. I don't want to see TOR go the way of Rifts, DDO, COH, etc etc.

 

* - min/maxers

** - They lost 2 million subs. Out of 12 million. That's less then 20% of their playerbase. Most MMO's lose a higher percentage (sometimes double or triple that) in their first year. Heck, some don't even get to 2 million players.

[Happylol]

Always hate to see people argue semantics when it comes to video games. No, you don't "need" a damage meter to play the game. You also don't need *good* food, water, clothing and shelter to survive. You can survive alone on an island with only coconuts/fish, rain water, few strips of clothing, and a cave.

 

See the difference here? We're* stuck on an island. Without some type of combat log and ability to examine that log in detail, we're* surviving on coconuts and rain water. That may be fine for you, but not for us.

 

The "need" we* speak of is to enjoy our play. We* don't need anything outside of the stock UI to merely push buttons and listen to voice acting. If you enjoy that, great. We* however need more then that to enjoy the game.

 

If you actually enjoy TOR, I'd advise against you campaigning to push out any type of players. MMO's run on subs, and the more that are available the more likely it is to succeed. A lot of people throw hate at WoW, but there's a reason it is still going strong**. It caters to as many as possible. I don't want to see TOR go the way of Rifts, DDO, COH, etc etc.

 

* - min/maxers

** - They lost 2 million subs. Out of 12 million. That's less then 20% of their playerbase. Most MMO's lose a higher percentage (sometimes double or triple that) in their first year. Heck, some don't even get to 2 million players.

 

Awesome post man. I appreciate logical on topic posts.

 

I WANT this game to succeed. I played WoW for 7 years at every level, and I am looking for something different.

 

The operations so far are entertaining, but I am getting frustrated not knowing how to improve my group because of a lack of meter.

[Rattius]

That's very possible on the issue of fail parsers. They never seem to work after updates, and are generally a pain in the behind to use consistantly. If the combat log is coming though, I suppose it's moot. The first major nerf-bats will be on it's heels though, mark my words.

 

From Force Junkies @ http://www.forcejunkies.com/2011/11/18/become-one-with-the-ui-part-1-tankdps/

 

"At this last Fansite Summit, Georg Zoeller address the combat log, stating that it isn’t in SWTOR currently, but that it’s very high priority, and there’s a chance that it may make it in for launch."

 

These threads are all moot.

 

Please keep in mind though that the parsing that will become available differs (greatly?) from the add-ons that were widely available in 'another game.' I played and raided EQ2 while many members of this community were playing 'a different game,' and a 3rd party parser was all we had. No threat meters, no heal bots; no crutches of that nature. Somehow we still managed to clear the content on a regular basis. It wasn't always easy, but we did it.

 

If the tools are made available, content will be designed with their use in mind. If not, the same people who lobby in favor of add-ons would be in QQ hell because all content is being cleared by every PUG on the server and it's too easy therefore they have no distinction.

 

The scale of difficulty ends up being the same; the only difference is that one system has add-on and the other doesn't.

 

tl/dr: I'm looking forward to parsers, but do NOT want to see add-ons similar to 'another game.'