Grouped with a power tech today...disheartening

[Zaralyn]

You have several 10m abilities, including Force Scream (which you should be spamming anyways to proc Sonic Barrier) to use while you walk back to the mob. For bosses that do it a lot, put your back to a wall like in every other MMO.

 

Many mobs you cannot do that with in this game, they stay ranged and simply do not move, and we have no tool to get them into melee range since force pull was taken from us in beta.

 

Ideally, I would want to gather the mobs and put myself against a wall, but it simply doesn't work out that way in many Flashpoints cause either the mobs do not move and group up in a game that is more ranged based, or you don't have walls to go against most of the time (thinking of the False Emperor Flashpoint for example...where your back against a wall usually means a KB throwing you over the edge of the platform).

 

Juggs have a problem dealing with a group of ranged mobs, kb's and slows. Pretty much always been this way since beta where folks have complained about it. Most of the tools to deal with these we removed for PvP reasons and the worrry of making us unkiteable.

[Mystys]

First off, reading this entire thread made me smile. It really was quite amusing.

 

1. Juggs are phenomenal single target tanks with excellent mitigation abilities. It has a much higher skill cap than the other classes. In this regard, it doesn't make the class better worse, it makes it different. It suits some peoples play styles and not so much to others.

 

2. AOEing tanking takes more paying attention. What's the fun in standing there and spamming 3-4 aoe abilities over and over. At least for me that sounds pretty boring.

 

3. If you don't like it, don't play it.

[ururururu]

he probably put guard on you.

[neomakina]

Right, once again YOU SEE.

 

You don't KNOW.

 

You can't CONFIRM.

 

You can't PROVE.

 

You SEE.

 

See the term "Anecdotal Evidence". It's considered worthless evidence in both courts of law and scientific testing.

 

What you SEE is worthless.

 

What you can PROVE is all that matters.

 

There is no combat log. Nothing can be proven yet so all we have to go on is shady evidence. This is why you have to qualify your statement by proving some level of credibility.

[Lazzerswords]

I know this sounds crazy, but prhaps he was better than you?

[Wrathoran]

I just read the whole post one shot. All i usually play is tank in every mmo and like Yfelsung, i did alot of wow in my career but i did try almost every mmo.

 

So what's my point of view on that? I think Yfelsung is really right about everything that was discussed.

 

Most people on the forum are blind people that wanna see their favorite class upped because they feel subpar, i can understand that but that doesnt mean i do agree.

 

Im around 40 with my jugg so far and i got no problem tanking. The only time i was having a hard time was 1 to 13. Since i got guard and soresu form, its a breeze.

 

Just to make a small WoW notice on that. I love to compare to wow too since there is alot of different class and ALOT of people played it, i could compare to everquest 2 or AION or Warhammer but not that much people played it compared to wow.

 

So lets give an exemple , we are in Burning crusade, sith juggernaut is a warrior and bounty hunter is a paladin. One is king in single target, the other in aoe. Both can do what the other do, the paladin could single target tank and the warrior could aoe threat but they were not the "BEST" at it.

 

So how would i react having a Powertech BH taking aggro from me?

1- What the hell are we having 2 tanks in a 5 man group?

2- Why the hell is he tanking MY mob(s)? (some fight require 2 tanks for mechanic)

3- Did that ***** put a guard on me or something? (never saw if it would be applyable but i can be a reason if it is possible)

Is it bad if he take aggro from you? No he is a tank.

Is your class worthless and broken? No he is a tank.

You shouldnt have that dilema under level 40 because everything is a one man tank fight. I always did fine with my jugg so far, i dont see what is the problem. As long as any other group member other then a tank dont have aggro , the rest is an epeen contest.

 

----My view on tanking with a jugg at lower level----

 

I find my Juggernaut an incredible tank but if i need to go lets say on a 4 mobs pull, it require a little bit of work.

 

So first of all , the juggernaut is a TAB tank for aoe, like a tabbing sunder warrior

Lets take a low level priority i was using. So first put your defensive stance (soresu) and put guard on the person who do the best dps. Force charge in a group , smash the ground , free scream the target you wanna make sure YOU NEVER LOSE AGGRO ON (#1).

 

so lets put fake number to help you guys out.

#1 mob : 100 aggro

#2 mob : 50 aggro

#3 mob : 50 aggro

#4 mob : 50 aggro

 

Ok so one mob is well underway! now its time for the technique alot of beginner tank dont know about, tab attacking! You see, if you use saberward or if you got alot of defence, the skill retaliation will only cost you 1 and will come back quite often. This is the perfect ability to start mashing on different target while you still keep yourself on your main target. So tab and hit a target with it. If youre like me , sometime i pick up mob with my mouse that i know i have been neglecting and deal some damage. The goal is to keep the above number as high as possible on every mob. Those number are invisible and they are here for everyone. So its kinda like a race where you gotta beat people to. You know the mercenary gonna drop some heavy AOE, quick , smash and try hitting everyone a little bit, even if its your combo builder. Your goal is not to kill the target but to get the aggro and keep it on you, so even if you spread your damage everywhere, nobody care as long as you do your job.

 

After a while you can be around

 

#1 mob : 405 aggro

#2 mob : 440 aggro

#3 mob : 195 aggro

#4 mob : 400 aggro

 

So there you see, you been neglecting the ranged in the corner , try screaming at him or just force charge , drop one or two hit , just make sure he keep under your control so the healer doesnt take healing aggro or dps get aggro from aoe. Then return to the focused target and keep killing in the order you want. Dont forget that communication is a huge factor and assisting really help out. If someone is on the #1 , another on #2 , another on #3, everyone going all out on them ... they are really not helping the group or the situation. Why? First every target die more slowly, meaning there is more damage going on the tank for a longer period or if the aggro is spread then some people take a beating, ruining the healer's mana (or whatever the ressource). So if your group play like *******, it will always be harder to AoE tank, even more if your tank is not the "king" of that domain.

 

Its all simple and easy. Alot of people will write "I know about that, im no dumb ***". But clearly , why with green/blue gear from quest my pet never steal aggro? Why in group i usually have 95% of the aggro at all time. Of course i do mistake, of course i do get lazy etc. I might lose one on 100 but still, its fairly easy and doable as a jugg.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Wrathoran

[Farisx]

I dont understand why the hell its a problem when another tank pulls agro of you?

 

DK Threat was of the hook compared to warrior threat for a long time, still prot warriors held agro against DD and had way better mitigation.

 

As long as I can keep agro against DDs and have better mitigation its the powertech that needs a buff to be equal not me?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Farisx

[Wrathoran]

the thinking is...

 

i lose aggro from a tank ... ok, he can aoe taunt, he can single taunt , he have perhaps better aoe? perhaps aoe with high threat? does he have an early start on me to get the initial aggro boost? do he have guard on me? (if its possible to do that i dont know) Why are we attacking the same mobs? (tank should each tank something seperatly) Why are we 2 tanks in a 5 man? (change stance and do some dps) Is a regular party member (dps & heal) have aggro? no ? everything is fine then

 

So if nobody else then a tank have aggro, you cant cry because trying to take aggro from another tank depend on skill , level, gameplay experience, the pull , the resistance of the enemies and your own way to play (skills).

 

So if i was in a situation with my juggernaut where there would be a Powertech lifting off to do Death from above, i would search in the if there is a Boss (golden/silver) or if there is a golden star mob. Let the AoE king handle threat on all the ranged/runner etc. Of course you can drop a smash in to make sure that healer doesnt take aggro or whatever but concentrate on what you do best , take the highest damage dealing mob or the strongest in the group and single tank it, there is no way (except if taunt) that he will rip it from a jugg.

[Baizak]

So what your saying is that one class due to reputation should be shunned by groups and other players because all that matters is when everyone is level 50 it all balances out?

 

There is no way to battle the willfully ignorant. You should avoid grouping with people that base opinions off of hearsay. They will usually be horrible players and just blame everyone else around them or their own shortcomings.

 

I have had folks tell me that I am an amazing tank and that I changed their minds about juggernaut tanking. Our bad rep has been earned by bad players. Dare to prove the doubters wrong. If you learn what your abilities do and when to use them you will shine.

[Proto]

With all due respect, you're 36. You don't have Crushing Blow (the top Immortal talent) and you don't have the entire toolkit of Juggernaut abilities, nor the gear to support the playstyle.

 

I've done hard mode flashpoints (not just regular heroic quests) with Jugs and Powertechs tanking, and both have managed to do so successfully. The only thing the Powertech has on the Jug is the ability to corral mobs better due to Grapple, but a Jug can single target tank something like no one's business. Multiple mobs are a bit of an issue, but not much as long as you use proper CC (something you should be doing in a hard mode FP regardless of tank) and you understand that not every mob needs to be tanked by the MT all the time. Silver's can be off-tanked by a DPS Jug or Marauder easily, and you would want to burn the silver down first anyway since they will die faster and thus you'll remove a lot of incoming damage from the enemy group.

 

So, in short, things get much better as you level up, especially post-40 when you can have a full Immortal spec.

 

Well said and very true! It gets a lot better in the 40's when you're full Immortal. You can take a ton of damage but you definitely have to be a master of multi tasking and manage agro while watching the movement of the mobs and keeping a close eye on your party. Its a fun class.

[Gorstog]

Well, I'm a juggernaut and I'm tanking fine and have been tanking fine since I started.

 

I generally live by the rule that if one person can do it, and one person can't, the fault lies in the person not the class.

 

As long as one human being can tank effectively with a Juggernaut, then the class can tank.

 

Whether people have the skill level to use it may be another thing all together.

 

As I said, this is literally idenitcal to arguments about prot warriors in WoW in TBC and beyond.

 

Some warriors would scream about how we could not AoE tank as well as Pallys and Druids.

 

Guess what. I AoE tanked just fine then too.

 

I've played tanks exclusively in my MMO career. The Juggernaut is nothing new, it's the same tank style I've been playing for a decade. It's not UP, it's not OP, it's just a tank and a relatively easy one to use.

 

This has to be the most ridiculous post I've yet read on this forum.

 

1) Can you dunk a basketball?

2) Can you throw a football 60 yards through the air?

3) Can you free climb a shear mountain side?

 

There are plenty of things that "Some" people can manage to do because they are exceptionally talented. The big gripes about jug's is the fact that it requires significantly more player skill to have equivalent results to other tanks.

 

Same goes for the DPS side of things. Other classes can use 2 to 4 button rotations and put out equal or higher amounts of dps while the Jug is utilizing 10+ keys every fight.

 

While "Some" people can make the best of a bad situation it does not make for a very fun or balanced environment.

[DiLune]

And as the playerbase learns how "bad" Juggs are there will be fewer invites for Juggs, no matter how good you may be. And if you're a perfect little snowflake who always gets invites, no matter what, congratulations but that doesn't mean the class doesn't need help.

 

(And yes, I can tank as a Jugg, but I also have a Vanguard and know how much better the other side currently has it.)

[Wrathoran]

And as the playerbase learns how "bad" Juggs are there will be fewer invites for Juggs, no matter how good you may be. And if you're a perfect little snowflake who always gets invites, no matter what, congratulations but that doesn't mean the class doesn't need help.

 

(And yes, I can tank as a Jugg, but I also have a Vanguard and know how much better the other side currently has it.)

 

i dont see it like you. My jugg is way more single target damage and better mitigation then a powertech so far, jugg will be perfect for tanking a raid boss.

 

I dont say jugg doesnt need perhaps a buff somewhere but so far im pleased with my class.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Horsethief]

I heard a quote one time that seems to apply to this as well.

 

"It ain't the arrow, it's the Injun folks."

[Vachs]

now its time for the technique alot of beginner tank dont know about, tab attacking!

 

Cept that DPS don't really care and they go all out.

I usually let them die and don't taunt back if they go all out.

 

A few wipes later they'll learn pretty fast.

[NoNeedforCavalry]

he probably put guard on you.

 

This. If I am tanking and another tank is in the team, I'd do it.

 

The point of a tank is a damage soaker. I you have 2 tanks., the healer has to heal 2x as many people.

 

If the PT was losing agro to the Jug, the PT would be all irate.

 

As far as the lowbie vs 50 thing goes, my guardian holds aggro fine at 18 against vanguards on ST. There is a problem with AOE. It is not impossible, but it is rough on my guardian.

 

Some people looks at PT and Immortal and go "gasp! The trees are different!" I looked at the trees as I play both and realized that yes, the PT does have some nice talents. Venting heat, shield chance, +16% armor, I mean really? What does immortal get?

 

Then I remembered, rage on hit,def on soresu, def on retaliate, probably the best defensive CDs in the game, a lightsaber.

 

A good part of PT tree is playing catch-up with the already good soresu form, and a good chunk of the immortal is playing catch-up with the PT aggro generation.

 

It is my feeling that they are close enough.

 

One tank needs to be the threat lead. This is what lets OTs OT. If there was not a tank to pull from another tank, there would be no OT. I think that over time, immortals will be the MT, Assassins will be the OT(tanks stance plus backstab will get some attention), and PT will likely be on add duty. The reasons for this:

 

Immortal- MT - defensive CD, good ST threat, good defenses.

Assassin- OT- high spike threat, limited CDs, mob positioning,(IMO best not tanking long)

PowerTech- adds- high AOE to pull adds, range to pull adds, grapple to pull adds, crap CD, but high sustained dmg redux(good for fighting waves of adds that don't have heavy boss hits).

 

I know all can and have tanked, but that is what I expect will be preferred in the coming months. I'm fine with it that way too.

[thepickupman]

Currently, the Juggernaut does not have anything to make it stand out that a Powertech or Assassin does not have or can not do.[/Quote]

 

stop there, juggs are the toughest to kill out of all of the tanks in game. yes aoe threat is not as good as the others but thats what makes the class unique and challenging. i love tanking with my jugg because every pull im always thinking of how to overcome my disadvantages; and constantly learning the capabilities of my class/role. if you think like that, you'll see how bad***** juggs are at tanking. Stay optimistic! Jugg for life

[Noth]

stop there, juggs are the toughest to kill out of all of the tanks in game. yes aoe threat is not as good as the others but thats what makes the class unique and challenging. i love tanking with my jugg because every pull im always thinking of how to overcome my disadvantages; and constantly learning the capabilities of my class/role. if you think like that, you'll see how bad***** juggs are at tanking. Stay optimistic! Jugg for life

 

Actually it's hat very thing that proves how juggs are weaker than the other tanks. Juggs only are tougher when they get their 3rd cooldown and even then one of our cooldowns can actually kill us if it wears off at the wrong time.

[Anahka]

Actually it's hat very thing that proves how juggs are weaker than the other tanks. Juggs only are tougher when they get their 3rd cooldown and even then one of our cooldowns can actually kill us if it wears off at the wrong time.

 

Endure Pain leaves you at 1 hp when it wears off and you lost most health than you have actually (if that makes sense).

 

The mob you're fighting probably doesn't care so he'll easily kill you regardless. But technically EP doesn't kill you.

[maestruljedi]

Here's feedback from a lvl 29 Juggernaut. Ran Cademimu just late last night with a merc, sorc and sniper, all in 31-33 range. It was the smoothest run i ever had, we finished it in some 15-20 mins, nobody died and no one dropped below 70% hp, even with those bugged evading mobs/turrets. No one was able to pull mobs off me, and we're talking sniper/merc dps here, which isn't bad at all and quite bursty. They weren't even guarded, i put my guard on the healer sorc.

 

Things I did right: kept my gear on par with level the best i could, buying guardian armorings for commendations and of course, the best guardian hilt i could find for my lightsaber. No threat issues, no squishiness issues.

 

Props to the tanks in this thread that actually know what they're doing and acknowledging it's not rocket science.

Edited January 6, 2012 by maestruljedi

[Bahn]

THe only issue I have had so far was on a heroic 4 quest on Taris. 4 mobs, spread far enough apart where scream will not hit the farthest end unless I leave melee range of the other end.

 

After the pull, things would have gone smoothly as I can jackrabbit around wacking and screaming. However, the way the mobs were placed made it very difficult due to los holes and the fact that two mobs rappel in after the fight officially starts.

 

Last night, I hit 36 and the world is different. Saber throw. Those two little words and one additional ability has changed the way I can tank and made it so much easier to handle these types of pulls with limited cc.

 

Seems that Jugg tanks are late bloomers when it comes to tanking, which has been said 85bajillion times.

[midnitemonster]

THe only issue I have had so far was on a heroic 4 quest on Taris. 4 mobs, spread far enough apart where scream will not hit the farthest end unless I leave melee range of the other end.

 

After the pull, things would have gone smoothly as I can jackrabbit around wacking and screaming. However, the way the mobs were placed made it very difficult due to los holes and the fact that two mobs rappel in after the fight officially starts.

 

Last night, I hit 36 and the world is different. Saber throw. Those two little words and one additional ability has changed the way I can tank and made it so much easier to handle these types of pulls with limited cc.

 

Seems that Jugg tanks are late bloomers when it comes to tanking, which has been said 85bajillion times.

 

Well outside of Saber Throw, Juggs need to realize that jumping in to every fight is not always the best option. When guys are spread out that much it is better to hit Rage walk in, get aggro then Jump Charge to the farthest and get aggro while walking back to the first.

 

My personal favorite is watching the Jugg Force Charge and enemy only to be knocked way back blow his cool down and walk back. Then do it again on the same enemy 10 feet away, except now his cool down is not back up. Learn to not Force Charge every enemy, so you are able to get back to it after the knock back asap. Or remember that Disrupt is your friend.

Edited January 6, 2012 by midnitemonster

[Rotsam]

I'm only at 43 with my jugg -- been leveling immortal since the beginning. I run with a group almost constantly, so I've been able to get the hang of the threat mechanics and techniques. I can hold single target threat like a boss, even with a sniper several levels ahead of me in the group. Multi-mob threat is a bit of a challenge, but just requires proper rage management and timing. Use your stuns, and make sure dps is on a single target (so you can focus too). My biggest problem is with overhealing -- it appears that over heals generate threat, so if my healer is spamming, then she's likely to grab aggro. Proper communication and use of cooldowns mitigates this issue substantially. Also, if you DPS is not using their interrupts it can be very frustrating because most of my tab targets are getting backhand and force choke, which leaves me with only a single interrupt for the primary target.

 

I've read plenty about how broken I am, but I don't really feel broken. I'd much rather learn to tank with a class that makes me work than go with something ez-mode. I played a bear tank in wow and literally could hold aggro on just about anything with a single button (swipe, swipe, swipe, etc). I like how this game challenges me and increases the need for overall awareness. I haven't played with a PT, so perhaps they are significantly better. Bottom line, there hasn't been any content I couldn't tackle as a jugg, so meh.

[Bahn]

Well outside of Saber Throw, Juggs need to realize that jumping in to every fight is not always the best option. When guys are spread out that much it is better to hit Rage walk in, get aggro then Jump Charge to the farthest and get aggro while walking back to the first.

 

My personal favorite is watching the Jugg Force Charge and enemy only to be knocked way back blow his cool down and walk back. Then do it again on the same enemy 10 feet away, except now his cool down is not back up. Learn to not Force Charge every enemy, so you are able to get back to it after the knock back asap. Or remember that Disrupt is your friend.

 

I just had a head slapping moment. I get so used to leaping into every fight that it has become almost an automatic response.

 

You are correct on the second paragraph as well. That is so annoying, but easily mitigated by walking in the first time!

 

Thank you, because I honestly was doing it wrong. I feel like a nitwit now...

[Archontruth]

Powertechs can control packs easier, but Juggernauts really shine in Ops and against tough bosses. As a Biochem Juggernaut I have Four different "panic" moves to keep me alive against a tough boss: Invincible, Saber Ward, Endure Pain+Rakata Medpac, and Rakata Defense Adrenal.