Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Camping a node is NOT EXPLOITING. In zero, none, naadaa MMOs would this be a reasonable definition of exploiting. This heavy-handedness is going to drive many away. If this is the reaction for something like this it will only get worse. Camping a node when you're flipping the zone to instantly respawn the node is exploiting in-game mechanics. When are you going to see the entire picture? Edited January 3, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Already been explained. The slicing skill was adjusted. Noone camped anything they just did slicing missions. Its nothing even remotely the same as going to an area 30 levels above you and looting containers with lvl 50 loot. Seems like common sense to me. except a person could bot 8 characters to make a fortune and only level them to 10 each. you could do like i saw many talking about on the forums. hopping from character to character just doing slicing and at 400 slicing the rewards are based on level 50 rewards. I have also heard of people running space missions to get level 50 rewards at low levels. this seems very similar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggomy Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Why does it matter if I camped something or sent a companion to do missions? See you're looking at intent - these people must have intended to break the game, and slicers were just innocent bystanders. But that's a real rose-tinted view of those previous events. Everyone was screaming take slicing to make bank over and over, BECAUSE they knew it was imbalanced. At the very least, could I get you to agree that it's logically consistent to ban anyone suggesting that someone take slicing simply because it's broken and leads to inordinate reward? Because that didn't happen either. You are spinning around the issue without touching on it. Noone was getting level 50 loot fro slicing. Noone was going someplace they arent the right level for. Is it really that hard for you to see the difference? What were people supposed to do stop using the skill completely? They could easily stop looting those lvl 50 chests go someplace else loot chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggomy Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 except a person could bot 8 characters to make a fortune and only level them to 10 each. you could do like i saw many talking about on the forums. hopping from character to character just doing slicing and at 400 slicing the rewards are based on level 50 rewards. I have also heard of people running space missions to get level 50 rewards at low levels. this seems very similar to me. Why do you guys keep talking about slicing? This had nothing to do with slicing. You dont need slicing to loot the chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Camping a noed when you're flipping the zone to instantly respawn the node is exploiting in-game mechanics. When are you going to see the entire picture? When bioware says that was what they were doing. Bio has not said that they were exploiting game mechanics, the OP says that they were exploiting the chest to get rewards that were not level appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) If you can't see the difference between doing something as intended and not then you have some sort of problem. Slicing pre-nerf was working as intended, it was found it was giving excessive yeilds and that changed. Flipping a zone to reset boxes and get infinte credits is NOT intended and is cheating. Again with the insults. Stop it, please. This is a personal plea. I do not "have some sort of problem" and I think you can convey your message in a way that isn't so antisocial and antagonistic. That it was giving rewards that were excessive MEANS it WASN'T working as intended. The statement is redundant. I'm not saying that flipping a zone like they did for such reward isn't cheating. I'm saying that, based on the definition given to me, this should constitute an exploit. Edited January 3, 2012 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Camping a noed when you're flipping the zone to instantly respawn the node is exploiting in-game mechanics. When are you going to see the entire picture? I will see the 'entire picture' when it is explained as such. Right now the official reply doesn't state that. Only that folks were 'repeatedly' looting. A little more explanation is needed here. They can give clarity without going into how the 'exploit' works. A simple answer to whether or not sitting around and looting chests/nodes for hours on end is against the rules would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 When bioware says that was what they were doing. Bio has not said that they were exploiting game mechanics, the OP says that they were exploiting the chest to get rewards that were not level appropriate. They're not going to spell out how to exploit the game. That would be incredibly stupid. Why would they teach people how to exploit their game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chizhik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If it is fruitful and unintended you are exploiting a design flaw. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exploit 1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents. 2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. 1. to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends 2. to make the best use of All of these definitions arguably fit in place of 'exploiting' a design flaw. Do you have a separate dictionary we can all have a look at? If I'm reading Mr. Reid's original post and the follow up correctly, the action itself was not viewed as an exploit - talking a tour of Ilum as a lowbie and looting a few nodes along the way seems to be fine; it's doing it "excessively" that's resulting in warnings and suspensions. The problem is that "excessively" was left undefined, leaving me to guess what Bioware would deem to be excessive and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Why do you guys keep talking about slicing? This had nothing to do with slicing. You dont need slicing to loot the chests. because it was being used for the same thing to get credits that you could not make otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 They're not going to spell out how to exploit the game. That would be incredibly stupid. Why would they teach people how to exploit their game? because they could just ban anyone that did it after they come out and said that it was an exploit. since the people that did it after the announcement would know the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 because they could just ban anyone that did it after they come out and said that it was an exploit. since the people that did it after the announcement would know the consequences. So you're telling Bioware it would be better to tell people how to exploit their game, then ban those people instead of giving those same people a warning for their first infraction? That seems logical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zones Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Again with the insults. Stop it, please. This is a personal plea. I do not "have some sort of problem" and I think you can convey your message in a way that isn't so antisocial and antagonistic. That it was giving rewards that were excessive MEANS it WASN'T working as intended. The statement is redundant. I'm not saying that flipping a zone like they did for such reward isn't cheating. I'm saying that, based on the definition given to me, this should constitute an exploit. You are saying absolutely crazy things. It's like you are incapible of telling right from wrong. I understand that you are being difficult on purpose but not why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingoperson Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 No, them having the policy 'If it's fruitful and unintended then it's an exploit' would require them to ban the people who made bank off slicing pre-nerf. I'm hoping they don't view it the same way as the person I quoted, because THEN you'd need to ban people. No, this is incorrect. The only conclusion I can draw is that you are unaware of the nature of the SWTOR disciplinary system. If someone is exploiting something there are a range of reactions that can be taken (as I stated previously) depending on the particular exploit. One of these is 'no reaction at all'. The SWTOR system, like the real legal system, is a matter of degrees and nuances. Even when an exploit is very clearly and obviously and undoubtedly an exploit, that still leaves a subjective element of punishment when it comes to the particular severity of the exploit and the circumstances it was committed under. If the severity is low or the circumstances are ameliorating then lower or no punishment can also be warranted as a reaction. I hope this helps things become clearer for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) You are spinning around the issue without touching on it. Noone was getting level 50 loot fro slicing. Noone was going someplace they arent the right level for. Is it really that hard for you to see the difference? What were people supposed to do stop using the skill completely? They could easily stop looting those lvl 50 chests go someplace else loot chests. Level 50 loot is a red herring. This is about credits. They have no problem with people being on Ilum, or looting the chests even. Just "doing it excessively" (which I guess is Biowarese for they exploited to get the chests to spawn which they then looted). Yes, it's really hard for me to understand. If people were so responsible they could take up a new profession or not use it until being fixed. Instead, they advocated the use thereof specifically because it was broken and you're saying that even people who have been recorded as encouraging this aren't engaging in exploitation. Edited January 3, 2012 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You are saying absolutely crazy things. It's like you are incapible of telling right from wrong. I understand that you are being difficult on purpose but not why. No, I'm not. I can tell you I'm not because you'd have more to say other than I have a problem or that I'm saying absolutely crazy things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 So you're telling Bioware it would be better to tell people how to exploit their game, then ban those people instead of giving those same people a warning for their first infraction? That seems logical... more logical than leaving everyone wondering why they are suspending and banning people. especially when they say that anyone found doing it would result in a permanent ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 No, this is incorrect. The only conclusion I can draw is that you are unaware of the nature of the SWTOR disciplinary system. If someone is exploiting something there are a range of reactions that can be taken (as I stated previously) depending on the particular exploit. One of these is 'no reaction at all'. The SWTOR system, like the real legal system, is a matter of degrees and nuances. Even when an exploit is very clearly and obviously and undoubtedly an exploit, that still leaves a subjective element of punishment when it comes to the particular severity of the exploit and the circumstances it was committed under. If the severity is low or the circumstances are ameliorating then lower or no punishment can also be warranted as a reaction. I hope this helps things become clearer for you. I'm not encouraged when you're basically telling me the rules depend on the whims of the person enforcing them. In modern legal systems you still have a series of checks that are way more complex than an appeals process that kicks the case back to the same entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarious Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Well here we are again then. If Bioware is being consistent they would ban everyone with slicing pre-nerf because it meets all of those criteria. Yet this seems to be ridiculous to some. Why? Because slicing was put into the game in the manner it was intended to be used at the time. A company is not going to punish customers for using anything as it was intended to be used. If a customer found a way to make the box not vanish and allow them to slice it over and over... Guess what? They are going to take action on that customer. Back in 1997 in Ultima Online... certain players found that if they used the recall spell to travel across certain zone lines.. That they could trade items and both people in the trade would end up with the item (a dupe). Now obviously people in the game zoned over these lines every day as was intended. Only certain players were using a flaw in the intended gameplay to create an exploitive outcome... and were banned. If you really can't comprehend that's what they took action against was this same type of mechanic... well I really don't know what to say (people were exploiting which is why in one of the various remarks it was described as not being normal game play. I will agree that BioWare could word things much better than they do). People in general pretty much have a grasp of how the mechanics are supposed to work. Which is exactly why a certain number of people were doing this same action over and over... instead of playing the game like everyone else. Or are we really supposed to believe they just thought the design intention of the game was to skip 30 levels (or whatever relative number) of planets... to zoom to Ilum and loot these containers for hours every day? The only issue from my point of view.. is that this relatively small number of accounts were not permanently removed from the game as they should have been (in my opinion). I've been playing MMO's for longer than I would like to admit.. and to be honest I am sick of people who cheat... and the one thing I would really like is for them to be removed instead of getting a slap on the wrist. "It was just an accident I kept looting those containers for 15 hours a day over the last 10 days..." *note: this is just an example I made up to illustrate a point and is not intended to accurately protray someone who was looting those containers for hours a day every day* seriously? At least they were just generating large numbers of credits that affected the games economy and not trying to RMT them. Edited January 3, 2012 by antarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) more logical than leaving everyone wondering why they are suspending and banning people. especially when they say that anyone found doing it would result in a permanent ban. The only people who are wondering what is causing others to be banned are people who are refusing to believe what they are being told. Several people have said exactly how the exploit works, yet you wont believe it unless someone from Bioware says it. However, you know they wont because they're not going to tell you how to exploit the game. All you're doing is being purposefully obtuse. Edited January 3, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Because slicing was put into the game in the manner it was intended to be used at the time. A company is not going to punish customers for using anything as it was intended to be used. If a customer found a way to make the box not vanish and allow them to slice it over and over... Guess what? They are going to take action on that customer. Back in 1997 in Ultima Online... certain players found that if they used the recall spell to travel across certain zone lines.. That they could trade items and both people in the trade would end up with the item (a dupe). Now obviously people in the game zoned over these lines every day as was intended. Only certain players were using a flaw in the intended gameplay to create an exploitive outcome... and were banned. If you really can't comprehend that what they took action against was this same type of mechanic... well I really don't know what to say. People in general pretty much have a grasp of how the mechanics are supposed to work. Which is exactly why a certain number of people were doing this same action over and over... instead of playing the game like everyone else. Or are we really supposed to believe they just thought the design intention of the game was to skip 30 levels (or whatever relative number) of planets... to zoom to Ilum and loot these containers for hours every day? The only issue from my point of view.. is that this relatively small number of accounts were not permanently removed from the game as they should have been (in my opinion). I've been playing MMO's for longer than I would like to admit.. and to be honest I am sick of people who cheat... and the one thing I would really like is for them to be removed instead of getting a slap on the wrist. "It was just an accident I kept looting those containers for 15 hours a day over the last 10 days..." *note: this is just an example I made up to illustrate a point and is not intended to accurately protray someone who was looting those containers for hours a day every day* seriously? At least they were just generating large numbers of credits that affected the games economy and not trying to RMT them. And everything you stated was in no way cheating. Reid says himself that they have no problem with low levels on Ilum. If they did, they could simply prohibit travel there until the upper levels. The only way this is a problem is if they actively exploited the wpvp to make the chests spawn faster. Sitting in a spot and looting a chest is not an exploit no matter how lucrative it is, just like slicing wasn't an exploit no matter how lucrative it is. The exploit happens when wpvp is exploited to speed up their spawn rates. Edited January 3, 2012 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The only way this is a problem is if they actively exploited the wpvp to make the chests spawn faster. So you're finally starting to understand what the exploit is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monegames Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If a customer found a way to make the box not vanish and allow them to slice it over and over... Guess what? They are going to take action on that customer. please quote for me where that was said to be done. They said that the people involved were excessively camping a known chest and were getting more credits than their appropriate level. no where does it say they were glitching or anything just camping it to get cash. they dont have to come out and say what the exploit is or how it is done but atleast say that their was an exploit to get it to respawn faster or something and the people asking about it will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) So you're finally starting to understand what the exploit is? I've been saying it over and over again for several pages, are you blind or just not reading my posts? That doesn't mean there still aren't people saying REALLY silly things in this thread repeatedly. I'm not optimistic enough to believe you understand why Reid didn't communicate this well. At all. Edited January 3, 2012 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) I've been saying it over and over again for several pages, are you blind or just not reading my posts? That doesn't mean there still aren't people saying REALLY silly things in this thread repeatedly. Actually, no I haven't been reading your posts since I haven't been conversing with you. Way to be incredibly rude though; I'm sure you get positive replies all the time that way. Edited January 3, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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