Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Owarida]

That said, BioWare has never made an MMO before. We need to be patient while they "investigate" this issue because the game just friggin launched. What BioWare needs to understand is that a significant portion of the community thinks this is a problem and whether or not the devs listen to us WILL determine the future of this game.

 

They didn't listen to the beta testers about this. Why would they listen now?

 

Yes, it just launched. Big deal. I said previously, and will say again; there is absolutely no way that BW employees didn't notice this. Whether it was from employees playing it(they had to have seen this because the community saw it fast enough to make this post on Dec. 26th and we're coming up on almost four completely filled threads about it) or beta testers pointing it out.

 

The fact that they've said nothing but, 'we're looking at it,' says how badly messed up it really is. If it was an easy fix, it'd be done already or we'd at least have been told it'll be fixed very soon.

 

They have not done these things.

[Krippi]

I would like to add your post as well to the OP. High level play is always very valuable. However, do you have a link to your Arena Accomplishments or anything to prove your Ranked Claim etc.?

 

 

Tyvm

 

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't provide you with any proof as the season I played very seriously was 5 years ago (started in 2007), then I quit. Got back to WoW couple days ago after I was tired of the delay in ToR. I used to be on arenajunkies.com, but can't find it anymore.

The only proof is pretty much my gear that is left in my bank, as even the achievements for highest rating only count your rating (or somewhere around) since they implemented the system/this achievement.

 

Just gonna add I also play Quake Live (if you're familiar with it, almost the same as quake 3, just bit worse netcode) in the top tier. Made couple of movies, played mostly Polish tournaments due to ping (month ago used to play in one of 3 best Polish clans, where Polish scene is 2nd best in the world). Kripp is my profle if you want to check it out.

The delay/lag on Quake Live (like any fps) is incredibly crucial, above 50 and you will not be able to fully spread your wings.

 

Anyway, hope this gets fixed soon.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Krippi

[zootzoot]

It may be possible that it "masks" the initial ability delay but it does not at all solve the discussed issue. This claim has been extinguished since Thread 1 (within the first 20-50 pages).

 

Please remember that this is a broad scope problem with the combat design and mechanics. Animation/Ability execution is just as much part of it (or more) than initial ability firing (through queue etc.).

 

 

Again, I do believe it may be possible that 0.0 or 1.0 or any other tweaks mask the overall issue slightly (for the individual) but remember that this does not at all resolve anything.

 

- Please check out the video examples in the OP and skim through some of the thread(s).

 

I know it doesn't fix the real issue which is not what I said. All I know is I get less misfires now with the queue at zero. I still get them on occasion but not as often.

[Xcore]

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't provide you with any proof as the season I played very seriously was 5 years ago (started in 2007), then I quit. Got back to WoW couple days ago after I was tired of the delay in ToR. I used to be on arenajunkies.com, but can't find it anymore.

The only proof is pretty much my gear that is left in my bank, as even the achievements for highest rating only count your rating (or somewhere around) since they implemented the system/this achievement.

 

Just gonna add I also play Quake Live (if you're familiar with it, almost the same as quake 3, just bit worse netcode) in the top tier. Made couple of movies, played mostly Polish tournaments due to ping (month ago used to play in one of 3 best Polish clans, where Polish scene is 2nd best in the world). Kripp is my profle if you want to check it out.

The delay/lag on Quake Live (like any fps) is incredibly crucial, above 50 and you will not be able to fully spread your wings.

 

Anyway, hope this gets fixed soon.

 

That would work, link please if possible.

[Krippi]

That would work, link please if possible.

 

Sure thing. Will add when I get back home at midnight (at work atm) or tomorrow when I wake up.

[Gadzooks]

The thing that confuses me most is that I never had ability lag, or horrid Framerates in warzones UNTIL release. The handful of beta weekends I did didnt have this problem.

 

To me, that says "New bug", which seems like all they would need to do is compare old versions of the code to new, and pay attention to the areas of the code that were changed from past versions.

 

Do they not have any sort of version control? No form of source safe? Nothing that allows them to do some simple deductive detective work with the game code? From biowares commments, they are treating this issue like its some big unknown, mysterious, globally encompassing thing that could exist anywhere and everywhere and is unrealistically impossible to track down to any set source.

 

That doesnt seem like a very good sign, not at all.

[Wilbobiggs]

I set my threshold to zero and it seems to have fixed many of my issues.

 

I Mentioned this exact thing on page 76 of this (some other things as well) thread and was immediately shut down. It worked for me and like I said I have NO idea why.

[Tiron_Raptor]

No sorry, if you don't see the ability delay you are either slow or totally clueless as to what people are explaining. and no oh don't mash buttons or get your timing right lines from the BDF is going to change this fact.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQSvpfTaho&feature=plcp&context=C3ac0d9bUDOEgsToPDskIueQtIRmnTZX-jzIDR07ra

 

Watch that vid, specifically 0:07 to 0:09 I hit rocket blast one time, one press of the button as unload finishes its channel, and it takes TWO SECONDS from activation to even starting the animation for firing it. Much less calculating damage.

 

Watch 0:15 to 0:17 Again the delay on rocket blast is so long to fire that by the time it hits explosive dart is already going off!

 

Watch the end, unloads channel is half finished before it even decides to fire.

 

But there's no ability delay right? I should just stop mashing and adapt?

 

Do us all a favor, just get out of the thread.

 

What I see on your video...

 

The GCD Starts BEFORE your keypresses are registered.

 

The First rocket blast starts the GCD, which is abruptly aborted because your target was already dead from the end of the unload(Network Latency and Client Simulation issue, same as the mount-dismount problem).

 

You then switch targets and fire a rocket blast at the target, which triggers the GCD correctly.

 

You switch targets again, wait until the animation for rocket blast plays and the damage registers to use that green thing in slot 1. You then use the explosive-dart-thing (the trooper's sticky grenade equiv), wait a second before hitting rocket blast again, then wait until the animation finishes to hit the green thing again (default attack?). Target dies.

 

You switch targets and fire unload, which kills the target, causing your attempted rocket blast to go grey before you even hit it.

 

I'm seeing a delay before the ANIMATIONS play, I'm not seeing any delay in your client's actual responses or the use of abilities. The animations are meaningless: it's just for show. The reason the damage from rocket blast doesn't appear until the visible rocket hits the target is that the client is holding it back to match it with the anim for appearance's sake. World of Warcraft does the same thing with bolt spells.

 

You could very easily be chaining abilities much faster than you are by ignoring the animations and only paying attention to the cooldowns.

 

Heck, I play a trooper. My abilities are the exact same as a bounty hunter's, just with different names and animations. I never have any trouble with grenade blast holding me up.

[Tiron_Raptor]

I don't believe you have a firm enough grasp on the issue to make the claims and statements that you do in your thread.

 

I urge you to re-evaluate your position.

 

I urge you to do some personal testing, and stop making mistaken evaluations based on the misevaluated claims of others.

 

That last video you added to the OP shows only a delay in animations, not a delay in abilities. The animations are cosmetic and have no mechanical effect.

 

If he was attempting to fire abilities and failing because the anim was playing it'd be one thing, but if you watch he doesn't even try to hit the buttons until after the anim has finished. (the keypress registers even if it fails for any reason, including GCD).

 

He's simply watching the wrong thing: you watch the cooldowns, not the animations.

[CVSiN]

What I see on your video...

 

The GCD Starts BEFORE your keypresses are registered.

 

The First rocket blast starts the GCD, which is abruptly aborted because your target was already dead from the end of the unload(Network Latency and Client Simulation issue, same as the mount-dismount problem).

 

You then switch targets and fire a rocket blast at the target, which triggers the GCD correctly.

 

You switch targets again, wait until the animation for rocket blast plays and the damage registers to use that green thing in slot 1. You then use the explosive-dart-thing (the trooper's sticky grenade equiv), wait a second before hitting rocket blast again, then wait until the animation finishes to hit the green thing again (default attack?). Target dies.

 

You switch targets and fire unload, which kills the target, causing your attempted rocket blast to go grey before you even hit it.

 

I'm seeing a delay before the ANIMATIONS play, I'm not seeing any delay in your client's actual responses or the use of abilities. The animations are meaningless: it's just for show. The reason the damage from rocket blast doesn't appear until the visible rocket hits the target is that the client is holding it back to match it with the anim for appearance's sake. World of Warcraft does the same thing with bolt spells.

 

You could very easily be chaining abilities much faster than you are by ignoring the animations and only paying attention to the cooldowns.

 

Heck, I play a trooper. My abilities are the exact same as a bounty hunter's, just with different names and animations. I never have any trouble with grenade blast holding me up.

 

exactly...

i dont see the issue.. he is bouncing on the GCD. thats the issue.

[Zeetofox]

I urge you to do some personal testing, and stop making mistaken evaluations based on the misevaluated claims of others.

 

That last video you added to the OP shows only a delay in animations, not a delay in abilities. The animations are cosmetic and have no mechanical effect.

 

If he was attempting to fire abilities and failing because the anim was playing it'd be one thing, but if you watch he doesn't even try to hit the buttons until after the anim has finished. (the keypress registers even if it fails for any reason, including GCD).

 

He's simply watching the wrong thing: you watch the cooldowns, not the animations.

 

The problem in his video was showing how his grenades were shooting upon animation finish rather then cast finish which still is a problem.

[Xcore]

I urge you to do some personal testing, and stop making mistaken evaluations based on the misevaluated claims of others.

 

That last video you added to the OP shows only a delay in animations, not a delay in abilities. The animations are cosmetic and have no mechanical effect.

 

If he was attempting to fire abilities and failing because the anim was playing it'd be one thing, but if you watch he doesn't even try to hit the buttons until after the anim has finished. (the keypress registers even if it fails for any reason, including GCD).

 

He's simply watching the wrong thing: you watch the cooldowns, not the animations.

 

You know, I've only been talking to you for the past 4000+ posts and 4 (capped) threads... Stop coming into the tread at the tail-end claiming to know what you're talking about and that you have the wisdom of suddenly falsifying the past four threads.

 

You are not that guy, one to two of you per thread is annoying as hell.

 

Here:

 

[Khoranth]

If you are right and they "created" laggy and unresponsive controls to eliminate button spamming then shame on them. However, I believe they probably created the system and now they realize it's flawed.

 

Someone posted a GM response earlier in this thread That said exactly that. The GM response was to him reporting abilities not firing off correctly when he tried to use them in rapid succession, the GM response stated that bioware designed the combat system like that ON PURPOSE to stop button spamming ( or skillful fast-paced play, in lamens terms)

 

So if you are reading this thread still think the unresponsive controls are a problem, YOU ARE WRONG, the controls are working as intended , as designed by bioware.

 

Apparently bioware thinks they can take a huge chunk of WoW's subs, then use behavioural conditioning, by punishing fast-paced players with unresponsive, laggy, clunky controls, and then they think millions and millions people will adjust to this

"new era of slow paced, animation watching'' gaming.

[Tiron_Raptor]

The problem in his video was showing how his grenades were shooting upon animation finish rather then cast finish which still is a problem.

 

That depends on if the grenade firing MEANS anything.

 

It could very well be that the client is waiting to render the anim until it gets the 'you damaged the target for xx with rocket blast' message from the server, and then only showing the damage when the animation completes. In this case the target has already taken the damage before the animation even starts. Something similar happens with bolt spells on world of warcraft: It's why sometimes, when you are killed by a bolt spell, you fall down dead and your corpse is then hit by the bolt that killed you.

 

Either way, if the message has already been sent to and accepted by the server, the mechanical effect is the same regardless of when the animation plays. He could've fired another rocket, or any of various other abilities in the time he was waiting for the animation to play, and it almost certainly would've gone off flawlessly, and both abilities would've done full damage.

 

If the animation not having played yet was actually preventing abilities from being used, it'd be a problem.

 

The trick here is to try chaining abilities as fast as you can and see what happens. Ignore the animations and only watch the cooldowns. Record a video of that and post it. This is what I did to an elite on alderaan, and what I observed was that if I hit the button after the GCD was finished, it always went off instantly. If I hit it before the GCD was finished with the ability action queue enabled, it took a period of time after the GCD for the queue to fire the ability.

 

If, when going as fast as you can, something doesn't fire and does no damage, THEN you have a problem. Otherwise it's just cosmetic.

[Zeetofox]

Someone posted a GM response earlier in this thread That said exactly that. The GM response was to him reporting abilities not firing off correctly when he tried to use them in rapid succession, the GM response stated that bioware designed the combat system like that ON PURPOSE to stop button spamming ( or skillful fast-paced play, in lamens terms)

 

So if you are reading this thread still think the unresponsive controls are a problem, YOU ARE WRONG, the controls are working as intended , as designed by bioware.

 

Apparently bioware thinks they can take a huge chunk of WoW's subs, then use behavioural conditioning, by punishing fast-paced players with unresponsive, laggy, clunky controls, and then they think millions and millions people will adjust to this

"new era of slow paced, animation watching'' gaming.

 

SS or didnt happen?

[Tiron_Raptor]

You know, I've only been talking to you for the past 4000+ posts and 4 (capped) threads... Stop coming into the tread at the tail-end claiming to know what you're talking about and that you have the wisdom of suddenly falsifying the past four threads.

 

You are not that guy, one to two of you per thread is annoying as hell.

 

Here:

 

 

I'll analyze that when I get back from class.

 

And I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. I've done tests of my own to verify the issue or lack thereof.

 

I've also been dealing with network latency explanations for years: I caused a change to be made to the JTL UI late in the beta by explaining that a commonly reported bug was really a network latency issue. I once got complimented by a blue on the WoW forums for explaining the network latency problems and their inability to solved.

 

There is a lot of misinterpretation and lumping together of multiple problems going on here. I'm just trying to help people understand what's actually happening.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Taurusaud]

Someone posted a GM response earlier in this thread That said exactly that. The GM response was to him reporting abilities not firing off correctly when he tried to use them in rapid succession, the GM response stated that bioware designed the combat system like that ON PURPOSE to stop button spamming ( or skillful fast-paced play, in lamens terms)

 

So if you are reading this thread still think the unresponsive controls are a problem, YOU ARE WRONG, the controls are working as intended , as designed by bioware.

 

Apparently bioware thinks they can take a huge chunk of WoW's subs, then use behavioural conditioning, by punishing fast-paced players with unresponsive, laggy, clunky controls, and then they think millions and millions people will adjust to this

"new era of slow paced, animation watching'' gaming.

 

 

This isn't a bug, this is intentional design. See this way good players don't have an advantage over bad players - when the UI fails randomly everybody is equal!! Isn't this the most balanced ingenious design evar!!1

 

</walks away></slams car door></speeds off>

[kalibri]

I wish everyone watching this thread good luck with a resolution, whatever that may be, I personally can't put up with this crap anymore. I'll just park my character somewhere and check back in a month or two. Meanwhile I'm passing my account to my wife so she can try it and see why I rage when doing warzones, sometimes.

[Gadzooks]

Someone posted a GM response earlier in this thread That said exactly that. The GM response was to him reporting abilities not firing off correctly when he tried to use them in rapid succession, the GM response stated that bioware designed the combat system like that ON PURPOSE to stop button spamming ( or skillful fast-paced play, in lamens terms)

 

So if you are reading this thread still think the unresponsive controls are a problem, YOU ARE WRONG, the controls are working as intended , as designed by bioware.

 

Apparently bioware thinks they can take a huge chunk of WoW's subs, then use behavioural conditioning, by punishing fast-paced players with unresponsive, laggy, clunky controls, and then they think millions and millions people will adjust to this

"new era of slow paced, animation watching'' gaming.

 

So

 

If im standing there, not using any ability

 

I click my ability to use it

 

0.5 seconds go by - nothing happens

1.0 seconds go by - nothing happens

1.5 seconds go by - nothing happens

2.0 seconds go by - my ability activates

 

Thats working as intended?

58 ms ping

 

I see the flash on my hotbar as I press the 1,2, or whatever key to use the ability

 

Hell, I can sit there and hit the ability key 5-6 times before the ability actually goes off if im quick. It makes no difference though.

 

Note at the beginning, I said "Standing there doing nothing" Which means im not trying to use an ability off of the GCD of another ability.

 

There IS an ability delay bug. You dont have it. Awesome. Why are you here when you could be playing without this issue affecting you? Im here because it IS affecting my gameplay. Clearly one of us is full of nonsense.

[Zeetofox]

I'll analyze that when I get back from class.

 

And I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. I've done tests of my own to verify the issue or lack thereof.

 

I've also been dealing with network latency explanations for years: I caused a change to be made to the JTL UI late in the beta by explaining that a commonly reported bug was really a network latency issue. I once got complimented by a blue on the WoW forums for explaining the network latency problems and their inability to solved.

 

There is a lot of misinterpretation and lumping together of multiple problems going on here. I'm just trying to help people understand what's actually happening.

 

I have around 60 MS normally and the problem is still evident, although i must say i just logged in for today and i haven't noticed it eating a single GCD or as much delay, granted i've only fought a couple of mobs so far and haven't pvp'd. I'll have to get back to you guys on that. Anyways i see the problem clear as day, 2750 rated 3v3 from WoW.

[Khoranth]

SS or didnt happen?

 

it is in this thread, you want a SS of this thread? just go read it and find it yourself, or your response didn't happen.

[Xcore]

I'll analyze that when I get back from class.

 

And I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. I've done tests of my own to verify the issue or lack thereof.

 

I've also been dealing with network latency explanations for years: I caused a change to be made to the JTL UI late in the beta by explaining that a commonly reported bug was really a network latency issue. I once got complimented by a blue on the WoW forums for explaining the network latency problems and their inability to solved.

 

There is a lot of misinterpretation and lumping together of multiple problems going on here. I'm just trying to help people understand what's actually happening.

 

Since I already know you'll mention the damage landing before the grenade etc... thats not the crux of the problem. Those are details (like your previous rebuttal to another poster)

 

The issue is the grenade, ability is simply not being fired until the bolts animation is finished. The Cast-Bar completes (good) --> next ability does not happen (even though GCD is done too)... Why? because i'm still busy shooting (animating) the ability that was completed .5 seconds ago.

 

 

Its a very simple to understand issue, so simple its a feeling to most people perceiving it. Don't claim its just "that ability" (Bug), everything else is fine. However, it is a whole slew of mechanical problems and design decisions that have lead to this problem. It is more than just the video I linked, that is merely one issue.... but easier to understand.

 

Once again, your understanding of this very broad and big subject is not complete. Please re-examine and re-evaluate your position. It should not be offensive to acknowledge that ones understanding of a subject is not complete.

 

If it helps, consider Ability Delay as "Quantum Physics"... no-one is ashamed to admit they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to this field. Please don't post that 0.0 fixes it or that everything is fine etc etc.

[Khoranth]

So

 

If im standing there, not using any ability

 

I click my ability to use it

 

0.5 seconds go by - nothing happens

1.0 seconds go by - nothing happens

1.5 seconds go by - nothing happens

2.0 seconds go by - my ability activates

 

Thats working as intended?

58 ms ping

 

I see the flash on my hotbar as I press the 1,2, or whatever key to use the ability

 

Hell, I can sit there and hit the ability key 5-6 times before the ability actually goes off if im quick. It makes no difference though.

 

Note at the beginning, I said "Standing there doing nothing" Which means im not trying to use an ability off of the GCD of another ability.

 

There IS an ability delay bug. You dont have it. Awesome. Why are you here when you could be playing without this issue affecting you? Im here because it IS affecting my gameplay. Clearly one of us is full of nonsense.

 

I am telling you what bioware said. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Ibjelis]

What I dont understand is that there are still people that argues is there problem with responsivnes of character.

 

Are they blinde? Your character responsivnes is at best at 50%, try shadowstrike (the one that need to be done from behinde of enemy) and see how it wont fire 3 or 4 times and then mob/player sudenly apear on some diferent location

 

The combat is not fluid, in pvp especialy if theres more than 3 people noone can know whats going on who taunt who and who guard who not to mention that there is no combat log so that later you could see what the hell actually hapen to you.

 

Horible and frustrating combat mechanics, when you press a buton its more of a lotery than anything

[Zeetofox]

it is in this thread, you want a ss of this thread? Just go read it and find it yourself, or your response didn't happen.

 

no i want ss nao