Balance shadows are not really just melee, they are something of a hybrid. I've only seen Ashara use it point blank, so it looked like a projectile-less disturbance or force push type animation to me. If indeed it is the clone of disturbance, it would need some alteration in appearance...or just remove the projectile and leave the impact effect, like shock. That was what I was going for in my suggestion, anyway. Also, it is instant, there is no cast time like with disturbance, at least not one that I can discern on Ashara, so that makes it different as well...although disturbance can proc as instant, so maybe it is that instant version....hard to tell.

How diplomatic do you think a consular is throwing junk and rocks at people? roflmao Yes, Happy Memorial Day to you as well. Now a couple of things. First...this proposal is for alternate animations...animation reskins of project and throw. NO ONE is talking about removing the abilities and putting ABILITIES in the cartel shop. This is simply a proposal to allow players to purchase RESKINS for the ANIMATIONS of the ABILITIES. Like kick the huttball. If you don't buy "kick the huttball", you still have the exact same ability you have always had, throw the huttball, which functionally does the same thing. You just don't have the alternate animation for the ability. This allows two things to happen....1) people that like the current animations keep them, and nothing changes for them. 2) People that don't like them, as has been voiced by countless players in thread after thread after thread about these animations since they were first rolled out in beta, have an option to buy alternate appearances for them. Functionally nothing changes. This is already happening in this game since they mirrored the classes anyway....pebblestorm is just a reskinned force lightning. They do the same things... Please, please read a proposal before you comment on it...so read above. This doesn't take anything away from anyone...this proposal is simply for alternate SKINS for existing abilities. Its APPEARANCE ONLY. Just like the "kick the huttball" animation. Since when do we settle for a jedi force user class that throws things at people like we saw sith do, over and over, in six movies. EVERY single Sith threw things at targets (even Maul threw a piece of junk at a door panel). In fact, Sith threw junk more than anything else, even more than lightning. Picking up a bunch of junk and throwing it at people is a classic, aggressive move. Think about that...think about how it is NOT something we see jedi do a lot of, yet junk and rocks form the basis for the skills of the class in this game...and their legacy skill. Then think about how poorly the animations are done, with magically conjuring junk up from the ground, or pebbles out of nowhere, oftentimes when you are in a place where THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE....like pulling up rocks and junk from a starship deck. Even if it WAS a jedi signature move, which it isn't, the way the animations appear in this game are logically laughable.... I have been playing star wars games since they have been making them, and THE ONLY time I have seen junk throwing in them was as A DARKSIDE POWER. There is a reason for that...and needing to mirror the classes to save time and effort in this game does not excuse having jedi throw junk like sith.

The tk tree has access to better animations...but those skills all have activation timers unless proc'd. Furthermore shadows are stuck with the rocks and junk, they have no access to the TK tree animations. The signature skills for the class are project and throw. You get them without spending skill points. They are basic CONSULAR SKILLS, made fundamental to the class. They are the first two ranged skills the ranged class gets, and are impacted by many many talents in different builds. They are the hallmark animations of the class and, argue with it all you want, junk throwing is the signature of jedi force users in this game, to include their legacy skill. That is completely inappropriate. But even if you love the craptastic junk, this proposal lets you keep them and see no change in your play. But for players that find them utterly ridiculous, for good reason, this would give them the option to BUY something else, appearance wise. Hope you have a great weekend. /cheers

You have to be kidding me. Project storm is about the only thing more stupid than project...and that video highlights it. How can you get more goofy than pulling up one magical piece of junk or rock up from nowhere, especially in a starship??? Pull up an endless supply of them, rapid fire. You would have to work hard to come up with something more idiotic. Plus the only chronic junk throwers ARE SITH. It isn't even a classic jedi move. In six movies, we see over and over and over that SITH are the ones that throw junk as an attack. In fact, sith use junk throwing MORE than anything else. And you want to parse words? Ok Windu defended against it by reflecting it, partially at least, but he needed the lightsaber to do it. Hence my point, which stays unchanged. If you like the junk and rocks, with optional skins, you get to keep them. No matter how stupid and ridiculous and removed from actual jedi moves they are.

To bolster your argument a bit... Most handgun rounds, your 9mm, etc. are low velocity rounds...they travel from around 900 fps up to 1300-1400 for .357 magnums...these rounds just "poke holes" and they are traveling much faster than anything we see jedi junk toss in this game. MUCH faster, because we can see the junk. These rounds are also easily stopped by our body armor - with OUR technology. Star Wars tech should have NO trouble handling them. Now, as far as the "how do you know they aren't traveling any faster?" argument....well for 1) we can see them and 2) there ARE effects in the game, like BHs rail shot, that show hypervelocity off...and the pebbles clearly don't have it OR APPEAR to have it. WEAK. Now your rifle rounds are high velocity rounds, for example a 5.56mm round (M-16, M-4) are comparatively small bullets but travel at 3000 fps. These rounds are MUCH more deadly because at that speed they don't just poke holes...they create secondary wound channels via hydrostatic shock...essentially since our tissue is mostly water, the pressure waves the bullet imparts to the tissue cause it to "jellify"....We have armor that will stop these rounds, but it is thicker and bulkier. Star Wars tech should still be able to handle them, since we have personal body armor that can handle them....these rounds are far and away more impressive than ANY rock, junk, or pebbles that jedi throw...and this is OUR tech, not star wars tech.... Again, this is WHY they are weak and why they fail. Sure stoning people can be deadly...if you have stones handy...but in a fight, compared to guns, rockets, flame throwers, lasers, hypervelocity projectiles, plasma grenades, autocannons, etc, THEY ARE A COMPLETE AND TOTAL JOKE. They are a joke by todays weaponry standards. For the most iconic hero class in all of sci fi, they are beyond ridiculous. This is why I have lobbied for force push based effects, that essentially have jedi use the force to create pressure differentials, like bombs create. Not only is the concept of pushing someone back or away from you inherently defensive, essentially jedi would be bringing bomb blast type power to the fight instead of rocks and pebbles....and they wouldn't have to magically conjure the junk up out of the ground to do it....I know which one I would rather have...ever seen the videos of B-52's carpet bombing...pebbles are all that's left....lol, sense the irony? See what I did there? lol

Look nala, we have hashed this through, and I know you are a lawyer, but this case is closed. I know the pebbles aren't moving that fast because I can see them...contrast this with something like the BH rail shot, where you see the hypersonic air disturbance left behind....THAT is power. Now as far as rocks and junk being powerful...we have seen most force users can deflect them or shield from them, and when the sith are junk throwing against jedi, they typically have to go to lightsabers or lightning, because the junk just doesn't get it done against another force user...the same is NOT true for lightning (even masters, like Mace Windu and Obi Wan needed a lightsaber to defend against lightning). Also, in a game where people have high tech armor, throwing rocks or pebbles at the speed of about a baseball isn't going to do much damage. Again, since I can see them, they ARE traveling at subsonic speeds. I know a fair amount about ballistics, and those speeds are NOT impressive in a game where everyone else has rockets, flame throwers, autocannons, blasters, bombs, orbital strikes, etc...jedi, perhaps the MOST ICONIC, RECOGNIZED, BELOVED hero class in all of sci fi....gets rocks...pebbles....junk....it is pathetic. Again, if you don't understand that, just accept that lore matters, and jedi look and feel matters a great deal in this IP to ALOT of people.

Well my friend, if you don't understand it at this point, it is because you CHOOSE not to...you can watch the movies, go back and play the other jedi based games, including the kotors, and see why junk, rock and pebble throwing just do not cut it. Or even absent all that, you should be able to see in THIS game how poorly they are done and snicker every time you pull up a rock out of a starship deck. But in the end, perhaps you don't have to understand it...you just have to accept that for a non-trivial number of people, the junk and pebbles are not acceptable - just like I had to accept that I needed to come up with a proposal that would allow people to keep the junk and pebbles since some like it.... At least they finally answered the assassin questions, so perhaps in a week or so....until then, /cheers.

EJ isn't my personal favorite either, but it is a viable choice. To answer your other questions... 1) Pricing is up to EAWare, they would have to hit a sweet spot. I have thousands of cartel coins in my accounts, sitting unused. So meh, its not like they don't have experience pricing with weapon skins and alternate animations already, anyway. This will work itself out. 2) Consulars are in a unique position because their hallmark animations, project and throw, are so terrible and problematic for jedi - indeed the jedi hallmark skills are seen used by Sith in the ultimate lore of the movies, NOT jedi...Inqs do not need something different with the same urgency or severity. Lightning works fine for them. 3) Yes, other classes could get alternate ani's as well, over time. THAT is part of the beauty of the proposal. EVERYTHING IS OPTIONAL. For players that want something different and are willing to pay for it, they get it, and EAWAre makes more money in the process, as they offer a few new anis with roll outs for different classes over time. Its win-win. Players get more choice, EAWare gets more money.

You aren't alone there...but with the story limitations and VO limitations, etc. etc. this game will never see a new class.

I don't see how this would work as a channeled ability...now, as a replacement or substitute animation for Project, a discrete ability, I think it would work very well, and I have suggested the following in my alternate animations thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365 Saber Dance: Replace project with a saber throw on steroids...motion blurred and bad ***....consulars are the ones that can throw things and yet they can’t throw one of the MOST deadly things in the universe, that happens to ALREADY be in THEIR HAND - their lightsaber???? People have long complained that cons/sages use their saber almost NONE. Well here is a chance to change that.... That makes sense...also, a double-bladed throw for shadows would rock. Also, if the devs were worried about distinguishing it from other saber throws, again, this should be more refined....so let them throw the hilt and ignite the blade at impact, or some other such affect of being able to remotely ignite the blade. Would look awesome and distinguish it from other throws. We saw Yoda impale a clone with his saber in ROTS, so imagine a saber throw where the consular ignites the blade as it reaches the target and impales the target with it, then the con pulls the saber back to his hand....nice concept, as lore based as it gets. In fact, it is in this game already, again, as a cut scene in the Esseles, except it is done by the sith end boss that throws and chokes the trooper up against a wall before he throws the saber, ignites it as it strikes the trooper to impale him, then yanks it back...so subtract the choking and sith face paint, and you get the idea.

Meh, I understand your point, but considering how this game has already not just bent it, but twisted it like a pretzel, I am ok with it....look at it this way....if someone can die from Force Stasis, yes, S-T-A-S-I-S, (the mirror of Force Choke), I don't think dying or being damaged in the game from having your strength and willpower taken is that disturbing or "shocking"...pun intended...lol.

Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone. Hopefully, the devs will act on this and take advantage of a very easy way to utilize elements that are already in game, to make EAWare some more money where customers are more than willing to spend it.

Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone...updated the original post with a few more ideas. This topic has come up over and over and over and over....for one simple reason....the signature skills of the force using jedi in this game simply DO NOT meet expectations for a lot of star wars fans. PERIOD. It has always been that way, ever since they saw the light of day in beta. EAWare could basically print their own money with this...will be interesting to see what they say in response to Sage Question #3.

Yes, thank you Nala for stepping up for an almost thankless job...lol. Consensus building and word-smithing under these forum conditions is a version of cat-herding. Well done. May the answers we receive have the same level of thought and effort put into them.

Title pretty much says it all....lol.

Perhaps, but I bet someone with the right tools could go into the game files right now, find the shock and project animation files, copy shock ani,, rename it, and replace the project ani and it would work fine...Not that I am suggesting client side modding, but instead I am commenting on the nature of the game and its technical limitations. I bet there is even a different ani for the shock or project double hit (talent upheaval) and you could switch those out, as well. All the animations in the game are just files. With names. That are called by other parts of the engine. I bet the game designers could do this in a matter of seconds. So what is the difference in replacing it with the already in the game Force Burst ani? Probably VERY VERY LITTLE. So I find it incredibly unbelievable given the nature of this game and how animations are kept in separate files and called by the engine, and given how the game was built with identical skills having different animations slapped on top of them, to not make this work easily. If not, then it won't be the first time it has appeared that the devs know little about their own game and how it plays...lol. Of course the other piece of the puzzle is simple. Money. We aren't asking for them to do this outside of the cartel market, where they would see an immediate return on any effort they put into providing their customers what they wanted.

Link? The game was built by slapping different animations on top of functionally identical skills...so it would be fascinating to hear what technical problems they think they would have, since the game was built to do what they would be claiming they cant do...or haven't already done with kick the huttball, and alternate out of combat regens...

Really? Unless the sage is bubbled, or guarded, or a tank has hit you with a taunt, or an AOE taunt, or they have some other protection like scrambling field, etc. There are so many possible mitigations they are hard to keep track of...Of course assuming you aren't cc'd or knocked back when you leap in, etc. Want to try again? Or just be quiet in humiliated recognition of your ignorance to the obvious? Leaping into a group and smashing for 10k+ on multiple targets was the RARE exception, far from the rule or the norm and took an exceptionally poor group of players to pull it off on. In fact it is very simple...if you were dealing with a group of skilled players, clumped together, they would have near endless options to mitigate your damage. 10k+ was VERY far from the norm, unless you listen to the whiners and the baddies.

Rage is not viable. There is no reason, whatsoever to use it over combat/carnage. But please, lets not get off track about it here, I apologize for bringing it up.

lol, try life as a mara, out of three trees, one of them is viable for pvp now. One tree.

10k+ smashes, or at least their prevalence, were a myth propagated by sux whiner players.... First, if you group like lemmings there should be a penalty. If you are grouping up in a small area for heals benefits, or protection, then THERE SHOULD BE AN AOE price to pay for that...second, when you look at all the damage mitigators out there, from bubbles, to protection, to taunts, to aoe damage talent reductions, AGAIN, the 10k+ smash almost NEVER, EVER happened, and if it did the noobs deserved it. On top of all that, you have all the knockbacks and stuns, and mez's, and every other tactic that real players used to mitigate the effectiveness of melee....and if you are grouped on top of each other, odds are any given player in that group has one of more off cooldown...

Excellent points. How Rage is gonna do anything now but sux is a complete and total mystery. That dev statement shows the same level of incompetence and stupidity that brought us the 2.7 changes in the first place. You cannot triple nerf smash, and ruin the worth of about 8 skill points in the tree, a tree that is BUILT AROUND ONE SKILL, smash, and not completely ruin it and invalidate the design of the entire tree. Furthermore, setting the INCREDIBLY STUPID precedent of having a WHOLE TREE work completely differently in PvE versus PvP is DAZZLINGLY INCOMPETENT design. The developers in this game, through all the firings, down sizings, and iterations, HAVE NEVER shown that they understood melee in this game or its inherent difficulties. Too harsh? Think about this: Right now, there is ONE, and ONLY ONE viable pvp build for mara/sents, and that is carnage/combat. We have THREE TREES, yet the devs have left us with ONE viable build. Forget hybrids. ONE VIABLE PVP BUILD. I'm not sure what is worse...that they are too ignorant of their own game to figure that out, or that they were ignorant enough to create the mess in the first place....

You can read the proposal for yourself: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365 Or for the short explanation, the idea is that the alternate animations would be optional, purchased with cartel coins. So people that like the junk, rocks, and pebbles get to keep them. I have no idea what you mean by smoother, you must have a very interesting definition for the word...there is nothing "smooth" about rocks, junk and pebbles...

Its nice to see you come full circle. I knew, if you thought about it, you would see reason...rofl.... Why not make it question #1? Personally, I loved this quote earlier in the thread, it still makes me chuckle...

Yep, any reasonable person who stayed awake during the films would agree...lol.