More of your amazing stephen hawking logic, eh? BTW still waiting on answers to my questions. I won't hold my breath.

I'd say, in this case, you could call the ones who remained newbs instead of noobs. The noobs are the ones that lol'd and left. Always nice to see people willing to listen and learn, and even nicer when someone has the patience to guide them.

You're hopeless. Quick copy/paste from Dulfy's TFB guide: After a few lighting attacks, you will see the message – Heirad Begins to Cast Surging Chain! Ciphas will hop over and casts Empowered Barrier on Heirad to make him immune to damage. You now must damage Ciphas so break his shield bubble and the interrupt his Empowered Barrier ability. The symbol for his shield bubble is the same as the sorc/sage bubble. Surging Chain hits for 2.5-3.5k. Please tell me how that's different from the instructions given by any ops leader. You lose.

Apologies in advance for length / derail. Again, you ---cannot--- relate standing in stupid to reading a guide. They are completely separate. You are basically saying that someone who has learned to avoid circles will instead stand IN circles AS A RESULT OF READING DULFY. Wrong. If they are standing in stupid, a) they didn't see/got lazy or b) had their first lesson about standing in stupid. There is no c) Dulfy didn't say so. No, no and no. Oh, I don't know, damage? KDY has red/blue/yellow circles, normal FPs have red/blue/purple, spit is green, lair of the eyeless circles were green, other ops have orange circles. So according to you, people should have learned to stay out of circles. What makes doom circles any different? Wat... Did you really just give a lesson on rotating cameras? And you can't honestly be telling me that during your first time at TFB, with no knowledge of any mechanics, you turned your camera around away from the boss (while maintaining dps/heals) and watched another player start the channel and break it. Please. You say that now because you know how it works, but during your first run you wouldn't even know to look for that player's channel bar. Even if you did, how did they know how to do it? Probably a guide or by someone who read the guide. Again, you are most likely following people that have read a guide at some point. Dulfy and others figure it out on PTS, write the guide, and people use the guide so that they don't spend a long time figuring stuff out and dying repeatedly. In fact, when someone is giving out instructions, they most likely have read the guide at some point, or been told by someone who has read the guide. I hate to say it, but directly or indirectly, you have followed the guide. You still have yet to explain all the other instances where you claim common sense and monkey see/do (and no monkey see) can get you through it easily. I'll give you another one: Oasis City infiltration. How does one know that players aren't allowed to help another team in progress? Without previous instructions, that's a guaranteed wipe.

Seriously? All your examples are mistakes that people make REGARDLESS IF THEY KNOW THE MECHANICS OR READ A GUIDE. You're ridiculously implying that reading guides is the CAUSE of their mistakes. It's like you see someone stand in an inferno and think, "he only stood there cuz he read Dulfy. If he had just not read it, he'd be fine". Uh WRONG. Yes, ok, it's obviously easy to use the common sense thing to explain damage telegraphs. HMM i'm standing in a big red circle and dying, maybe I should move. No, obviously, you don't need a guide for that. Obviously, obviously, obviously. But let's look at TFB or SnV. Do you immediately know, using your Stephen Hawking logic, that you need to walk through green circles to get rid of Doom? Do you know immediately know that Kel'sara, or even Sunder, will knock the crap out of you when they focus on you? Do you immediately know what the firebug is going to do to you, or that if the snipers aren't taken out they will deal massive damage? Do you immediately know to kill the single ad at Terror but avoid the multiple ones? Do you know, at Kephess, to click the tower when you have Nanites, and break the channel only when he's near? Do you know to get rid of Kephess's lightning thing by running into more lightning? No to all. You may LEARN after you DIE, but are you really insisting that everyone goes through that learning process in a 16 man raid? You can learn anything with enough deaths, but deaths are what people generally try to avoid. The time to experiment is not during an ops. And you say you learn by watching? How'd you know someone with nanites at a tower broke the channel? You're busying tanking/healing/dps. And what if you're the first in Olok's shop to get the credit token? How do you know to click on the screen? And if you do, Blue or Yellow? And what would you do in an ops you've never done? The leader says, "Has anyone not done this before" and you say, "Me, but don't tell me anything about the fights". You'd die at every fight. Oh, learn by watching others? How's that any different from reading a guide? Maybe THEY learned by reading a guide, so why'r you following them?

1. I can click all the consoles in starship first every time, usually before anyone else gets there. 2. If we're talking about a single or solo questing, or even playing with your friends, then yeah, I say figure it for yourself instead of always looking at a guide. BUT, when you have other people in your group who have possibly done it before, you don't want to hold them back just so you can figure it out. It's not a bad thing to want to read up on the fight so that you can actually contribute instead of running around in confusion. I've never heard of anyone actually getting angry at someone for reading a guide first. AND, i can't see a situation in which reading a guide would HINDER someone's performance. If you can figure it out on your own, great! But don't equate someone who reads guides to them being an idiot. 3. Your LI example doesn't have anything to do with reading guides or not.. that's just people standing in stupid and is a common problem that exists whether or not someone reads guides. Just because they read it doesn't mean they lose brain cells and forget how to do simple things.

Again with the guide hatred? I've leveled 2.5 toons in KDY, and I think I've seen 1 person say they're going to check Dulfy @ starship assembly. And if you know the right combo, why don't you just solve it yourself while they alt tab? It seems you are setting yourself up for frustration on purpose. And if the wrong combo is selected, it's THEIR fault for fail reading, because all of Dulfy's combos are correct. Come to think of it, even in ops I rarely see anyone mention dulfy. Like, maybe a handful of times. And her ops guides explain, first and foremost, the basics of each fight, rather than what HER group specifically did. When she does mention what HER group did, she says it's what THEY felt comfortable with doing, but other groups may do it differently. You are being very closed minded in this matter.

All this debate about HM DF (or any op really) being "easy" or not... everyone is right. I think the issue here is semantics. There are a number of variables in play here, and one cannot simply call it "easy" and be done with it. As with anything else, it's a learning process which becomes easier with repetition. A new group might be overwhelmed at first and claim that it's hard, but once they become familiar with the new mechanics, the increased pace, and can properly coordinate with each other, their likelihood of success will increase. Then they might realize that it wasn't actually that hard to begin with - they just needed practice. So, I don't think it's a matter of easy vs hard, but rather getting used to a fight until it becomes easier (and, I guess, more boring, as some have said). That being said, some fights are easier than others. Then, as Jeweldleah said, there’s the issue of having a competent group to run with consistently. You could be over geared and know the mechanics really well, but if you don’t have such a group to run with and are forced to do your HMs with unreliable random pugs, you’ll never get your loot. So, we have to look at exactly what we mean when we say easy or hard. Is it easy because you and your group were determined to get it, and ran it so many times that it became boring? I could see that. Is it easy for someone in a guild with no HM group to successfully clear with random pugs? Not so easy. Is it easy for a consistent group to clear when people make mistakes? No. So it all depends. Again, not doubting that you and many others find it easy to farm, and not trying to step on toes. Just saying that a little elaboration could clear things up.

Hmm I wonder if i get judged like that for driving around in my Orbital Lifter mount. Oh well I love it anyways.

It all depends. When I heal I let the tank choose the pace (with reason), as long as everyone is ready. But no one person should be the lone determiner of pace. Just wait for your team, let the tank engage, kill the mobs, and move on.

If the first tank really thought like that, I'm glad you guys kicked him. Bravo!

I've seen something else (not exactly related to your example) that I think might be my imagination. I've only seen it during KDY runs. We all know the players that HAVE to be the ones to click the shiny things. Even if someone is already channeling, or already heading in that direction, they will rocket boost/force speed their way over and do it first. It's.. annoying. So one time I encountered such a player, a sorc. No matter what, force speed in front of everyone to be first at everything.. even to wait for the rest of us. They did that to me several times as I was heading to click something, and each time I let out a sigh of frustration and did a 360 (haha jk 180). So I waited for a good moment when their force speed was out, and rocket boosted ahead of them, muahaha . The moment I passed them, they quit group. Sudden, coincidental RL aggro, or rage quit because they weren't first? I like to think the latter, but it could just be my imagination.

On a funnier note, my favorite part of SnV: @ Olok "Whoever gets the token, click the BLUE icon" someone clicks a gold "Ok, next person click the RED icon" someone clicks a gold

SnV SM 16 Had a troublesome player, whom I hoped I’d never see again. Saw them in a TFB before as a tank, where he played a big role in ruining the Kephess fight, then blamed and insulted everyone else. Most of the raid was yelling at him. This raid was exactly the same, except he was a DPS. - Pulled before tank - Chain pulled mobs while people were dead, preventing rez - Complained about waiting for boss explanations - Complained about the raid taking too long (1 shot all except a wipe in Oasis City) After he got into voice, he constantly made subtle, condescending remarks about the guild and the raid: - said, “are you sure you want me in voice? I might be saying things that you don’t want to hear” (nothing was wrong with the run, it was a standard and decent SM run) - at one point said, "i'm running the raid" - when OT died to Sunder, said, “OT, watch what I do, maybe you can learn something” (nothing wrong with watching/learning, but an insulting way to say it) At the end, offered his “criticism” to the guild and their raid: - “raid would go better without people horsing around” (nobody was horsing around) - “raid would go better with more communication” (all boss fights were explained. Ready checks were done. Everything was fine) - talked about his WoW experience for a good minute (literally 60 seconds), then said, "not trying to toot my own horn" - talked about how he wasn't scared of being blunt and saying the hard truth (Anyone, especially on the internet, can say the hard truth. This doesn't make him brave or whatever it is he thinks he's being. The important thing is to know WHEN to open your mouth and when to keep it shut) The frustrating thing was: the raid leader LET him do all those things. Before he got into voice we were all complaining about him, and had we warned him to not pull ahead or we kick. Almost the entire raid was complaining about him and arguing with him. And he constantly insulted everyone and made everything difficult. Yet the raid leader did nothing. He said nothing to defend the guild, the raid, or anything. No offense to him of course, he seemed like a good person. But, darnit, WHY DID HE LET HIM STAY. I’ll admit, I didn't say anything either. Didn't say anything in chat because he was on ignore since that TFB (and, honestly, everyone else was saying everything already). Didn't say anything in voice because.. well because I really didn't want to spend my night arguing with someone like that. No amount of logic or reasoning would ever convince him that he’s wrong. And maybe he knows he's wrong, but just doesn't care. Bad people exist everywhere. The rest of us should do our best to squelch this behavior or remove it from the picture (ie the raid group). If we don't, it's just.. disappointing.

Hehe

Of course there's a need. There are troublesome and disrespectful players all over, and there's no need to be grouped with them if you can help it. Being new / inexperienced is OK, as long as they listen and take advice when given. When they ignore everyone and maintain their bad playing, I ignore.

Your posts are so colorful Edit: Also, is there a stacking debuff in SM? I've played all roles here multiple times and I've never worried about stacks. Never done HM, but Dulfy says there are no stacks in SM.

It's a funny thing when you realize you've been unintentionally making it more difficult for people to be effective. Like moving out of a healer's line of sight. Before I made my healer I would do this as dps ,and I'd think, 'man where are my heals! let's go, healer!" (Ok, I still do it now sometimes, except now I think, "oh crap I went too far.") Then when I played a healer I was like, 'you fool, stop moving away from me i'm trying to heal you! Oh sh--, I've been doing that this whole time." I think I did the same with backstabby dps too when I started tanking.

Got a quick one. TFB 16 SM, full pug. People weren't taking it seriously, which kinda bothered me, but we were doing fine (until Kephess), and it was SM, so wasn't worried too much. Did have a funny moment at Heirad, Ciphas, and Kel'sara. Dps weren't switching targets properly, so I called them out in chat. Me: target Player: wal-mart! Player: costco! Me: fire Player: earth! Player: wind! Rgh silly people . Gave me a chuckle.

Wait, are you really complaining about getting hit by a weak mob? It's WEAK. As in, the healer could probably kill it. And you are a damage dealer. Lotsa damage + weakling robot = quickest pile of scrap metal this side of Tatooine. Also, since it's impractical to debate every possible scenario, I was simply stating some general rules that seem acceptable by the community. 1. Tank should do his best to gather up all mobs. If can't get all, at least get strongest and those around it. 2. Anything else should be picked up by dps, otherwise they will attack heals. In your original story, if it really was 2 silvers that the tank couldn't hold, then yes he wasn't taking properly. But his statement about dps getting "ads" (assuming he meant weaks/extras/strays) isn't unreasonable. If he held on to the 2 silvers and a few weaks fought the dps, that is perfectly fine. in any case: as a dps, it is absurd to think you should not take damage. It's going to happen, even when the tank is doing his job properly. And regarding guard (heh), if the dps weren't stealing threat FROM the tank, the dps did not need to be guarded. Same goes for the healer. A lot of healers get one tiny scratch and freak out, saying, "guard me or I leave". Keep in mind it's not about the fact that someone is getting hit, but rather WHY they are getting hit. -Is healer getting hit by a mob that nobody else touched? Guard won't help that. -Is dps getting hit because he's fighting a weak to save the healer? As long as the tank holds the important mobs, be a helpful team member and fight the weak. -Is dps stealing aggro from the tank during a boss fight and taking massive damage from the boss? Guard needed.

No, it's not always the tank's fault. DPS priority exists because sometimes the tank cannot be in all places at once. If the tank is holding the attention of 2 silvers, and 1 weak is on the other side of the room hitting the healer, it's the dps's fault for not getting that weak. Think about what you've said here. If the dps are ""ignoring"" weak mobs, it is clearly the dps's fault. Which means the dps should go get that mob, not the tank. The tank can try, sure. But if we are assigning blame, it would fall on dps. It's not a matter of the healer getting aggro FROM the tank. If the mob goes unhit, nobody has aggro on it. The healer then becomes the sole aggroer of that mob or mobs. A dps ignoring kill priority will not necessarily take more damage. If they attack the gold that the tank is on, for instance, they will not take more damage (but the healer will get hit). A dps WILL take damage from following kill priority if the tank is not able to get that weak, but that should be easily handled by them. Also, you have the healer (damage free, by the way, because of proper kill order), who can heal the tiny damage from the weak. It's a joint effort by the team to protect the healer. Even the healer (line of sight to avoid death until someone realizes, for example. Don't stand there and blame people for dying when you could have easily positioned yourself behind a box and still be in healing range)

-_- ...and besides looking at the actual toon. Was kinda implied, seeing as there's probably sabers and lasers and explosions and other fx all around. And not to mention the healer's attention is focused on his feet and the health bars, and a boss is usually between the tank and the rest of the party blocking the view.

I think there are certain distinctions, but it's all relative. Is there a way to know this w/o checking the buff or being told so? If someone needs to pop this, the fight is obviously pretty hectic, and the healers are playing whack-a-mole with health bars. And if a sorc doens't have a jug or doesn't know what the buff icon looks like, can you really blame them? And even if they did, the buff icons by default are small, and usually only the debuff scale is enlarged. So when you pop enraged defense and think, "no idiot sorc better bleeping bubble me", just keep that in mind. They're just guides, and they do have helpful information. I've never been in an op where someone is insulted for not knowing the tactics. Most guilds that run ops will make sure to explain them beforehand, because nobody wants a wipe. The frustration comes when people pretend to know but really don't, or are told but don't listen, or just straight up derp a lot. She also does take suggestions or corrections from other people. And some of those guides aren't written by her. When I switched to Vengeance I looked up the basic rotation, but it's not like I memorized that long order of skills. It's sometimes helpful to see what other people do, and then adjust that to your own taste. Doesn't make someone a noob for doing so. You're on the right track here. It goes without saying that a single experienced player has a greater chance of dying when grouped with 3 or 7 or 15 other incompetent players. And just because you've done Ludicrous Dread Palace doesn't mean you won't die In a SM op. I was in a HM TFB on Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel'sara, and people still needed to be told when to switch between C and H. But a great player being dragged down by lesser players is still a great player. His level of skill doesn't change. I think being elite is just a combination of experience + intuition. The really good players I see always seem to know what is happening at all times (the group, the boss, the environment), and can quickly adapt to many different or new situations that aren't explicitly stated in guides from Dulfy or any other. And some people just get it more than others.

-_- All I said was "sin tank in lightning charge". I could have said "sin gobble in goober gib". That wasn't my point. My point was about people in a group who seem to be unaware of the existence of the chatbox or refuse to respond to others for whatever reason. And, if you must know, his first comment after the starting convo was, "let me lead i'm tank". He was in lightning charge.

I wonder about these people that don't seem to respond to chat prompts by team members. Was in a KDY where 3 of us were all trying to communicate with this sin tank in lightning charge. It got to the point where we started saying stuff like, "why isn't he responding" and "i wonder if he can read". He said 3 comments the entire time: one at the start, one after the first round, and one right before the boss, none of which were any kind of response to the rest of us. Strange.