No offense taken. You will recall that in our prior discussion, I suggested that a**hattery is not exclusive to competitive PvP. True story: was running Foundry in HM last weekend to grab an HK-51 part. After we defeated Revan, one of my group mates refused to join the final cutscene because someone else had won the roll for a piece of gear he wanted. I got tired of waiting out the chat argument after about 10 minutes (wanted to get back to pvp) so I dropped out of the flashpoint without the final reward. Could some pvpers do a better job demonstrating good sportsmanship and representing their interests? Without a doubt. Could causal pvpers do a better job understanding what motivates PvP players. Without a doubt. Let me observe that I don't see a lot of PvP players jumping onto PvE focused forums and verbally abusing endgame PvE specialists. However, this forum seems to be a magnet for anyone who seems to have an axe to grind with PvP player behavior.

helpful...really helpful EDIT: would it be elitist if i informed you that you misspelled the word "elitist"?

Ok, last night in Civil War. We grab snow early, and I'm left in solo coverage. Then, by some amazing stroke of luck, we grab grass. We've got both sides within the first minute, which is obviously a delicate defensive position. The ops lead and I are typing like mad over chat "split and defend....SPLIT AND DEFEND". You already see where this is headed--I watch all of the cute purple icons on my map (save myself and a lone defender--the Ops Lead--on grass) peel off and head for a smashfest at mid. A minute later, we were down all three turrets. Seems like the only time some people want to defend is when the WZ is obviously lost, and then only because they're hoping to pick up a few defender commendations for standing around.

Per my suggestion in this post, if we all moved our primaries to the same server, it would be EASY for BW to disable ranked on other servers and to make ranked-specific customizations to the WZ PvP server (e.g., dump the bolster). It could even be part of toon PvP evolution...once you've skilled / leveled up your toon and are ready for ranked, you transfer your toon. If you only ever want to be a regstarz, then feel free to continue hanging out on your current server. I'd also be willing to wager that there'd be a lot of whining about "premades", etc., in unranked, as the abusers (if there are any) would get drummed off the server.

Here's a random thought...I was too lazy to do a search to see if anyone has discussed it previously, so apologies if I'm rehashing history. Now that we have an actual season starting, we could really have an impact on queue length and <solo> team balance if those of us interested in Ranked PvP all transfered our primaries into a common server. If we made enough noise, BW might (*might*) even consider setting aside a server for WZ PvP. Otherwise, we all just choose a server and make the move. Most PvP guilds would have enough members move to form a new chapter. Those of us hanging in PvE guilds could form new ones or join the new chapters of existing. It seems like an such an obvious idea that I'm almost embarrassed to suggest it. But, with free character transfer, there's no reason why it wouldn't work. EDIT: I'm not sure if toon's legacy buffs transfer. If they do, we could implement an "honor rule" that you only transfer your primary. If they don't, then the playing field is level anyway. EDIT: In honor of knownastherat, we could call the new server "Sparta". EDIT: Going forward, BW could disable ranked PvP on all servers except "Sparta". Also, they could undo some PvP stupidity, like "bolster" if there was a WZ PvP focused server on which to make the change.

My guess...they dropped in some dummy toons to make the boards look all pretty, until they have some actual results to crunch. Otherwise, people would have been posting about the boards being broken.

'tho you gotta admit, 'Wa'amublance' is a pretty cool toon name.

After the initial feedback, I updated the Crouch macro hotkeyed on my mouse to include a small backwards movement prior to the Chrouch cast. That way I can use the same hotkey to crouch or reset dampers and pickup my snapshot. It has worked really well in practice.

See my response to "ghostee"^^^. It's interesting that the section of OP that you quote makes absolutely no reference to skill level. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's pretty clear that he's talking about having a competitive focus and a willingness to do the things necessary to compete. It's easier to have a rational discussion if all parties avoid jumping to conclusions.

I've got to go with cash on this one. I think this has actually been a pretty balanced discussion about why players that are viewed as highly committed to improving at PvP are viewed negatively. As with cash, I have admitted multiple times in other threads that I still consider myself to be a fairly medicore Sniper, and am still working to learn the trade. Not sure what caused you to fire the Slam-O-Gram 9000, but it certainly wasn't based on the contents of this thread. And, <your post> actually does a pretty fair job pointing out what dedicated PvPers are up against. EDIT: In case it's unclear, it's known as "jumping to conclusions".

I have to say that I've had the opportunity to play this group composition twice, and each time it was f'ing amazing. Both times, the other team was left at the bottom of a smoking crater. When I saw our team comp the first time I played it, my first thought was "we are SO screwed", but after the first round I knew we were onto something. If I were building a team for ranked, I'd seriously consider this approach--at least until someone figures out countermeasures or it gets class nerfed.

Not making any comments on the way you play the class, but 4v4 has definitely broken my "lazy sniper" habit. Even with a MM spec, you CANNOT play arenas as a fixed turret. You've got to learn to move, pick your cover spots on the fly, and thinking about positioning in relation to (aka "behind") your teammates. Not something you generally have to think about much in Civil War, where you just hit the mid balcony and DPS away.

A fair point. The challenge is that the "I'm interested in getting better at this, I just don't want to be a be a PvP star" crowd is smallish and/or not so vocal. My observation is that the "PvP haterz" are people who either truly think PvE is somehow superior; or, they've tried PvP and had their "awesome gamer" self-identity challenged.

Self-quoting from another recent thread: I've been wondering on this same issue recently. I think a big part of the challenge in a "mixed use" gaming environment (i.e., PvP and PvE) is that you have a significant majority of the population that thinks of PvP as an in-game "hobby". They expect PvP to be a fun outlet from the tedium of running the same dailies for the 1000th time, or hitting on a flashpoint queue that sends them to CZ-198 yet again. When they jump into a WZ expecting to hero it out, it comes as a huge shock when they find themselves instead on the respawn treadmill. In that situation, cognitive dissonance tells you that the problem isn't you, because you are awesome. Instead, the problem is external to you. Hence the ongoing complaints about premades, bolster/augmentation, class imbalance, queue matchmaking, etc. This also results in the marginalization of players who work to be successful at PvP (conveniently a minority population). Existing stereotypes (e.g., slacker gamers) only serve to reinforce their cognitive dissonance. I don't know if there is any good answer. It does remind me of my favorite quote from "The Incredibles": "if everyone is special, then no-one is."

^^^This. You wouldn't introduce cross-server only for Ranked. By having cross-server for unranked as well, you improve the overall health of PvP in SWTOR. Better, more consistent matchmaking, improved queue cycle times, exposure to a wider variety of play styles and tactics, would result in a much better "farm league" to feed the majors.

The OP on this thread does a good job of explaining when / where purple PvE 53s/54s are better for you than PvP gear. Basically, expertise doesn't come into play until you have the PvP set bonus.

Fair enough. When Partisan gear got downgraded with 2.4, I hung onto most of the pieces to use as shells since it's a pretty good look for my sniper.

I know you've probably thought of this, so apologies in advance. But, please be sure you're attaching your MK-9s to orange shells and moving your Obroan parts into them. The per setpiece cost of ripping components and moving them is dramatically cheaper than buying and installing MK-9s in new gear. Also, IMO the Obroan gear is butt-ugly.

Ok, so you got me to chuckle on a Monday morning, and I hadn't even finished my coffee. Back when I was scrounging for credits to buy augs, I was also feeling a bit embarrassed with my lvl55 sniper still riding around on the pink speeder they sell in the cartel market. Since I didn't want to spend credits on a better one, I spent a week digging up parts in the Outlaw's Den (between PvP matches) to build one. What was funny is that during that time, I dug up FOUR DREADSEED HELMETS. Now, I actually happen to like the Dreadseed designs, but I don't need four of the things (esp. since they bind to legacy). What was aggravating was that they BIND ON PICKUP, so I couldn't sell them on GTN, and the game only pays you 30 credits for the thing. The other funny thing about the entire effort is that I discovered that it's apparently uncool to attack someone in the Outlaw's Den. I've been griefed on several occasions for initiating a fight in a dedicated PvP area. And no, I'm not beating on lowbies (which IS uncool). These are other lvl55s who should be able to handle it.

BUMP I've been trying to figure this out myself, and this seems to be the most thorough, detailed explanation out there. Thanks for taking the time. I do have to say that, from my humble PoV, this is much too complicated a scoring system. It makes it exceedingly difficult for a team to determine where they're going to get the most value for effort at any point in time. It doesn't have to be as simple as Huttball, but everyone would benefit from removing some of the complexity so that it doesn't require video analysis and a discussion thread to sort it out.

So I guess another vent I currently have with PvP is the scoring voodoo in pylons. Seriously, it seems pretty arbitrary. Orb capture seems pretty meaningless. You don't seem to get any sort of lift for holding both pylons simultaneously. Kills are supposed to improve your score, but it's unclear what the calculation is. In addition, each pylon reset has a increasing bonus multiplier (x1, x2, x3). You would think this would help a team close the gap in later rounds if their first round was a loss, but I've never seen it work. All in all, it's completely unclear where I should be focusing effort when in order to maximize team score. I'm sure the post immediately below this one will be a link to a resource explaining the pylon scoring system. If so, thanks in advance! EDIT: Thought I'd do some self-service, and this is the best resource I've found on scoring. Obviously, I'm not the only person confused. It shouldn't take someone analyzing WZ video to sort this thing out.

Actually, I think you'd be surprised how much I understood, even if I don't have a 137 IQ.

I hear you on all counts. I got a kick out of levelling my sniper to 55, even tho I rushed thru it. From what I've heard from others, I hear it's one of the better storylines in SWTOR. My sentinel alt is the toon that I'm levelling (at a more reasonable pace) with my son. I think arenas are a great addition to PvP, and will continue to get better as people figure out how to play them. I started out HATING tatooine because the opportunities to find cover at distance are nil. Now, I'm actually starting to enjoy it more because it forced me to lose the "lazy sniper" habit (too much acting like a stationary turret) and learn how to move effectively. I do think it was a TERRIBLE decision on BW's part to drop 8v8 from the ranked queues. There should be variety on the ranked side, just like unranked, so careerists that happen to like the format have an option to unranked.

It's a good question. I'll give you my opinion, understanding that I am in no way claiming to be a SWTOR WZ tactical expert. I was going to start with the pithy "there are no bad tactics", but that's untrue. There are some things you might try that just will not work against a skilled opponent. However, for the most part, the right question to ask is whether the tactic fits the situation. "Feint South" seems to be a useful tactic in NC *right now* because pretty much everyone is still conditioned to grind at the Southern node. If you've got the right class mix, and your opponent does what they've always done (i.e., "Mass South"), you can be pretty confident of gaining the element of surprise and the victory. Eventually, smart players will catch onto the new tactic, and countertactics will be implemented. You make the best tactical choices you can to fit the situation, and hope for the best. This cat and mouse is exactly what fascinates me about PvP, and especially PvP in SWTOR. BW has done a pretty good job implementing a format where you benefit from making good tactical choices. EDIT: when i say "right class mix", this tactic works best if you've got an Operative with Infiltrate. You want to give the clear impression the bulk of your team is headed South, and your Operative was just slow to mask your move. Once Infiltrate is cast, a couple of players (2 tanks preferably) hit the Southern node hard while a 5-player team sprints past to the opposing side node (as usual, you're going to send a single player to take and hold your own side node). If all goes according to plan, you're 5v1 at the opposing side node. Once opposing side is taken, your tanks disengage from South to shore up your own side node. I prefer to keep 5 on the opposing side node instead of 4 and 4, because your opponents immediate reaction is most often going to be to reclaim their own side node. Like I said above, eventually smart players will catch on and devise countermeasures. The trick to all of this is to keep counting. You may or may not be able to hold both side nodes for the entire match, although I find it easier than holding a side and South (BW designed the side nodes with better perimeter defenses than South). If you see that you've got 6-7 opponents dropping onto their side node and it looks unlikely you'll hold, it's time to beat a strategic retreat and hit them at South. The biggest mistake n00bs make in objective-based WZs is not attacking in force. They'll dribble into a position one player at a time, kicking off a revolving door to the respawn. By the time they've arrived "in strength" at a specific node, they're generally too far behind in points to win the game. Even for a single-covered node, I want to send in at least three players (if the goal is to take it). This is because I expect that the minute they see us coming, they're going to be calling for reinforcements. I want to get the cover player ded and the node taken as quickly as possible, so my teammates can turn around and get into defensive positions. If we just need a distraction to pull opponents off another objective, I'd send in less. Anyway, hope this helps.

Changing the subject...players in Huttball who insist on throwing the ball to me (a sniper). For those of you who don't know, snipers play defense in huttball. We are not geared to move with the ball.