So how do you upgrade your gear then?

Oddly enough I find myself doing guild runs with my dps and GF runs with my tank. Many in the guild have a tank alt they want to try out / practice on but don't want to be rushed by everyone else. As a tank it's usually an insta-pop for flashpoints. What really annoys me, however, is the amount of effort I have to put in for even the slightest upgrade. my Tank is mostly 72, with a few 69 pieces (mostly for set bonus). To get an upgrade of 30 points in my defense budget I need to spend 500 ultimate commendations. (only counting shield, absorbtion and defense) I'm sure I could get a few more than 30 points by fiddling with the augments, but the point is, my slightly worse geared vanguard dps (2600 aim. 1350 - 1600 dps 850 bonus, unbuffed, unstimmed, mostly 72, some 69) gets a lot more bang for the proverbial buck because the mods and enhancements are not lettered. Now either the community as a whole does something vastly different than intended by the devs for gearing up their tanks or there's a point to an increased difficulty / amount of effort required to gear up. If there is a point to it, I don't see it. My guild usually has a problem with not killing things fast enough, as we either run out of time in a timed phase (i.e. Operator IX) or generally run into the enrage timer.

No idea what you are on about here. I already said that 1.8 attacks still do more than 740 damage. Since you're so strung up on percentages: one relic procs 100% more often than the other. Or 50% less. Your choice. And I am arguing that where? Seriously, are you reading this thread or do you have too many browser windows open? I don't need to get a maximum calculated value. I'm comparing a 510 defense proc relic with a 740 damage shield relic. Therefore: A 5.5% increase in defense chance (which is what I get from the proc clicky) needs to reduce my dtps by 2220 points in a 2 minute window. The damage shield relic will proc 3 times in 2 minutes: 740 * 3 = 2220. In 2 minutes at 3-4 attacks (3,5 avg) per minute, of which 70-80% (75% avg) are actually defendable I will get: 120 * 3.5 * 0.75 = 315 attacks. Avoiding 23% of these attacks thanks to my defense without procs = 315 * 0.77 = 242 attacks. My proc will be active 6 times in 2 minutes which means for 36 seconds I have 5.5% increased chance of avoiding an attack 242 / 120 * 36 * 0,055 = 3,993. Feel free to correct the math here, but from where I stand, each of these 3,9 attacks would need to be 200 damage or less for the damage shield to be better.

And that makes it better how? You either reply to somebody else or misunderstanding what I'm writing. I'm not using an absorbtion proc or clicky. I am using a defense proc and clicky. The goal is to even out the damage over a manageable timeframe. It doesn't help that in a 10 minute fight my relic will proc 15 times and absorb 740 damage because you simply can't rely on it happening when you need it. You also can't rely on any other proc happening when you need it, but 6 seconds every 20 seconds is considerably more manageable than 1 hit every 40 seconds. Boss fights aren't math. Relics can proc just before some transition when you run somewhere, just before a tankswap or, generally, when the healer has their undivided attention on you because the raid is at full health already. This shield relic has an affect on 1 attack. My defense proc relic has an effect on 18-24 attacks. 18-24 attacks which, mathematically speaking, one will be totally avoided, provided it's avoidable to begin with (which, at 70-80%, your numbers, is a pretty good chance) This whole discussion is nul and void if the damage is reduced by 740 on every attack for the next 6 seconds, however I don't interpret the text like that.

"Your math is wrong" vs "go home with your kindergarden math". Admittedly, I had some errors, one might consider them "horribly", but that's adressing the math. not insinuating that the poster is at the mental age of a kindergardener. Pretty sure it's a shield, not a rating. Quest: [OPS] The Dying Light reward: Arkanian Relic of Reactive Warding Equip: Incoming attacks have a 30% chance to grant an Absorb Shield that protects the user from 740 damage for 6 seconds. (...) once every 40 seconds (...) not in PvP

Again with the insults. Are you unable to create a post without trying to belittle whoever you're answering or do you suffer from constipation today? In that case I suggest prune juice. 1.8 attacks still do more than 740 damage. When tanking avoidable attacks at 1000 dtps or over a defense proc is better, as shadellon's math shows. My click gives 395 defense = 4.8% increase. My proc relic gives 510 defense which would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5.5 - 6% increase, which further shifts the odds towards defense. For me as Shadowtank - when I get hit by force/tech attacks shadowtanks have Resilience, offering 100% immunity for 5 seconds per minute, I can control when I need it and 5 seconds duration > 740 damage. As I said before, I do not think that a one-time absorbtion of 740 damage is anything to be happy about, considering the long recast time. Sure it looks nice on a spreadsheet that the overall reduction was 18.5dtps, but it's not steady , reliable or predictable and therefore you can't really calculate it to actually help when you need it. Worst case for me: it procs when Resilience is up, making it completely useless. (Unless of course Resilience counts before the shield in which case I stick with my original judgment which is "meh".) Again - the goal of SM gear is to make you ready for HM operations. at 69/72 the gear level already is sufficient for SM operations, getting a relic that replaces one 2% dtps reduction (defense proc) with another 2% dtps reduction that is more spiky and gives diminishing returns the higher the dtps is, is not exactly what I consider a "reward". If the stat distribution were smoother (say, 370 attacks every 20 seconds or 180 every 6) one could actually work with it, but right now for my preference it's too spiky and too little reduction at uncontrollable times.

I'm not following the step from 12000 incoming damage to 15.585 damage here, I think you made an error. 12000 / 0,77 = 15585, from there you then calculate 15585 * 0,72 = 11221. However the correct formula would be 12000 * 0,77 = 9240 Or am I missing something? Using abovementioned 5% increase I would get 12000 * 0,72 = 8640 Using the reactive shielding relic I would get 12000 * 0,77 = 9240 - 740 = 8500. Seems the shield relic wins for 1000dtps. However at 1240 dtps the numbers are 10800 for the defensive relic and 10810 for the shield relic and will continue to be in favour for the defensive relic as the numbers go higher. I'm fully 72 geared with wrists, chests and belt being 78, my defense rating is ~23%, which is in sync with Keyboardninja's math for an optimal stat distribution. (actually slightly off but I'm waiting for augments to finish). If I would have 25% defense, I'd estimate the clicky still giving me 4% increase, so the break-even-point is at ~1550 dtps.

Uhh, personal attacks..That coming from someone who quoted me with a 740 damage shield relic and then droning on about about a 1360 relic is rich I was thinking that an increase in defense means damage avoidance. An increase from 23% of all attacks being avoided -> an increase to 27% of all attacks being avoided. Since Defense is the first (and only) in line that is being checked for avoidance that's pretty clear to me. Armor and absorb are for mitigation which comes after avoidance. Would've should've... Bottom line: Out of 100 attacks an increase from 23 to 27% means I don't get hit 4 more times. Taking your quote from below: 3-4 attacks in a 40 second window are 120-160 attacks. at 23% defense chance that means out of 140 attacks I get hit 108 times, 102 times with 27%. I'm pretty sure that any SM boss encounter does more than 740 damage over 6 hits. I even dare say that trash mobs do more damage as well. Further considering the equipment mechanics in any MMO means, that the loot dropped in SM is suitable for HM ops, I am even more sure that HM operation npcs do more than 740 damage over 6 hits. Again, I'm sure it looks different for the 1360 relic, but the point is, the reward for beating Dread Palace in Story mode is unsuitable for future Dread Palace HM operations. In the end it doesn't matter if I avoid one attack that does 740 damage or if my damageshield eats that attack for 740 damage. That looks different when the attack is for 741 damage. Suddenly avoiding it is more attractive. Close, but no cigar. Over 30 seconds for a clicky or 6 seconds for a proc (and a proc gives me 6%, so roughly 2% according to your math ). either way, it's over a longer duration and not just one attack. I was simplyfying, Einstein. Perhaps you need to read up on the meaning of the word "assuming"? If NPCs attack more frequently, then the shield relic is still less favourable, as the spikyness of a single 740damage shield is still not going to help anyone. It would be another story if the shield eats 740 damage or the next attack if the damage is > 740, but alas, that's not the case. Once the fight is over it will look really nice on the spreadsheet, but from my own experience as a healer - a reliable reduction of overall incoming damage is preferred, even if the reliable, steady decrease is less than a spiky one.

That may well be, but I am not getting a dread forged relic, I am getting an Arkanian relic with a 740 shield. Are you telling me that a 740 shield once every 40 seconds is better than a +510 defense increase every 20 seconds? Or a 395 defense clicky (yes I know, procs are better but I like my oh-sith-combo of adrenal, clicky and deflection) that increases my defense from 23 to 27% ? Personally I rather have a higher chance of not getting hit to begin with than having the next 8k attack being reduced to 7260 points. Just for math reasons: an increase by 4 percent-points means that one in 25 attacks is being avoided. Assuming that NPCs also have a 1.5 second cooldown that means in every 40 second segment there are 26 attacks, of which ONE is being reduced by 740 points. Sorry, not buying that math. MAYBE for 1360 because that might actually be felt, but not for 740. Edit: Interestingly enough here you are not quite so adamant about a damage shield as 2nd relic. Care to clarify your change of heart?

Non-tanks get can pick between a Relic that adds 95 to their primary stat or 225 critical rating. Tanks effectively can "pick" a relic that gives them a damageshield for 740 points for 6 seconds. Every 40 (FOURTY) seconds. In other words, an average damage reduction of 18.5dps. Yay? What exactly am I supposed to do with a 740 point damage shield? I believe the last area where this kind of damage shield actually had a measureable impact was Quesh?

Please show me that particular law that prohibits corporations to set their own price for their own product. Really, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat here.

Has it occured to anyone that one does not NEED raid-level gear if you never ever set foot into an operation? On the same note: has it occured to anyone that it requires SLIGHTLY more effort to beat a boss encounter in an operation that it does to craft an item? Because seriously, what do you have to do? Sit in your spaceship and send your companions to gather your ressources, then click on the recipe you want, the end? Wow...and you expect the result of that to be the same as a more or less concentrated effort of 8 or 16 people? This has nothing to do with "cuddling raiders". Crafting is noway near as risky or time consuming as raiding is and thus the rewards should not be as good as raid drops. Would the crafting here be something like in Everquest (for example), where crafting is not an AFK-activity then yes...crafted items should be a viable alternative. But not like this.