That's why businesses rely on focus groups instead of message boards. It's so hard to pick out the valuable conversations on forum posts, but when you get everyone in the room, there is a different social construct and you factor in things like public speaking and personality types. On the internet, everyone's a genius who knows everything, so you can't really sift through the nonsense to get to the real meat of anything worthwhile. I just posted a thread about potential subscriber benefits and all I'm getting is flamed... this playerbase makes me lose faith in humanity and I am starting to understand why EA is voted worst company in America, because if I were the Dev's/Exec's and I read this nonsense, I'd hate my customer's too. Everyone seems to be fine with less, so why give more?

So... just to clarify, you think additional benefits to subscribers is a BAD thing... right?

I believe there are Twi'lek ones as well. But that's a bit off-topic.

But just out of curiosity... why wouldn't you want to see subscribers gain additional benefit? Is there an actual reason or are you just being internet-y and being contrary out of boredom? If the latter, I understand, sometimes that's fun, but is there a legit reason you think additional benefits for subscribers is a bad thing?

Multiple Chiss-convo's actually... so yes, if BioWare records one single additional line of dialogue referencing the fact you are Cathar, the whole "not story" argument is voided. However, if they don't ever reference it... then it's just like a weird furry armor set.

Isn't it? I have to say, if I were BioWare, and read the comments like these... I'd say "meh, screw 'em" too. LOL... so I guess in retrospect, if this is the kind of playerbase they have, I wouldn't care either.

You're inadvertently describing a DLC model. If the game were $60 to begin with and no sub fee, then what you're describing (charging for new zones) would actually make sense. But this was/is a subscription model game, i.e. you are continually paying for the game. In your mind, this would be like a $15/mo charge for the "chance" for them to release new DLC. A game like Guild Wars is more like what you're talking about. The original had several expansions that you had to buy, but once you did, you owned them, and didn't have to pay for them every month.

Hey thanks for the feedback.

It's because the debate isn't actually happening. Points are being made, questions are being asked, and people are more inclined to "sound" right than actually do what a debate is supposed to do, and that is explore the issue. So yes, you're right.

That is not a subscriber benefit though. The patch note changes are available for free. I specifically asked what you get that is MORE for being a subscriber.

Hey gang. Here are some neat little ideas on how to incentivize and grow your subscription base. Constructive feedback appreciated, flames expected: - Option 1: Increase Cartel Coin grant to offset the removal of story content from the subscription price. When the game went F2P, BioWare/EA effectively said "we are not going to charge for story content" and replaced the value of the story content with a $5/mo. Cartel Coin grant. Their subsequent decisions to charge subscribers for things like Expansion Packs, the new Cathar Race, etc., de-values the subscription even further. By upping the Cartel Coin grant to 1,000 or even 1,500 per month, these costs could easily be offset and would offer a solid irrefutable benefit for Preferred status players to subscribe. - Option 2: Make all Cartel Market purchases of "tangible" items (i.e. mounts, armorsets, crystals, etc.) "Bind to Legacy on Equip" for subscribers. Additionally, subscriber Character Legacy Unlocks (i.e. Speeder Piloting, Priority Transport, etc.) now apply to the entire Legacy. This would incentivize both subscribing, and spending money in the Cartel Market. This would also offset the current price of the Legacy Bound armorsets and weapons at the current Legacy Vendors (i.e. 250k for one piece of chest armor). This could easily replace the 500 Cartel Coin grant. - Option 3: Offer subscription at $10/mo. without the 500 Cartel Coin grant. This would give players the option to retain subscription at a fair cost-offset for the fact that BioWare/EA is no longer charging for story content without trying to artificially replace the cost-offset with a Cartel Coin grant. - Option 4: In addition t to the current 500 Cartel Coin grant, offer subscriber-exclusive Legacy Bound "tangible" (i.e. Armor, weapon, speeder, pet, etc.) items each month. This would give a huge "mental" incentive to subscribers as they now have immediate access to new cool things that Preferred's can't obtain. I am currently a subscriber and love the game, but I feel that I am being pushed daily to the Preferred-Customer level with each subsequent announcement. As a subscriber, my only incentive is that I do not "lose" anything, but since I am no longer in effect "paying for story content," I have actually lost something, and it was replaced with a Cartel Coin grant (I won't get into the psychology of them calling them "Complimentary Coins", as that's some Marketing Jedi Mind trick right there). Subscribers can be powerful evangelists for an MMO especially in a Free2Play world. Subscribers are also guaranteed repeat income that does not rely on how much new stuff comes out in the Marketplace each month. I'm deeply saddened that the Cathar Race won't be available as part of the subscription fee and can only hope that BioWare/EA can see how this is affecting their player base and adjust accordingly. I want to be an evangelist for this game, because I feel it's under-credited in the MMO landscape, but BioWare/EA is making it more and more difficult for me to convince my friends that a subscription is worth it.

Interesting find. I think the larger point of the current debate is why BioWare/EA seems to be pushing people to the Preferred section of their business model by de-valuing the subscription model. By charging for things like the Cathar Race instead of including it in the subscription cost (which then would mean you have it as long as you're subbed, and thus, could lose it from unsubbing), it seems that BioWare is not valuing their subscribers or trying to gain more.

More content like? What do subs get that is more?

No, you are misconstruing the definition of value in an economics argument. The economical definition of "value" is: "monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade" If you charge $0 for something, then you are valuing the item at $0. What it "means to you" and the "blood sweat and tears" that went into creating it, DOES NOT MATTER. It's value is $0. Period. You cannot argue this. That being said, I say again, you cannot pay for story content. So what you are PAYING for, has changed, whether you like it or not. You cannot pay for story content... you CANNOT pay for story content. So what are you paying for? The subscriber benefits outside of story content (which we had before) plus 500 cartel coins. So you can say "well, the story content before was the $5 out of the $15 subscription fee" and you are valuing the rest of the benefits (credit caps, character slots, etc.) at $10/mo. That's fine, but BioWare is not offering the subscription model at $10/mo. They only offer $15... so now, the story content has been replaced by $5 worth of Cartel Coins as a subscriber benefit (i.e. this SHOULD be your argument, but you keep missing it). I would actually prefer to take the "complimentary" cartel coins off the table and have them offer a $10 subscription, because yes, when you look at value (as in the actual economical definition) they HAVE "taken something away" since you can no longer pay for story content, and replaced it with $5 worth of their in-game currency. EDIT: Also, the story content that you CAN pay for (i.e. RotHC) subscribers have to pay additional for.

Let me phrase it this way. It is literally (as in literally) impossible, let me say again, IMPOSSIBLE, to pay for story content. So, how does the $15 sub pay for as much as it did when you HAD to pay for story content?

But the story content of the game now has a value of $0... you see that right? EDIT: Or rather the story content has been replaced by 500 coins as a subscription benefit. Does this make sense to you? Am I not being clear enough?

I think that's the giant misconception here. No one is asking you to un-sub, I'm a sub and will stay that way, but I also want to be valued as a consumer with more than "well we're not taking anything away from you" like my apartment analogy in my previous post. I don't understand why in your mind this seems to be a bad idea.

Failed logic. You have to factor in what they are now giving away for free... (i.e. all story content) and take that off the table, then look at what you actually GET for paying the subscription (i.e. quickbars, UI, character slots, etc.) because that is what the subscription NOW pays for. So you would have to value all that out, and then add in the 500 coins, and compare thusly. You are no longer paying for story content, because that is free.

The 500 Cartel Coins for subs are neither free nor complimentary. They cost $15/mo. It is the only thing that was ADDED to the subscription when the game went F2P. There were lots that were taken away. If you refer to: http://www.swtor.com/free/features ... all of the features listed as "subscriber benefits" were there prior to F2P launch (with the exception of the additional quickbars). Let's try an analogy. You live in an apartment complex. You pay $1,000 per month total which includes rent, utilities, garbage, parking, internet, etc. Now... the complex sends you a notice: "Dear residents, Starting next month, people will be allowed to live here for free! They will have to pay for their utilities, internet, garbage, and can rent a parking spot for a fee or choose to park offsite; or they may choose to just use the apartment without electricity, water, internet, etc. as a living/sleeping space. For those of you paying $1,000 per month, you will continue to receive the same great services you have now, plus we will give you $50/mo. to spend at our café! We thank you for your continued support!" Now, assuming the utility costs for everything non-rent related is let's say 50%, they have just devalued the $1,000/mo. rent payment by half, because people paying $500/mo., who bought their parking spot, who bought their internet contract, their garbage contract, etc., while they may have paid $2,000 in the first month... over the long haul, they will get the better value and identical experience. So the argument of "if you don't like it, go preferred and buy the one-time unlocks" is a completely valid one... the question is, WHY is BioWare/EA making that a completely valid question? NOTE: I would love someone with a little time on their hands to go do an actual calculation of how much in Cartel Coins it would cost to have all the benefits of subs (customizations, character slots, unlocks, etc.) and parse out the financial benefits of buying everything up front and how long it would take to get the return on that investment.

Just out of curiosity... why do you seem to be on the side of "everything is fine the way it is" and "BW/EA shouldn't give customers anything more than they have to?" I'm reading your responses and am baffled quite frankly. My main gripe is that sub's JUST paid for the RotHC, and now we will be asked to purchase a race expansion. The argument that "might be able to pay for Cathar with a full month stipend if you have a security key" (which means you also might not, or that they are pricing the Cathar at 600cc), means we won't be able to use that stipend for the other things they're releasing, like CC dyes, or new packs, etc. It seems like BW/EA is de-incentivising sub's and are hoping more people cancel sub and go Preferred. That may make sense from a profit standpoint, but not a customer loyalty standpoint. I'm sure there are tons of people who are out-spending sub's as Preferred's, but if they would just do things like up the CC grant, discount CC items for Subs, give sub's access to new major content as it's released (i.e. races), they could get the pref's to sub AND still buy CC's. Having more subs means more evangelism for the game, which means more f2p signups, more preferred purchasers, and, since subs will be incentivised, more subs. It seems as though they are taking the f2p model and using it to extract as much money as possible from the existing base, instead of expanding the base.

I think a fair solution to the "Subs pay for Cathar" issue, is simple. Up the Cartel Coin grant for subs to 1,500cc per month. That way we are literally getting what we pay for. Other F2P/SubOption MMO's do this, so when they release new content in their marketplace, I never feel cheated or taken advantage of for my devotion. I feel like I'm getting a BENEFIT for being a sub. All the sub-oriented options, and a healthy marketplace grant if I want to purchase cosmetic stuff. This is an extremely simple solution. If BW/EA only sees this as "well we will lose X in Cartel Coin purchases" and not as in "if we offer this, more frequent Cartel Purchasers will turn sub" then I give up. This is simple economics/psychology. If an F2P spends $5-10 on Cartel purchases a month, and sees that sub's get $15 worth of "free" coins for being sub, the option to sub becomes much more enticing. Then the new sub-converts will be more liberal with their spending, buy more things, and will likely continue to spend the additional $5-10 / mo. on TOP of their sub fee, simply because of the psychology of "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" for their sub payment.

The main pain point for me is the space battles, which by definition should BE the 3D experience in SWTOR, are totally ruined by the cursor and inability to target anything.

I prefer to think of it as: "N-no sir... i-it's pronounced... 'le-ga-tay'..." "Whatever legget."

I don't see why this has taken so long. They could just base the gear on number of "Alignment points" total, with restrictions on Light/Dark alignment... For instance, my BH has 1950 Light points and 1800 Dark points for 3750 total points, with an alignment of "Neutral +250". The Neutral gear can just be based on alignment points total, like "Must have 3000 Alignment points and be Neutral" I think this gets attention because the Dev's have promised it repeatedly, several times, over the course of the last year+, and nothing has been done. Plus, this negates the alignment system in total, as then it isn't about "your character" and becomes about "farming points" for bonuses/gear. You are basically penalized for being anything but the highest dark/light side. It's like saying "we're going to put a morality system in place, but unless you're completely evil or completely good, you don't have access to everything," when in any good system of moral decisions, no one is (or should be) ever completely evil/good. Also, the last KOTOR game (The Sith Lords) HEAVILY stressed the negativity of doing things all evil/good and promoted pragmatism or the rebellion against pragmatism. Why move backwards in storytelling from that?

Doc and Campbell have no clue what you're talking about: http://i.imgur.com/fgH1N.jpg