I'll need to get TORParse links from you guys before I add you onto the app list. Also, for those of you that use Leftovers, I've recently gotten a message from one of the admins that has led to the deletion of the thread on that site. I have been told that I am not allowed to post threads that "poach members", and because I did not have a charter for my team, I was not allowed to basically create a thread for creating an Allstar pug group. So from here on out, I'm going to have to rely on only this forum, as I won't obtain a charter from that site just to have the right to pug. Perhaps scheduling, but not until a team has been formed. EDIT: Also, I will be selecting a team based on the current applications on July 1st, and we'll be assembling a group based on who I believe are the best choices for composition. However, I would also like others to voice their opinions around the time we manage to have enough applicants to fill a team, as I'd like this to still maintain a level of community support.

It was manageable because: -I was the sin tank of the group, running a mix of Obroan PvP gear and Dread Forged set bonus armorings. Best tank counter to Madness sin damage is sin tank, as you probably see jug and PT tanks melting so easily because Madness damage counters their advantages through DoTs and internal attacks. Not because their DPS is so huge, but because they hold a class and spec advantage over any tank that isn't a sin. -Anni Marauder sucks against Madness DPS, at least the comp our member was running (raged at him a little for not taking the AOE damage reduction talent points). DoT damage reduction, no burst, all sustained single target that a healer could lol through. Overall, Madness sin's heavy counter is in extreme burst damage, which a Deception assassin excels better in because their range of burst attacks can be used to bypass Madness sin CDs better than any other burst spec. -Pyro PT was getting focused targeted by both Madness sins, didn't really die until the end of each rounds. Fights would last at least till the last min of each round, would all determine how well we spaced for the double Death Field. This means the two didn't really deal out that powerful of damage to him, considering Pyro has very strong weaknesses in internal damage from Death Fields along with the Assassinate spam not really stressing him, only would make matters intense based on a slow guard swap. -Operative healer of ours was geared out in some Conq pieces and had never run a ranked WZ prior to the 2 matches. Not exactly a good setup if an undergeared, noob healer can keep pace with Madness damage and didn't really struggle unless I was slow with the guard swap, which we actually experienced more with the second team we played against that focused heavily on burst damage with Combat Sent and Pyro Vanguard. Then you've never seen one operate with good pressure damage spec as a teammate. Deception's utility to the team wouldn't be extreme heavy burst damage; it would be viable with just enough to take advantage of a healer under heavy pressure because it has a range of burst attacks to side step Evasion, unlike a Carnage Marauder. And since Concealment ops are a joke in regards to survivability versus a Deception sin's defensive capabilities and it's small sustain in VS + Shock, it's viable for longer lasting fights. Especially since most of the actual skill in burst damage isn't just outright killing someone in a matter of seconds; it's using your extreme heavy hitting attacks to direct the focus of the enemy team. With a Madness sin fulfilling the pressure aspect of the damage, it's only a matter of time before a Deception assassin could fine the right target to burst, something that would require a little bit of patience instead of trying to kill someone in the first few moments of the fight. You miss the point: you are not trying to kill anyone in the opener. You are trying to effective break down the players on the enemy team when a pressure damage spec has effectively force a team to a point of struggling to mitigate said team damage. Your job, as a burst damage player, is to utilize the burst damage at the key moment, which for some odd reason, people seem to think it can only be done in the first moments of the fight. Which it can't: a healer can't keep track of a Madness assassin pressuring his entire team, including him, with a Deception assassin throwing in average to strong burst along with CC moves such as Low Slash, Electrocute, Spike, and Force Overload. And that's the issue where people miss Deception viability: your job is to direct a tank and healer's focus away from their team onto themselves, and force them to overexert themselves attempting to heal through your damage and the pressure damage affecting the entire team. The game is more complex than just "all burst" and "all pressure". If you combine both, and your team comp isn't heavily countered by the enemy's in classes and specs, then you perform better than anyone. If you choose to place all your chips into one type of damage and deny the other, you basically make your team's playstyle and strat predictable and beatable. Versus the combination of the two creating an unpredictability that can always be a path to victory in the hands of players who really grasp that concept.

I have, and the damage is all sustained AOE and burst. We took on a Jug tank, Op heals, and double Madness sin comp with an Anni Marauder, sin tank, ops heals, and Pyrotech PT: we went 1-1. Overall, the damage we took in, especially the PT (seemed to suffer the most from the double DF) was manageable, and to the next point: Deception, I think, has the best burst not because of the actual damage potential, but because it's the only spec that actually can be diverse in damage. You have an nearly even mix of Force and melee burst attacks, versus things such as Carnage being nearly all weapon damage, Concealment being all tech damage, and PT Pyro being a little more sustained in comparison to Deception damage. Against a Madness assassin, Deception actually has a very good advantage: -Death Field damage intake reduction -Force Shroud that clears out Madness damage. -Heavy hitting Force and melee burst attacks > Madness light armor -Phase Walk to close the gap to Madness kiters (I found this trick better used on snipers, where you can drop a PW at their feet before knockback and just teleport back next to them. Still works well for kiters if planned correctly). -Taunts to help mitage fluff damage. All pressure DPS comps don't really shine well when the other team has DPS who can coordinate taunts, especially if you have three different players who can lower the team damage in take. Combined with Madness sustained damage, it's a way more effective usage of DPS in comparison to double Madness, since a Deception burst compliments pressure damage over double Madness just amplifying a spec that needs emphasis in an area it doesn't have. All sustained, the changes gave it sustained solo target damage to it's AOE capabilities, not actual burst.

Likewise! Hopefully one of us will make the clear, we'll see in the coming months. EDIT: Posted a couple of apps to the list, from Leftoversraiding.org

And I told you the only reason why Carnage Marauder sitting on the op heal could possibly be bad is because they are easy to control and contain. Therefore, if you still have a problem, your argument is that you have an issue with sticking a solo burst DPS on a healer. Which then means you have a problem with the strat that I basically said is the best method, simply put as a "one two punch". When I responded that you have never played against a good pressure DPS in arenas, that means you've never seen a player that could make a strat regarding a DPS healer camping viable. Because a good pressure DPS means their team will be too busy focusing on keeping themselves alive and overall trying to shut down a DoT player, while your solo burst DPS is more viable by controlling and solo bursting a healer that is too busy healing a team to focus on countering burst damage and healing through extreme pressure damage at the same time. So again, I have read your statements and understand the meaning behind them, which is why I have presented counter arguments to them above. You have not done the same, whether it's a disregard for reading or just inability to comprehend simple team based mechanics. Please go back and read. Whether or not you're too busy sitting on a high horse to actually realize your argument has been countered or some other reason for avoiding the debate at hand isn't really a factor at this stage anymore. You've been countered, provide a retort or admit defeat/refuse to make a response instead of displacing your own disrespect onto someone as if they are the ones demonstrating it instead of you. That's actually completely backwards. All pressure damage in PvP is basically just "fluff damage" without any burst damage, not even the Madness sustained solo target buffs can make a double pressure DPS spec viable (lol at Madness sin + Madness Sorc DPS combo). It's about as effective as a double Deception sin build, where "all burst and no pressure" is easy to counter with the right coordination with stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, hard counter defensive CDs, etc. You have no versatility in regards to damage in those comps, where the only reason you should actively see any success is from the factor of class/role matchups rather than team build strength. The better composition to run I believe right now, is probably the Madness Assassin and the Deception Assassin for DPS as Deception sin is one of the only (if not, the only) solo target burst damage build that has an even mix of burst damage types and survivability to effectively take advantage of the Madness sin's extreme pressure damage capabilities. The only real spec that has some utility in shutting down a sin nearly completely are the classes that no one really plays in arenas: Mercs. Damage has always been designed in a manner of two concepts: pressure and burst. So if you want to have the best damage, it's really not too hard to understand that the best method of play isn't to just completely overwhelm the enemy in one of those fields, simply because people can easily figure out how to counter you if all you know how to do is "one thing". You have to be the best at both, and if you do both correctly, everything melts. "All burst and no pressure" only succeeds when you fight slow derps, and "all pressure and no burst" only works on enemies who have a bad comp. in comparison to yours.

My parse was done in Madness for the 1 mill, not Deception.

We have a crafter in guild that can take care of both relics (SA + FR), and we can always run Nefra NiM before the ops run to take care of implants. As for the enhancements, our crafter also knows pretty much every DPS enhancement you should require, so all we would need to do to get you NiM read would be a matter of crafting and NiM Nefra. I'll have to talk to him about it, regarding if he would be willing to craft the materials just for mats. List is updated. To clarify, I will not be slotting anyone for the team yet as I'd like to consider everyone for each role and prevent an issue of "first come, first serve" from being the key to making the team over "the best candidates will run". So feel free to post apps, the names you see me add up here come from Leftovers if you don't see their post here.

I'll list you as a backup then.

Kenji, you updated the leaderboard with my TTK, but you still have my Deception parse up instead of the new Madness one.

So your argument is with the Carnage Marauder, not the concept of "pressure damage + solo target burst damage = win"? You should actually check above, I conceded Carnage may be a bad choice due to how easy it is to restrict their movements/damage. Don't try to project your own shortcomings onto me and claim I'm the one who didn't read.

DWBI already has something going for this, dork.

Because Sorc DPS be squishy and Merc + Op heals be the best combo for Dread Ops. Sorcs shine better in 16 man, but again, if you have the skill and can argue that you'll be the best fit for the team, by all means post it in here. Comp isn't set in stone completely.

Sign up thread is up, you can find it here Alternatively, here is the Leftovers thread link

Name: Zuhara Class: Assassin Spec: Madness (Main), Deception Guild: Tomb of Sorrows Dummy Parse: 3752, TTK 4:26 Favorite Operations Boss Parse: 3966 DPS, NiM Dashroode

Greetings everyone! With a server clear of Dread Fortress with the NiM Power Buff having never occured, the top imp PvE guilds of Begeren Colony are looking to hand pick the very best of the server to tackle Dread Palace and have a group go through the content to claim the "Deposer of the Dread Masters" title for downing the instance with NiM power active. 1) Who can apply. Simply put, don't sign up for this thread if you are not fully geared in at least min maxed Dread Forged. This team will need to be in the best possible position to down the content, and gear can not be an issue overall. Other than that, anyone is open to submit an app into this thread for a position on the raid team. I will be updating a list of what roles we need to fill, but overall, here's what we have so far: Tanks: 1 Jugg Tank 1 Sin or PT tank DPS: -Zuhara, Madness Assassin 1 Possible Melee DPS Spot, diverse Marauder or Veng Jugg (Will place a rDPS in this spot if the applications are not exceptional) 1 Sniper DPS 1 Merc DPS or Sniper DPS Heals: 1 Operative Healer 1 Merc Healer Current Applicants (Will be selecting a team from this roster on June 22, 2014): -PersausDCW, Operative Healer (Possible Merc, but needs gearing) -Denisse, Concealment Operative DPS (aka Madelene) -Madelene, PT Tank -Lint'licker, Merc DPS -Gag's Marauder (Unavaliable until July 8th) -Camel's PT tank -Camel's Sniper -Koltowinfrey's Merc healer Backups: -Maethyra, Sin Tank The healer spots above are going to be the most strict in terms of team composition, but the types of roles above can be interchanged based on the skill of the applicant and the overall feasibility of taking in the certain specs to the fights. If you plan to present a class differing from the ones requested, please provide a description of how your utility would be vital to the team in regards to specific boss fights (Pro tip: Damage potential/type of DPS of the spec is not the only area being considered here. Some classes and specs are too squishy to take into NiM DP, so make sure you back yourself up on the defensive side of the argument as well when you present your case). 2) The Application There will be differing posts required for applying here in thread based on your role: Tanks You will need to upload a video of your tanking certain boss fights, as there is no accurate measure of a tank's capability through a parser or any other number form. I understand presenting video evidence of hard boss fights in this timeframe may be a bit difficult, so if you can only apply with testimonial and raid experience, we'll take everything into consideration. DPS You will need to post an app following this format Name: Class: Spec: (Type all specs you can run for this line) Guild: Dummy Parse: Favorite Operations Boss Parse: (Basically, post a parse here where you feel your mastery was demonstrated in an operation boss fight. IE, I will be uploading a parse of a 3.9k on NiM Dashroode.) Healers You will need to follow the same format above, except you will not need to upload a Dummy Parse. 3) Expectations and Overall Raid Atmosphere To make this perfectly clear: no one in this raid team will be the "master". The goal of the mission here is to bring together a group of talented individuals to down content, and no one will be a dictator in this group. I want everyone who is applying to prepare themselves for theory crafting, leadership over certain mechanics they may feel need specific attention, and to determine overall where we stand in an op. Secondly, this environment you will sign up for will be undeniably competitive. Do not apply if you can not control your ego, nor if you are too afraid for it to be bruised if your skill in a particular area is lacking. I will ultimately be making calls on who stays in the team or who needs to be replaced, but I will not be unreasonable and remove people at the first mistake, perhaps not even consistent ones should there be a fair reason. However, I will capitalize on every mistake, and I will be blunt and straightforward with you in regards to mechanics I believe may have messed up on. I will make sure that the raid team will always experience a negative reaction to wiping, yet I will not personally attack anyone's character or blatantly insult anyone unless ego is a problem (ultimately, I'll remove you from the team if I feel that ego is a problem instead of insulting). Do not take criticism or any sort of frustration that may come from wiping as a personal attack; we are all looking to solve the problem and aren't here to wipe all night without any bit of progress being made. However, some problems will need finger pointing to be done if people do not realize/don't want to take responsibility for a mistake, so be prepare for a competitive and serious environment along with the negative reinforcement that will be present when we fail. That's it for now guys, hope you all made it this far! Feel free to post your app below and any questions you may have, and I will be sure to get back to you shortly. I will begin this thread by posting my application, and look forward to seeing people step up here to take a crack at the limited opportunity we have here with the buffed NiM Palace! Should there be enough interest and talent available, consideration for 16m will take place based on who applies. -Zuhara

You've never played against a good fluff damage spec, actually. Perhaps a Carnage Marauder is a bad choice because of how easy to is to actually counter their burst. But in reality, the damage combo is still pretty good. Because this. Literally only lost the match because our second DPS, a Deception sin, didn't know how to react to burst damage and got globalled in the beginning of the last two full rounds. This was pre 2.8 as well, can even link you to a post that prove it if you wish. Madness has always been a spec like Smash monkey for the sins, except the group damage wasn't as instant (3k-7k DFs + DoTs vs. 9k bombs). Now, they have excellent sustain damage, while their weakness is in survivability. Overall, they are perfect pressure damage specs for taking out an entire team; saying they need to solo target would be like telling a Smasher to waste 9k bombs on one target. And what makes it possible to effectively utilize pressure damage? You force the healer to pick their poison; they can't heal a full team with a solo target DPSer planted on them and a pressure damage player destroying their team (the only way to counter good Madness sins is to kill them). Just someone controlling the healer for a few seconds alone places their team on the point of no return, having someone take advantage of a healer is pretty easy when you have a good pressure damage player forcing their attention away from themselves.

**** the pubs. Join the dark side and form a team here plz.

Actually no, I'd be willing to argue it's the best type of damage combination to run in the game. Want textbook execution DPS that basically shuts a healer down indefinitely? Run a fluff damage player and a single target burst. Stick the fluff damage player on the enemy team as a whole, let the solo target DPS focus on killing the healer. Healer can't keep pace with damage going out on the entire team from fluff and they also can't keep themselves alive with a solo target DPS camping their movements along with the enemy tank controlling their movements as well. Provided both your players are good at what they do. Why? Because the skill in playing fluff damage specs comes in attacking a team and the second part in skill is managing survivability. If you have quick reflexes, and work well with your team in regards to peels, roots, stuns, knockbacks, defensive CDs, smart play, etc, you can make that comp as the best setup in the game. With the current buffs going out, I personally think Madness Assassin (sin variant of Madness brings way more utility to the fight such as taunts, tanky defensive CDs, PW to kite effectively, and stealth) and Pyrotech DPS would be the best combination to run against current arena builds, over carnage + madness sorc. Only way to stop Madness sin damage is to kill them, you can't shut it down like you can a Carnage Marauder just by popping Saber Ward, Deflection, Evasion, or other accuracy reducing attacks.

The only instance where I have found where I can H2F from out of combat with DoTs ticking on someone is if I gained enough range on them to where DoTs, for some reason, wouldn't put me in combat. Put a DoT on someone at the end of a Voidstar round, and see the effects at the start of the next one. Usually in the gate, you won't be in combat, but the catch is that they can also H2F since the DoT damage won't place them in combat either.

To be honest, KOTOR Revan was basically a "Mary Sue" character in my eyes. Like the Dovahkiin from Skyrim, you did everything basically in their story of him. You were the center of attention, the entire galaxy revolved around you, and you never really made a mistake that basically had a lasting negative result that you could consider as a true "defeat". Overall, he was too perfect. No one likes "Mary Sue" perfection like characters, no one wants to read about the perfect person who can do no wrong living out in their world where nothing bad truly happens to them. So when he was announced as a returner in TOR, I was personally disappointed as I didn't want to see a character like that fit into an entirely new era and an entirely new setting, involving characters I can relate with more. However, with the events that unfolded in the Foundry and the way he was portrayed during your encounter with him, I actually am more fond of the character now. He gained a personality, where the story writers placed him in a universe where it didn't revolve around him, and his character developed deeper as for the first time in his story, he actually loses. You get to see him not as a perfect Force user or philosopher anymore, only as an interesting venue into philosophy regarding the Force that actually puts it on the same level as the other two extremes. Now, I'm kind of excited to see what comes next for him in this storyline should he make a return. My qualms with the character came from the fact that he had never been written in any other fashion other than as a perfect hero that could basically do no real wrongs in their universe, and that has completely changed with the Foundry. So now that he's actually more of a believable and relatable character, I look forward to seeing more of him in the upcoming content if he is going to return at all.

Still. One second? You had to beat me by only one second? -_-

You bastard.

Oh, don't take this as a "people can't play nice together on BC' comment. It's in regards as to how with our history on BC in multiple mediums of the game such as PvP, PvE, and RP, we've had drama stem mostly from people being unable to cooperate with each other. Which, based on my interactions with others and how two of my PvE guilds' method of operations have gone, I believe the problem stems from a lack of communication and understanding of each other more so than an actual refusal to support one another. So, basically put, the only thing I wanted to really touch on is that we really make sure we "get to know each other" in this thread/at the summit. A lot of drama stems mostly because expectations and overall goals/personal preferences aren't clear until you see two or more of them clashing, so I'd like see our discussion really reveal each other's characters more than anything if we're going to achieve a level of unity on the progression raiding front.

I like the idea behind this thread. For starters, two things: 1. Contra Sanctus is basically dead now. What's left has moved Pubside or has joined up with Tomb of Sorrows. 2. There is another set of small raiders, from the guild <Unzip Thud>. They relatively keep to themselves, but would probably be more than happy to fill in for certain roles for operations that aren't the Dread Ops HM/possibly NiM where they don't have to use lockouts. I'm sure if you guys sent them a message/asked them to join in this discussion, we can make something happen. Overall, the main problem that the end game progression community has here on BC is relatively simple: terrible operations group compositions and RL issues or guild drama preventing consistent raid teams from existing. Let's go with the first part of that problem: terrible raid comps. There are way too many people playing the classes and specs that are not optimal for raiding, where Deception Assassins, Lightning Sorcs, and Arsenal Mercs reign supreme for DPS overall. As for healers, I have yet to be apart of a raid group impside that actively uses a Merc for heals, where the best healer combination for the Dread Ops is Merc + Op. And for tanking, my CS and ToS group who I have spent half a year working with in the progression content and have only recently been with ToS to put DF and DP HM on farm, have utilized the worst composition of "double sin tanks", with op and Sorc heals. Without a bursty Merc to help focus on the sin tanks (Merc heals is the perfect counterbalance to the weaknesses of a sin tank) and Sorc heals that don't actively shine well enough without the group size being more than 8, I can whole heartedly say that we're going into the operations on a level that puts us at around 70%, instead of the full 100% that can possibly make clearing the content child's play. However, I guess this could be only my group's main problem, but I'm willing to wager that because most of the replacement spots I have been able to fill are usually non optimal DPS and Sorc heals, the server's elite Impside isn't exactly on the best of this concept either. Most of the raid teams I have seen and been apart of have very problematic issues in regards to how everyone's schedules mix together. Whether it's someone having internet issues at the same time another has to afk for things such as picking up family/friends from work, most raid teams I've been apart of rarely go through an entire night where the only break in combat/progressing is the agreeded upon "10 minute break". Not to mention, how many raid teams have fallen apart because main tanks, top DPS, or top healers suddenly have RL issues preventing them from playing the game anymore/for an extended period of time, which is felt heavily in an 8 man team of raiders where having replacements is basically unheard of in anything besides average DPS. Secondly, guild drama. A lot of people essentially have a mixture of personalities, which is fine. But the main problems I see stemming from the players in the two guilds I have been apart of have been in regards to the question, "clearing content or having fun?" Ultimately, CS basically crashed and burned under an even split between the raid team on that matter, where ultimately, the sparking fire came from a healer who was benched and decided to start blaming the raid leaders/other stronger raid team members for taking the guild away from its goals over making improvements, effectively turning the pubside guild against the uncertain raid team (there were really only 2 people that actively supported the team's need for more strict behavior in boss fights, the others wanted to avoid picking a side in an attempt to avoid the drama). And with Tomb of Sorrows, our Harbinger DPS player that was top DPS ended up leaving because of issues regarding guild members' personal treatment of the game and raiding, where many people felt the atmosphere was too negative to have fun clearing the content. Which, to give an update, ToS is still doing fine as we have replaced him and have been using the recent time farming DF and DP HM to gear up our replacements in preparation for our Thursday run on NiM DF. So as a suggestion based on my experience with raiding guilds so far, I think it may be best to make sure that we also discuss how each guild specifically treats the game's progression content and make sure everyone knows what to expect whenever they fill in for a team they aren't normally apart of. Are these players more strict, will bluntly call out people if they mess up and openly criticize areas/roles that are slacking in a fight, and present a competitive environment over one that is lighthearted in an effort to focus more on downing content? Or do you have the flip side, where a set of players won't really criticize anyone, won't call out anyone even if they may need a little bit of a wakeup call, and strive to maintain a positive and happy atmosphere over a competitive one, choosing to maintain "fun" over efficient boss clears? One of the main problems towards our server is how well people can play nice with each other, as some of the remaining veterans can easily agree on no matter the medium of the game. So in order to help achieve that goal should we begin to work with each other, we should make sure we know how each and every one of us treats the game and what our goals are in regards to "progression level raiding".

And this type of response is exactly why the term "anti social" needs to be redefined. In short, the overall term is completely biased, where the actual root meaning is "against social". The definitions in various links indicate that an air of venomous or antagonistic intent exists with the root meaning by default, which is why you see such a strong and opinionated denial of classifying the OP as such, along with the OP's disdain for the label. To put it simply, yes, if you look at only what the root term defines with an unbiased opinion, you would fall under the main category of being "anti social", as you are avoiding social interaction with others with comments such as "If I can't do it alone, I don't care to do it." Is that problem? It shouldn't be, no one can say they've never been anti social before in their lives as everyone gets tired or doesn't care about interacting with people. The only reason it has such a negative meaning is because people who depend on social interaction for positive feelings experience some form of emotional negativity when they are denied your company, no matter the reason. Thus, "anti social" being a negative thing is actually something you can not control, as you will always fit the negative meaning of the word in someone's eyes, even if all you do is say, "I appreciate the offer, but I want to do this mission on my own." So don't get worked up over something you can't control. So what if you're anti social, all it really means at the core of it is is that you prefer to do things by yourself no matter the reason. Anything else is just a game of popularity and politics, to be completely honest. Which can be fun, if you see things from a certain perspective, as long as you always remember that it's only a game