I have to agree this madness change is amazing. It puts it over Deception in both PvE and PvP now. The healing increase and dmg buff is sooooo good.

Madness already did more DPS than deception before 1.1.2 in PvE and now it is even better for pvp and got even more damage for PvE! Why go deception? Madness seems to now cover both game spectrum very very well.

The problem here is you are only accounting for recklessness. The other shocks you get while recklessness isn't up provide an increased dps output and I'm not even focusing on pvp anyways. It isn't like you only crit shock when recklessness is used. This thread wasn't made to argue the semantics of chain shock and its usefulness anyways. @bry What do you mean "super slow mo" ? if you're saying you were killing things slow then you weren't doing it right. Madness kills groups of enemies way faster than deception.

Yeah i went and respecced to avoidance because the 3 seconds doesn't make a big difference now that I really look at it since lightning discharge lasts 18 seconds as it is and the cd on discharge is naturally 15s. The thing I really want is charge mastery + darkswell for the 3% crit and force regen. Honestly the 6% to thrash doesn't matter to me much. I don't think this is possible though without sacrificing vital talents.

I completely agree about the thrash animation and I will probably switch my build to include avoidance. The discharge doesn't seem to make much sense now that I look at it.

Yeah that is what I thought. So that dark embrace out of stealth is important to me. I like being able to freely manage my force because I can spam thrash/shock to my hearts content. Also check my edit to my post above yours.

I think my logical reasoning here is for dark charge because I have been successful using dark charge with this spec in pvp but it is minimal at best. You do bring up a good point about that. Edit: here is a good idea here with a 0/13/28 build that gives you survivability by sacrificing the discharge cd, dark embrace, and darkswell but instead giving you a permanent 10 force while keeping all the goodies. Either way this build will probably become moot after the change, unfortunately, so I will probably switch to my variation of 5/5/31 which includes more survivability. My only issue with this is that devour seems almost useless without parasitism and I feel like those 2-3 points could be spent more wisely.

Yeah you have some good points there. I'm trying to keep this build viable but it is difficult with the loss of induction. @ DarthNorik I completely agree. darkswell is hit or miss. it can either save you an extra thrash or be completely useless but I still see flaws in the full madness build.

Well I guess I could probably put less importance on blackout since it was changed from an increased force regen to only a 10 force buff but there is a still a big issue with the 5/5/31 madness build and it is that dark embrace is completely useless imo. It only grants faster regen in stealth and 6 sec after which is like nothing. It just seems silly to be making hybrids completely useless aside from darkness/madness. I'll keep saying this though, I highly doubt bioware will only be changing that 1 box. It will be several changes.

I have to say I do completely agree with you about madness but you are definitely missing the point of the hybrid as are many others. It is not just about induction. Not in the slightest. With the hybrid you gain: 1. Blackout regen which is IMO the most important skill. It makes force management amazing. 2. Maul increase and induction. These put a major buff on two abilities. 3. 30% armor with my 013/28 special build 4. reduced discharge cd which means you can keep lightning discharge ticking. I am not trying to argue over anything though. I am just trying to show hybrid madness isn't useless by the slightest and it has many perks to it. With full madness 5/5/31 spec you are not only squishier but you are also worrying about force management without blackout. For those saying this build will become useless when the induction change is implemented it is an easy fix. Go 2/11/28 or 2/11/28 alt and the problem of a useless talent is solved while still keeping the all valuable blackout.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree because 30% maul increase is valuable because it puts a burst in your sustained rotation. The build isn't really about the induction either, it is about the blackout talent. Blackout out of stealth is soo valuable. I never run out of force with this build unless I have to spam all my big moves real fast. I do agree, though, that madness is optimal but the hybrid madness just gives a ton more freedom. As of now the talent change hasn't been implemented so there is no point in trying to kill this build quite yet. I still do no believe it will be "useless" after the change is implemented. Even then, I am confident the change will be much more than just 1 lousy box and it will affect the other tress as well.

I have no idea what you are talking about because the arm pen build doesn't lower any cd's if you are talking about the basic arm penetration build. You must be talking about the arm penetration build that adds the force shroud/speed cd's. Chain shock isn't rubbish though, however I do agree the lowered cd's is more effective and useful for a lot of situations the 9% arm pen is out dps'd by chain shock if you are going for optimal dps. So it is not garbage.

^^ Exactly. There is really no use at all for alacrity unless you really want to spam lightning or use crushing darkness outside of Raze proc. It isn't worth sacrificing crit/surge/accuracy for some measly alacrity.

Actually it really won't affect it too badly because the "bugged" talent you refer to which has yet to be implemented still allows for 30% maul increase out of surging charge. The only downside is that you would lose the induction 2 stack. The way to compensate for this is just to spare your use of shock and ONLY use it when Unearthed Knowledge is about to expire. I barely use shock as it is right now because I keep getting lucky with my Raze and Unearthed Knowledge procs. When they actually implement the talent change I'm sure it will be more than just that talent in order to balance everything out but it shouldn't affect my build too much. @Kulain yeah I am considering dropping the 1% parasitism because it really doesn't help that much but I aim to keep the DoT protection because 70% of the time I die to massive DoTs and not big hits.

I love it! I wish I would have tested this build out earlier but it is simply wonderful! I was playing Deception 7/31/3 Build and it was very good when procs got lucky and when I was able to manage my cd's in a logical manner. Good build and fun for melee, although I think now I would recommend chain shock over the armor piercing build if you like deception. However, I decided to switch to Hybrid madness 0/13/28 after doing some reading and finding some mathematical explanations as to how it could out dps deception. I altered mine to 0/13/28 Alternate for PvE purposes rather than a PvP benefit focused build. This build is a ton of fun and I am instantly noticing an increased damage output. Will I be getting any 6k crits anytime soon? No probably not BUT you do not need those 6k crits because you have a higher consistent base output as opposed to bigger hits with a bunch of smaller ones, and yes that is exactly what deception is. Currently, however, lightning discharge can still crit up to 5k+ over time if you play your cards right as well as force lightning. One thing a lot of people don't take into account is the fact that force accuracy is 100% base as opposed to melee 90% base. Even if you stack your acc to 100% melee your force will still be 110%. In my opinion, choose what play style fits you best. Both deception and madness/deception or madness/darkness builds are very good if you play them correctly. I got to be very good with deception spec but contrary to popular belief it is not "the one and only best dps build" for assassin. Madness turns out to be very good if you know how to play it. If you want a change of pace try this build (with a few talents able to be customized to your liking) and I think you will be surprised at the damage output. It is definitely equal if not better than deception output when using an optimal rotation with a 30 meter range to boot! However, until dps meters arrive we have no way of saying which is better; all I know is that I like the numbers I am seeing with this build a lot better.

From my experience (have downed Soa multiple times norm/hard) that 15% does nothing for me because I know how to manage force speed. I did however come up with a new build though that includes obfuscation and Resourcefulness. This build sacrifices surging charge in order to get bigger DoTs for bosses: Assassin 5/31/5 This build emphasizes lightning charge AND give you an automatic 3% crit rating while in lightning charge stance. That 3% crit rating (to both force and melee) is big, especially when stacking crit buffs. You can easily get to about 60% melee crit chance with cd's and buffs. My point wasn't to argue about Obfuscation because I know from experience that 15% in THIS game is not a worth while speed increase for sacrificing armor and DPS. By the way, I tested my character with and without Obfuscation out of stealth. I ran the same speed no matter what, with perhaps a slight slight difference with obfuscation. It was nothing to be excited about. My point is there are tons of possibilities here to increase survivability and or damage out put for sacrificing a few boxes that really aren't life changing. Like is said this is my opinion. I'm just saying not to overestimate the value just because it says 15%.

Well surprisingly enough since i couldn't see the numbers in operations I tested my build out in warzones and my average damage output has gone up every match (using the same gear). There are a lot of factors affecting this but obfuscation is definitely useless in Eternity vault right now. Your only reason to stealth is to use Force Cloak to de-aggro the boss. I haven't really tested chain chock much because it is built for low armor enemies. Chain really won't do much good on the last boss in EV, in my opinion, because he has high armor so you need the armor penetration or very high accuracy which is hard to stack with the PVE sets unless you get multiple pieces and canabalize the mods.

I actually don't notice this 15% speed out of stealth. It is either broken or doesn't impact me at all. This isn't WoW btw

Here is my new build i came up with: Alternate 7/31/3 Here is my reasoning for the way this build looks: Why did I give up Obfuscation and Overcharge saber? Well because frankly at 50 you do not really need obfuscation unless you really really care about that 15% movement speed in stealth. You can just use blackout and get the 15 level stealth increase every 45 seconds to compensate for the 3 level loss. Over Charge Saber/Lacerate reduction: Why oh why did you sacrifice this box? Are you Crazy!? Well yes and no. Quite honestly Lacerate sucks. Really badly. I do not care for it costing 30 force because I never use it. Overcharge Saber, however, is an awesome skill...when surging charge actually procs. Most of the time I do not find myself using this skill at the 1min 30s mark every single time because I am busy managing my other procs and since I like to stay in Surging Charge mode, it barely makes use of Overcharge when I use it due to the 25% proc rate on Surging Charge. For me, I can live with the 2 minute CD on overcharge saber. What did I replace with Obfuscation and Resourcefulness?? I wanted more survivability while in DPS mode without having to waste 50 force to switch to dark charge. So I picked up Insulation because, yes, the 30% armor increase does make a difference to me. I also put 1 point into Avoidance because that slight reduction on Unbreakable Will helps me a heck of a lot more than Resourcefulness. Secondly, I put 2 points into Electric execution because this way I get a permanent 6% increase on my saber charge damage. This will add up over the 2-minute cooldown while waiting for overcharge saber as well as bump that increased dmg up. Sure 10-15 points of dmg increase may not be much but over time it helps. Is this a smart move? Maybe. Maybe not. If the 6% increase proves to be worthless to you then you could also put a 2nd point in Avoidance and 1 point in Resourcefulness or 2 points in Lightning recovery to get the force speed and force shroud reduction which, in my opinion, are both a lot more useful than overcharge saber in certain combat situations. If you prefer lightning charge to surging charge you could even spend the 2 points in Crackling Charge to get a good 16% increase to your discharge. The possibilities are very interesting. My point is that I was not content with the 5/33/3 build because I feel it is not the best build since it has too many useless boxes and a number of boxes unused that are important for many reasons. Agree or disagree, I do not care. I thought I would share my ideas and hopefully it will be successful in sparking new ideas outside of the two very limiting deception builds people cling to at the moment. Until combat logs appear though, this is all speculation. Enjoy EDIT: I have put together a new build that seems to be very worthwhile for Raiding and Flashpoints: Lightning Charge 5/31/5 This build emphasizes lightning charge in order to get a 16% increased DoT as well as a permanent 3% crit increase to both force and melee while in lightning charge stance. With this build you won't have to waste time building up the Surging Charge stack to get the most damage, this way you can rely on Lightning charge crit damage and ticking up to 5-6k over time if you have the right stats/buffs.

Bioware, I love this game but the assassin raid gear looks ugly, most notably the headpiece. That head piece for the assassin sets does NOT look cool. At all. It just looks like an ugly horned garb. It doesn't fit the rest of the gear look. Please make it some cool mask Yeah? Yes there is custom gear BUT I have not seen 1 mod drop from EV, Hutt, or hard modes. I'm inclined to think T2 and T3 mod drops are not in. So what is the only option? Wear some ugly horns. Please Bioware, if anything change just the helm skin. I want to look like an assassin in raid gear.

So i was having a discussion with guildies and felt it important to start this thread. Basically the argument is that melee dps has no place in 8-man possibly even 16-man nightmare modes or even hard mode Operations. The only exception to that rule would be marauders due to blood thirst. However, I feel assassins will work seeing as they do have high burst damage with the right gear and using the correct rotations as well as the fact they can spec madness to become a hybrid dps. I feel this is an important subject because it happens in almost every MMO. Melee dps gets the boot because ranged dps is always the superior and better choice for many groups. Perhaps Bioware can be the ones to attempt to address this and finally make a change for those of us who wish to play melee dps and get into the most difficult raids. For those of you who have completed 8-man Hard and Nightmare or even 16-man, is there a place for good and well geared melee DPS? Or are they doomed to spec tank just to be useful? Thoughts?

This x100 People do not understand language which is why lawyers get away with a lot of things now a days. May = maybe = chance = not 100% guaranteed Will = yes = definitive = most likely guaranteed "May get up to 5 days" does not in any legal speak = "Will get up to 5 days"