I have to agree this madness change is amazing. It puts it over Deception in both PvE and PvP now. The healing increase and dmg buff is sooooo good.

Madness already did more DPS than deception before 1.1.2 in PvE and now it is even better for pvp and got even more damage for PvE! Why go deception? Madness seems to now cover both game spectrum very very well.

The problem here is you are only accounting for recklessness. The other shocks you get while recklessness isn't up provide an increased dps output and I'm not even focusing on pvp anyways. It isn't like you only crit shock when recklessness is used. This thread wasn't made to argue the semantics of chain shock and its usefulness anyways. @bry What do you mean "super slow mo" ? if you're saying you were killing things slow then you weren't doing it right. Madness kills groups of enemies way faster than deception.

Yeah i went and respecced to avoidance because the 3 seconds doesn't make a big difference now that I really look at it since lightning discharge lasts 18 seconds as it is and the cd on discharge is naturally 15s. The thing I really want is charge mastery + darkswell for the 3% crit and force regen. Honestly the 6% to thrash doesn't matter to me much. I don't think this is possible though without sacrificing vital talents.

I completely agree about the thrash animation and I will probably switch my build to include avoidance. The discharge doesn't seem to make much sense now that I look at it.

Yeah that is what I thought. So that dark embrace out of stealth is important to me. I like being able to freely manage my force because I can spam thrash/shock to my hearts content. Also check my edit to my post above yours.

I think my logical reasoning here is for dark charge because I have been successful using dark charge with this spec in pvp but it is minimal at best. You do bring up a good point about that. Edit: here is a good idea here with a 0/13/28 build that gives you survivability by sacrificing the discharge cd, dark embrace, and darkswell but instead giving you a permanent 10 force while keeping all the goodies. Either way this build will probably become moot after the change, unfortunately, so I will probably switch to my variation of 5/5/31 which includes more survivability. My only issue with this is that devour seems almost useless without parasitism and I feel like those 2-3 points could be spent more wisely.

Yeah you have some good points there. I'm trying to keep this build viable but it is difficult with the loss of induction. @ DarthNorik I completely agree. darkswell is hit or miss. it can either save you an extra thrash or be completely useless but I still see flaws in the full madness build.

Well I guess I could probably put less importance on blackout since it was changed from an increased force regen to only a 10 force buff but there is a still a big issue with the 5/5/31 madness build and it is that dark embrace is completely useless imo. It only grants faster regen in stealth and 6 sec after which is like nothing. It just seems silly to be making hybrids completely useless aside from darkness/madness. I'll keep saying this though, I highly doubt bioware will only be changing that 1 box. It will be several changes.

I have to say I do completely agree with you about madness but you are definitely missing the point of the hybrid as are many others. It is not just about induction. Not in the slightest. With the hybrid you gain: 1. Blackout regen which is IMO the most important skill. It makes force management amazing. 2. Maul increase and induction. These put a major buff on two abilities. 3. 30% armor with my 013/28 special build 4. reduced discharge cd which means you can keep lightning discharge ticking. I am not trying to argue over anything though. I am just trying to show hybrid madness isn't useless by the slightest and it has many perks to it. With full madness 5/5/31 spec you are not only squishier but you are also worrying about force management without blackout. For those saying this build will become useless when the induction change is implemented it is an easy fix. Go 2/11/28 or 2/11/28 alt and the problem of a useless talent is solved while still keeping the all valuable blackout.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree because 30% maul increase is valuable because it puts a burst in your sustained rotation. The build isn't really about the induction either, it is about the blackout talent. Blackout out of stealth is soo valuable. I never run out of force with this build unless I have to spam all my big moves real fast. I do agree, though, that madness is optimal but the hybrid madness just gives a ton more freedom. As of now the talent change hasn't been implemented so there is no point in trying to kill this build quite yet. I still do no believe it will be "useless" after the change is implemented. Even then, I am confident the change will be much more than just 1 lousy box and it will affect the other tress as well.

I have no idea what you are talking about because the arm pen build doesn't lower any cd's if you are talking about the basic arm penetration build. You must be talking about the arm penetration build that adds the force shroud/speed cd's. Chain shock isn't rubbish though, however I do agree the lowered cd's is more effective and useful for a lot of situations the 9% arm pen is out dps'd by chain shock if you are going for optimal dps. So it is not garbage.

^^ Exactly. There is really no use at all for alacrity unless you really want to spam lightning or use crushing darkness outside of Raze proc. It isn't worth sacrificing crit/surge/accuracy for some measly alacrity.

Actually it really won't affect it too badly because the "bugged" talent you refer to which has yet to be implemented still allows for 30% maul increase out of surging charge. The only downside is that you would lose the induction 2 stack. The way to compensate for this is just to spare your use of shock and ONLY use it when Unearthed Knowledge is about to expire. I barely use shock as it is right now because I keep getting lucky with my Raze and Unearthed Knowledge procs. When they actually implement the talent change I'm sure it will be more than just that talent in order to balance everything out but it shouldn't affect my build too much. @Kulain yeah I am considering dropping the 1% parasitism because it really doesn't help that much but I aim to keep the DoT protection because 70% of the time I die to massive DoTs and not big hits.

I love it! I wish I would have tested this build out earlier but it is simply wonderful! I was playing Deception 7/31/3 Build and it was very good when procs got lucky and when I was able to manage my cd's in a logical manner. Good build and fun for melee, although I think now I would recommend chain shock over the armor piercing build if you like deception. However, I decided to switch to Hybrid madness 0/13/28 after doing some reading and finding some mathematical explanations as to how it could out dps deception. I altered mine to 0/13/28 Alternate for PvE purposes rather than a PvP benefit focused build. This build is a ton of fun and I am instantly noticing an increased damage output. Will I be getting any 6k crits anytime soon? No probably not BUT you do not need those 6k crits because you have a higher consistent base output as opposed to bigger hits with a bunch of smaller ones, and yes that is exactly what deception is. Currently, however, lightning discharge can still crit up to 5k+ over time if you play your cards right as well as force lightning. One thing a lot of people don't take into account is the fact that force accuracy is 100% base as opposed to melee 90% base. Even if you stack your acc to 100% melee your force will still be 110%. In my opinion, choose what play style fits you best. Both deception and madness/deception or madness/darkness builds are very good if you play them correctly. I got to be very good with deception spec but contrary to popular belief it is not "the one and only best dps build" for assassin. Madness turns out to be very good if you know how to play it. If you want a change of pace try this build (with a few talents able to be customized to your liking) and I think you will be surprised at the damage output. It is definitely equal if not better than deception output when using an optimal rotation with a 30 meter range to boot! However, until dps meters arrive we have no way of saying which is better; all I know is that I like the numbers I am seeing with this build a lot better.