@Aetrus no I never go to Outlaws Den as no bolster exists in that zone. The way my gear setup is I'm using full Pve Weapon mods/hilt and matrix cube which brings my expertise down to the 1700's. Inside warzone/Ilum my expertise is 1946 which is a huge gap and why I would not fight at such a disadvantage. Most sins stack willpower instead of power which is not necessary and why I crit higher than most on physical attacks. I've dummy tested fully augmented willpower augs vs power and I noticed a difference. If you prefer having a slight increase to crit over more physical dmg thats up to you. If you originally stated the fight can go 50/50 I would have never bothered to post lol. You/Evolixe/Shinarika act like it should never be beat by deception when thats 100% false. The comment I made about spec/talents plays a part as most Deception sins never put 2 points in Insulation which in a wz/1 vs 1 boosts your survival as opposed to the minimal dmg increase in thrashing blades. My armor rating without Insulation is 2999 and Dmg Reduction 19.64. With Insulation Armor Rating is 3899 and Dmg Reduction 23.78%.

So your basing your argument on a duel tourny with 2 assassins without knowing their talent spec in a pve setting? Name a wz node that doesn't have an area to los... If you watch their duel you can see how Waka is overloading when his opponent is not even casting the HD lightning which is Bad. If you want to see a real comparison the duel should be on ilum with wz stims/adrenal and bolster which plays a factor in prolonging the fight and your dps not being able to keep up. This tourny didn't show or prove anything as its far from a wz setting. I didn't mean deception can steam roll it as the fight can sometimes be close, but when people say things that I have proven otherwise vs top dueling tank sins I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. (these duels took place with no los) The skill and reaction time of the player is the most important factor.

That was the main reason I responded to this post DarkKitten... People are telling you that your basically playing bad because you cannot win this match up when in essence you are the one with the disadvantage in this fight. Evolixe can say whatever nonsense they want but the fact is once your shroud is over you will eat our reck. crits. The Harnessed Darkness procs can be countered with Overload, Electrocute, Force Shroud, and Force Cloak. Even vs fully geared Tank sins my mauls crit for 7k+.... Your mitigation and Dps is not high enough to keep up especially below 30% HP. I don't play darkness but I can see if my friend Turrican wants to do some duels to show how the fight plays out. No promises on how quick I can pop out a vid since I been playing FFXIV 2.0. ^^;

If you are on Pot5 and would like to be embarassed send me a /tell and I will show you instead of you constantly running your mouth about things you can only achieve vs lesser mortals.

I see this comment way too much and if you are beating Full deception as dps tank sin its because the player is either bad, undergeared or both. I've been beating Darkness Dps builds 1 vs 1 since before 1.4 when it was the OP Flavor of the Year spec. With the amount of defensive talents Deception has now and easy reset on Reck. you cant out live our burst period. I have old videos and new showing me beating it in 2 vs 1 scenarios. Stop posting this garbage ty.

Ok after much more testing ( about 45 minutes worth of dummy bashing) I have some results of my Better parses using your spec with different rotations. I still didn't outdo Full Deception but it does average around 37k mark even with my gear. My Stats using your Spec in Dark Charge are: Damage 1428-1730 Bonus Dmg 824.7 Force Dmg 1280.8 Test 1: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse1part1.png.html?sort=3&o=7 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse1part2.png.html?sort=3&o=6 Test 2: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse2part1.png.html?sort=3&o=4 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse2part2.png.html?sort=3&o=5 Test 3: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse3part1.png.html?sort=3&o=3 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse3part2.png.html?sort=3&o=2 Test 4: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse4part1.png.html?sort=3&o=1 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse4part2.png.html?sort=3&o=0 Now you and Nathan pointed out all the mauls and obviously this is not going to happen in warzone setting... we are merely comparing max burst in 10 second window with 3 reck charges. (Not refreshing with Force Cloak) To Quote the late great Bruce Lee "Boards don't hit back" Same goes for dummies, including getting cc'd, defensive cd's etc which will screw your rotation. For the record I never open up on a target with Spike unless the target is below 50%. My Parses in Deception is not the rotation I use in pvp; merely to show how much more dps Full deception can do... The thing I like the most about this spec is when you break 10k on double discharge. The feeling of force starvation after completing a burst cycle with the spec is the main issue. I know instead of using extra mauls I can thrash more instead but losing dps in this 10 sec window. These tests also cant factor in Sith Executioner and Assassinate both of which Full Deception has an advantage over in both damage and energy consumption.

Sup Xethis, I found your video interesting as the double discharge in dark charge is something I haven't seen before. (Good Song choice as well) I tested it out on a dummy and didn't like having to build up energize,induction while watching my Reck. drain away. Sometimes I would get it early on and other times I just wouldn't see a proc before reck. ran out. Too inconsistent imo. The good thing about the spec is that people wouldn't expect that kind of burst coming from a Sin in Dark Charge/ on top of that its a good counter vs Sage/Sorc Dps. As far as this spec out bursting Full Deception/Surging Charge that is false< especially when you factor in energy management, armor penetration, loss in bonus dmg and Sith Executioner. I ran some random 10 second openers to compare to yours on the same warzone dummy. (My bonus damage blows yours away but again not sure what spec/rotation you were using as deception to compare your parse) The two I posted is not my highest either as I had some around 49k when my mauls crit 66% of the time which is rare to say the least< My Stats OUTSIDE of Warzone (used on dummy) Weapon Dmg 1469-1771 Crit. 20.42% Bonus Dmg 865.9 Force Dmg 1280.8 Crit Mult. 74.15% for both My Stats INSIDE of Warzone with Bolster Weapon Dmg 1527-1850 Crit. 20.58% Bonus Dmg 880.7 Force Dmg 1368.2 My Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfrfRkGbRrbdzZs.3 Site I used for Parse: http://www.torparse.com/upload Test 1: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SWTORDUMMY10.png.html?sort=3&o=0 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SWTORDUMMY11.png.html?sort=3&o=1 Test 2: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SwtorDummy20.png.html?sort=3&o=0 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SwtorDummy21.png.html?sort=3&o=3 It doesn't matter what spec you play as long as you enjoy it and can produce results. I want to see you use this spec in more 1 vs 1's and 2 vs 1's with your enemy having full CD's. Especially vs a geared Jugg/PT Tank to see how it performs.

All I can say about the vid is...about time you used Low Slash > CnD > Electrocute > Maul

Xin I don't disagree at all if you want to talk about who has far superior on USE defensive cd's but if either of those classes were taking damage outside of that our dmg reduction is above par as my spec especially since entropic is practically always on. I didn't even include entropics % to my damage reduction with the numbers I posted. Try out the spec and let me know what you think. Evolixe the spec I posted isn't t meant to be a deception tank and I'm not nerfing my dps at all. The spec has more survivability, burst and sustained then Hybrid. The ranged/aoe dmg from death field is not bad when rooted but not necessity. You don't have 9% armor pen from Charge Mastery which is adding dmg to every attack I make, your missing 6% dmg on top of that on targets under 30% from Sith Executioner, and if your calling out who used there stun breaker you can get 6% more damage on the focus target with Nerve Wracking. 6% from ALL sources. I play Deception differently then you maybe but my aim is to kill someone as quick as possible and move to the next. The 10 sec* reduction on your electrocute timer is not a bad thing but not combined with nerve wracking I dont see it worth the points. If you prefer Hybrid over Full Deception thats fine but it cannot out live it or out burst full deception. The reason I put 2 points in Insulation over Thrashing Blades is because that dmg increase is hardly noticeable. Your less of a burden on your healer and have a higher survival rate when getting hard focused. Why wouldn't you want more survival while hardly diminishing your dps?

I'm not trying to derail this thread but after reading through so many pages of garbage information you guys are feeding other sins/shadows I cannot take it anymore. I've played full Deception since the beginning and its the only spec I've ever played. I know it inside and out and these specs are all garbage to say the least. A true arena spec is Full Deception: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfrfRzGbRrbdzZf.3 You have all the Burst and all the Defensive Talents to make your survival above average. My stats with Evolixe's talents and my current gear are: 2755 armor 16.44% damage reduction 18.44% energy/kinetic dmg reductioon 12% internal/elemental dmg reduction My Spec: 3581 armor 20.37 armor damage reduction 22.37% energy/kinetic dmg reduction 12% internal/elemental reduction Thats almost 4% all around reduction excluding internal/elemental dmg and yes I notice a difference. Both specs have 30% AoE reduction from Fade talent. To say that Darkness/Dps has more survivability in arena setting then Deception is not true with all the aoe thats going on. Deception takes less dmg from the most abused aoe (Smash) then a tank spec would unless their in full tank gear. Xinika stated Deception survivability is low which is not the case at all. In 1.4 I would say hell yes but now absolutely not. I agree with Xin that Lightning Sorc can control and lock down an Assassin with ease as they do counter us. The fix to shroud to break the root helps but its not like we have that off cd all the time... If our Force Speed had root breaking built into it we would have enough to make the fight more balanced. If Phase Walk had an option where if no player is targeted to place the teleport marker in current location and/or when a player is targeted to teleport to marked player. It would make the ability not only useful for warzones but also for arena. Someone else posted this idea and I agree 100%. It gives us more options and some utility as far as being able to hard switch burst to a different target. PvE wise its good to avoid a Bosses aoe or tele'n to your healer to avoid death. I don't think we need our 51 ability to be something to increase our dmg. Hybrid specs could be useful in warzone settings but its not as deadly as full deception. Xethis actually knows what he is talking about when he compares Hybrid to Full Deception in a Arena setting or even 1 vs 1. Full Deception trumps it period. Hybrid spec your overall dps will be higher from Death Field aoe abuse in tight clusters at the end of a warzone/skirmish but your single target burst is not. Evolixe you also posted how our sustained is good from your arena numbers which I couldn't believe. I sometimes think when you post you try to troll other assassin/shadows. Your highest crit in that video you posted was around 7500 which is pretty damn low since my discharge alone does that. Our sustained damaged needs an upgrade for both pve/pvp and your dps numbers do not change that fact. I watched about 10 seconds of your Arena video... Pro Tip concerning your arena video: You do not want to start off an arena with sap on their best dps and then overload the entire group. You did nothing but waste energy and add to everyones resolve. Hell overload should rarely be used unless its to save your healer or be in a direction where its hitting ONLY the target focusing you. You gave that mara full resolve at the very beginning of the arena with full cd's. Too bad he was a fail otherwise your team would have a lot of pressure right at the start. Grats on the win though. End Rant...

Darkness in Dps gear destroying Deception of equal gear/skill? That is not even close to a possibility. The Low Slash> CnD debate... Xethis explained it the best as its situational. After Opening burst with Shock/Discharge low slash into Crushing Darkness> (If you have electrocute off cd) Main reason why I like it is to get people to blow defensive cd's and if they are dumb enough to panic mode into breaking its gg. If they aren't dumb enough to break it; still profit because your getting around 3k crit from initial cast + your maul proc. If you get cc'd/kick backed/mez'd right after your still doing damage as opposed to not doing anything. Which means your ahead in the fight and more in control. If its a fellow shadow/sin they still get hit with the initial cast before they can force shroud off the ticks which leaves them open to your electrocute. (Which will be broken but again you know whats coming) Also when opening with this method while casting Crushing your still regening force so I never find myself having force management issues. If facing a Sin/Shadow that uses shroud after CnD you counter by using deflection/shroud which reduces the chances of their low slash going through and diminishes their physical damage. Your using 2 defensive cd's but you should already be way ahead at this point. I do agree with Xinika that you don't want to fight the same way every time because its very easy to adapt and find ways to counter your initial setup. Do what fits your play style and what the situation calls for.

Evolixe: Deception in huttball is underrated and thats because people #1 don't use the all the tools the spec has and #2 has more survival then you think when playing 0 39 7. As deception you can help clear out and control the ball respawn, blow up their healers/force pullers, burst down their ball carrier, switch to dark charge to guard your ball carrier, taunt, carry the ball with Fortitude stim and still have above par survival. The only thing your really missing is Grip/Stunning someone in a fire pit...which imo takes 0 skill. Click Grip click Stun the end. Effective yes, Game Saver yes, but its all personal preference. Trying to Grip me with Force Shroud/Sprint near endzone is gg in which case I nullified one of the main reasons to play the spec. To each his own. ^^; FuriCuri: Reason I didn't overload was because I was just focusing on killing Patra since he was stunned and takes more damage during it. If I was fighting 100% serious I wouldn't be typing during low slash lol. Trying to kill me cheaply pisses me off and rest assured that I will make them regret it the rest of the WZ. Thanks for comments

I dont play Darkness or Madness ever< Never have and dont plan on it lol. I stay with the spec that fits my playstyle and is the most fun.

Thanks. I posted 2nd video just now lol. I need to delete all these damn frap vids taking up space.

Lol Sorry just hit the zoom the enlarge icon 2x.

Its been a while since I last posted a Deception vid. Enjoy Watch in HD. Next vid will be mostly me 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 2'n peeps. Video Random WZ clips Video 2 Me Solo'n

Full Deception Spec (0 39 7) Server Pot 5. Highest Crit: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/Screenshot_2013-07-10_00_39_46_645251.jpg.html Most Kills/Killing Blows: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/Screenshot_2013-06-16_16_53_44_164861.jpg.html Highest DPS: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/Screenshot_2013-06-15_10_42_38_096544.jpg.html Most Dmg in Huttball Loss lol: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/Screenshot_2013-07-02_22_05_07_491671.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2 Most Dmg in Novare: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/Screenshot_2013-07-10_01_00_10_200095.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1 Voidstar I had a game where I broke 1 mil and over 1220 dps but that print screen never happened..Too much Booze:D:

Ya I kinda went on a rant of ideas here lol. I'll do some revising thanks for the input.

For Assassin/Shadow all around Fixes: Make Technique Mastery/Charge Mastery integrated into each tree. These are both things that shouldn't cost us talent points and would improve each spec without having to waste talent points on them. Replace this Talent with > <Blood of the Sith/One with Force. Why do you ask? Simple every Tree can spec into it and it will be a DPS gain across the board. It will help with Deception/Madness spec when they are force starved etc. This is both a PvP and PvE boost. Since this Talent is moving down we will move Mental Fortitude/Shroud of Darkness into its place and increase its Total Endurance gain to 9%. Mental Fortitude/Shroud of Darkness: For each point gain 3% endurance. This will help make Darkness tree more beefier as their survival has decreased and once again a PvP and PvE boost. Now we have a Talent spot missing where Mental Fortitude/Shroud of Darkness was. Make a new Talent called Counter which increases damage dealt by 9% while Deflection is active. Only useable with Dark Charge. This again is both a PvP and PvE boost to Darkness which is far from game breaking. Make Voltaic Slash/Clairvoyant Strike/, Thrash/Double Strike cost 0 Force when below 10% force. Again this is a dps boost across the board and now we have something to keep our dps consistent in both PvP and PvE. Increase Force cost of Maul by 10. As much as I love my maul crits I dont like the spec to be about spamming the ability and it would balance out the force regen from Blood of the Sith/One with Force. Force Cloak should have Force Shroud effect built into it for the first 3 seconds. If you dont like my Counter Talent then make this into a Talent called Force Escape. For each point in it gain 1 second after Force Cloak is activated to nullify all damage effects on you. Resilience / Force Shroud needs to be 100% resist as Xinika already stated. For Deception: Low Slash should be a guaranteed attack. No chance to miss, parry, dodge etc. This CC breaks on any type of dmg once its up so ya it shouldn't miss. While target is Low slashed next attack ignores guard. I think if you fellow Sins/Shadows want to do ranked this would be one way of opening the door as this would have us make smart use of the ability and its not a spammable cd. Do I think that would be game breaking hell no. With all the aoe's, dots etc going on its very easy to miss out on the Low Slash opportunity. For Madness: Give them back their instant whirlwind and change the effect of Torment.> <Torment: Reduce the force cost of Assassinate by 2, Shock by 6 and increase the range of Crushing Darkness by 10m. For each point Assassinate force cost reduced by 1, Shock gets force cost reduced by 3 per point and range of Crushing Darkness increases by 5m per point. Things you should know about me. I only play Deception/PvP and have played it since the start of this game. Those other 2 tree's do not fit my play style. I do not care for cookie cutter specs and have always done things my own way. I'm currently spec'd 0 39 7 which is a mix of burst/survival. Happy Hunting. Spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfrfRkGbRrbdzZfb.3

Wrecking I hope your joking when you say sorc. burst is superior to deception. You obviously don't have a clue at how much burst we do. I laugh at smashers and they couldn't on their best day 3 shot me. You even stated yourself once were setup*** implying that you have to ramp up your burst with cast times included which can be interuppted. Our burst attacks are INSTANT< As far as overall dps at the end of the warzone yes Sorc/Sages usually will have higher numbers do to range/positoning and the fact that we are more inclined to node guard as sorc. are easier to blow up.

You still say you don't know how it can be done as full deception yet you are using the same exact moves and as your spec you have 10 less force + death field. If you opened the same exact way as full deception the damage does not change and while he was in a full stun with your ew proc you could have just double mauled into an assassinate to finish him. What your saying is that because you finished him with a 50 force death field which clipped the tank sin as well was the determining factor in you winning the 2vs1??? I doubt that very much so and not to mention how death field probably tickled the tank sin. Your come back is laughable at best but if you want to be a clown so be it.

It could have just as easily been done with full Deception so I'm not sure why you would make that statement. What I find even funnier throughout this thread is how people say you can see deception setup coming... Its called redirection< Learn it. Not sapping 1 was silly to begin with but even so if you started voltaic x2 on the sin and popped recklessness/overcharge saber you unload it on the Mara when the sin is popping defensives thinking he is the target. Pretty simple concept. You stated the Mara never used defensives and the Sin never used cc's so it sounded like noobs to begin with...

While I'll agree with some of your 1vs1 rotation I disagree with a few things. I don't see why you would open with spike its not worth the resolve, and when your vanishing on a full resolved opponent your giving them more time to knock you out of stealth to pressure you even more. Just start with VT x2, low slash then take your pick of maul/crushing darkness depending on proc. As the fight goes on if your getting out dps'd and in trouble you want to be able to vanish > mind trap them instantly if their stun breaker has been used which at this point it should have been. Seethe back health and your now back in control of the fight. Thats just how I do it though.... To each his own Also you said when resolve is gone you reopen with spike/low slash> crushing darkness. If your at full force and they are that ahead why not maul spam some of the force into a low slash to catch up faster and use black out while regening force back during the daze???

Foxmob when looking at your spec you have wasted points imo... You should have 2 in entropic field for the 6% dmg reduction with 3 stacks and 1 in resourcefulness to reduce the cd on overcharge saber for more burst opportunities and longer survivability. Static Cling and Magnetism are not worth putting points in when you can get that kind of dmg reduction and a shorter dps cd. As far as all this talk about Tank Spec and Madness is concerned....Deception has the best burst/single target dps bar none. In a 1vs1 it can take down anything its a matter of managing your cd's. When another assassin gets jump on you they have an advantage just like a rogue in a 1 vs 1, but its not impossible to turn the tables. cycao gave you good tips on what to look for and low slashing when they have shroud up is important although it can get dodged its extremely useful. I rarely open with spike in a 1 on 1 because the 3 cc's I would rather use before they hit full resolve is Low Slash > Electrocute and Force cloaking into Mind Snap to Seethe back HP. (Also good in the event someone else shows up to mind snap them and finish your target or exit) Its also better if your trying to escape and use electrocute> if they break it you can still low slash them into a whirlwind for easy get away. Again this is 1 vs 1 scenario.

Its not about the damage when I cast crushing darkness. I cant count how many times I had people break low slash while I was casting it just on instinct to interrupt it nvm the amount of times they think I used electrocute lol. If I'm vs a stealth class especially I use it pre-emptively to have them panic mode and blow force shroud or knock them out of stealth if they try to vanish. Its mainly a dps loss if I dont land maul before the proc ends after I land crushing darkness; which did happen vs Turrican cause I waited half a second too long for his shroud to end and I got drop kicked lol. Thanks for the Comments ^^