@Aetrus no I never go to Outlaws Den as no bolster exists in that zone. The way my gear setup is I'm using full Pve Weapon mods/hilt and matrix cube which brings my expertise down to the 1700's. Inside warzone/Ilum my expertise is 1946 which is a huge gap and why I would not fight at such a disadvantage. Most sins stack willpower instead of power which is not necessary and why I crit higher than most on physical attacks. I've dummy tested fully augmented willpower augs vs power and I noticed a difference. If you prefer having a slight increase to crit over more physical dmg thats up to you. If you originally stated the fight can go 50/50 I would have never bothered to post lol. You/Evolixe/Shinarika act like it should never be beat by deception when thats 100% false. The comment I made about spec/talents plays a part as most Deception sins never put 2 points in Insulation which in a wz/1 vs 1 boosts your survival as opposed to the minimal dmg increase in thrashing blades. My armor rating without Insulation is 2999 and Dmg Reduction 19.64. With Insulation Armor Rating is 3899 and Dmg Reduction 23.78%.

So your basing your argument on a duel tourny with 2 assassins without knowing their talent spec in a pve setting? Name a wz node that doesn't have an area to los... If you watch their duel you can see how Waka is overloading when his opponent is not even casting the HD lightning which is Bad. If you want to see a real comparison the duel should be on ilum with wz stims/adrenal and bolster which plays a factor in prolonging the fight and your dps not being able to keep up. This tourny didn't show or prove anything as its far from a wz setting. I didn't mean deception can steam roll it as the fight can sometimes be close, but when people say things that I have proven otherwise vs top dueling tank sins I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. (these duels took place with no los) The skill and reaction time of the player is the most important factor.

That was the main reason I responded to this post DarkKitten... People are telling you that your basically playing bad because you cannot win this match up when in essence you are the one with the disadvantage in this fight. Evolixe can say whatever nonsense they want but the fact is once your shroud is over you will eat our reck. crits. The Harnessed Darkness procs can be countered with Overload, Electrocute, Force Shroud, and Force Cloak. Even vs fully geared Tank sins my mauls crit for 7k+.... Your mitigation and Dps is not high enough to keep up especially below 30% HP. I don't play darkness but I can see if my friend Turrican wants to do some duels to show how the fight plays out. No promises on how quick I can pop out a vid since I been playing FFXIV 2.0. ^^;

If you are on Pot5 and would like to be embarassed send me a /tell and I will show you instead of you constantly running your mouth about things you can only achieve vs lesser mortals.

I see this comment way too much and if you are beating Full deception as dps tank sin its because the player is either bad, undergeared or both. I've been beating Darkness Dps builds 1 vs 1 since before 1.4 when it was the OP Flavor of the Year spec. With the amount of defensive talents Deception has now and easy reset on Reck. you cant out live our burst period. I have old videos and new showing me beating it in 2 vs 1 scenarios. Stop posting this garbage ty.

Ok after much more testing ( about 45 minutes worth of dummy bashing) I have some results of my Better parses using your spec with different rotations. I still didn't outdo Full Deception but it does average around 37k mark even with my gear. My Stats using your Spec in Dark Charge are: Damage 1428-1730 Bonus Dmg 824.7 Force Dmg 1280.8 Test 1: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse1part1.png.html?sort=3&o=7 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse1part2.png.html?sort=3&o=6 Test 2: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse2part1.png.html?sort=3&o=4 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse2part2.png.html?sort=3&o=5 Test 3: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse3part1.png.html?sort=3&o=3 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse3part2.png.html?sort=3&o=2 Test 4: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse4part1.png.html?sort=3&o=1 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/DMParse4part2.png.html?sort=3&o=0 Now you and Nathan pointed out all the mauls and obviously this is not going to happen in warzone setting... we are merely comparing max burst in 10 second window with 3 reck charges. (Not refreshing with Force Cloak) To Quote the late great Bruce Lee "Boards don't hit back" Same goes for dummies, including getting cc'd, defensive cd's etc which will screw your rotation. For the record I never open up on a target with Spike unless the target is below 50%. My Parses in Deception is not the rotation I use in pvp; merely to show how much more dps Full deception can do... The thing I like the most about this spec is when you break 10k on double discharge. The feeling of force starvation after completing a burst cycle with the spec is the main issue. I know instead of using extra mauls I can thrash more instead but losing dps in this 10 sec window. These tests also cant factor in Sith Executioner and Assassinate both of which Full Deception has an advantage over in both damage and energy consumption.

Sup Xethis, I found your video interesting as the double discharge in dark charge is something I haven't seen before. (Good Song choice as well) I tested it out on a dummy and didn't like having to build up energize,induction while watching my Reck. drain away. Sometimes I would get it early on and other times I just wouldn't see a proc before reck. ran out. Too inconsistent imo. The good thing about the spec is that people wouldn't expect that kind of burst coming from a Sin in Dark Charge/ on top of that its a good counter vs Sage/Sorc Dps. As far as this spec out bursting Full Deception/Surging Charge that is false< especially when you factor in energy management, armor penetration, loss in bonus dmg and Sith Executioner. I ran some random 10 second openers to compare to yours on the same warzone dummy. (My bonus damage blows yours away but again not sure what spec/rotation you were using as deception to compare your parse) The two I posted is not my highest either as I had some around 49k when my mauls crit 66% of the time which is rare to say the least< My Stats OUTSIDE of Warzone (used on dummy) Weapon Dmg 1469-1771 Crit. 20.42% Bonus Dmg 865.9 Force Dmg 1280.8 Crit Mult. 74.15% for both My Stats INSIDE of Warzone with Bolster Weapon Dmg 1527-1850 Crit. 20.58% Bonus Dmg 880.7 Force Dmg 1368.2 My Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfrfRkGbRrbdzZs.3 Site I used for Parse: http://www.torparse.com/upload Test 1: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SWTORDUMMY10.png.html?sort=3&o=0 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SWTORDUMMY11.png.html?sort=3&o=1 Test 2: http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SwtorDummy20.png.html?sort=3&o=0 http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Zurai57/media/SwtorDummy21.png.html?sort=3&o=3 It doesn't matter what spec you play as long as you enjoy it and can produce results. I want to see you use this spec in more 1 vs 1's and 2 vs 1's with your enemy having full CD's. Especially vs a geared Jugg/PT Tank to see how it performs.

All I can say about the vid is...about time you used Low Slash > CnD > Electrocute > Maul

Xin I don't disagree at all if you want to talk about who has far superior on USE defensive cd's but if either of those classes were taking damage outside of that our dmg reduction is above par as my spec especially since entropic is practically always on. I didn't even include entropics % to my damage reduction with the numbers I posted. Try out the spec and let me know what you think. Evolixe the spec I posted isn't t meant to be a deception tank and I'm not nerfing my dps at all. The spec has more survivability, burst and sustained then Hybrid. The ranged/aoe dmg from death field is not bad when rooted but not necessity. You don't have 9% armor pen from Charge Mastery which is adding dmg to every attack I make, your missing 6% dmg on top of that on targets under 30% from Sith Executioner, and if your calling out who used there stun breaker you can get 6% more damage on the focus target with Nerve Wracking. 6% from ALL sources. I play Deception differently then you maybe but my aim is to kill someone as quick as possible and move to the next. The 10 sec* reduction on your electrocute timer is not a bad thing but not combined with nerve wracking I dont see it worth the points. If you prefer Hybrid over Full Deception thats fine but it cannot out live it or out burst full deception. The reason I put 2 points in Insulation over Thrashing Blades is because that dmg increase is hardly noticeable. Your less of a burden on your healer and have a higher survival rate when getting hard focused. Why wouldn't you want more survival while hardly diminishing your dps?

I'm not trying to derail this thread but after reading through so many pages of garbage information you guys are feeding other sins/shadows I cannot take it anymore. I've played full Deception since the beginning and its the only spec I've ever played. I know it inside and out and these specs are all garbage to say the least. A true arena spec is Full Deception: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfrfRzGbRrbdzZf.3 You have all the Burst and all the Defensive Talents to make your survival above average. My stats with Evolixe's talents and my current gear are: 2755 armor 16.44% damage reduction 18.44% energy/kinetic dmg reductioon 12% internal/elemental dmg reduction My Spec: 3581 armor 20.37 armor damage reduction 22.37% energy/kinetic dmg reduction 12% internal/elemental reduction Thats almost 4% all around reduction excluding internal/elemental dmg and yes I notice a difference. Both specs have 30% AoE reduction from Fade talent. To say that Darkness/Dps has more survivability in arena setting then Deception is not true with all the aoe thats going on. Deception takes less dmg from the most abused aoe (Smash) then a tank spec would unless their in full tank gear. Xinika stated Deception survivability is low which is not the case at all. In 1.4 I would say hell yes but now absolutely not. I agree with Xin that Lightning Sorc can control and lock down an Assassin with ease as they do counter us. The fix to shroud to break the root helps but its not like we have that off cd all the time... If our Force Speed had root breaking built into it we would have enough to make the fight more balanced. If Phase Walk had an option where if no player is targeted to place the teleport marker in current location and/or when a player is targeted to teleport to marked player. It would make the ability not only useful for warzones but also for arena. Someone else posted this idea and I agree 100%. It gives us more options and some utility as far as being able to hard switch burst to a different target. PvE wise its good to avoid a Bosses aoe or tele'n to your healer to avoid death. I don't think we need our 51 ability to be something to increase our dmg. Hybrid specs could be useful in warzone settings but its not as deadly as full deception. Xethis actually knows what he is talking about when he compares Hybrid to Full Deception in a Arena setting or even 1 vs 1. Full Deception trumps it period. Hybrid spec your overall dps will be higher from Death Field aoe abuse in tight clusters at the end of a warzone/skirmish but your single target burst is not. Evolixe you also posted how our sustained is good from your arena numbers which I couldn't believe. I sometimes think when you post you try to troll other assassin/shadows. Your highest crit in that video you posted was around 7500 which is pretty damn low since my discharge alone does that. Our sustained damaged needs an upgrade for both pve/pvp and your dps numbers do not change that fact. I watched about 10 seconds of your Arena video... Pro Tip concerning your arena video: You do not want to start off an arena with sap on their best dps and then overload the entire group. You did nothing but waste energy and add to everyones resolve. Hell overload should rarely be used unless its to save your healer or be in a direction where its hitting ONLY the target focusing you. You gave that mara full resolve at the very beginning of the arena with full cd's. Too bad he was a fail otherwise your team would have a lot of pressure right at the start. Grats on the win though. End Rant...

Darkness in Dps gear destroying Deception of equal gear/skill? That is not even close to a possibility. The Low Slash> CnD debate... Xethis explained it the best as its situational. After Opening burst with Shock/Discharge low slash into Crushing Darkness> (If you have electrocute off cd) Main reason why I like it is to get people to blow defensive cd's and if they are dumb enough to panic mode into breaking its gg. If they aren't dumb enough to break it; still profit because your getting around 3k crit from initial cast + your maul proc. If you get cc'd/kick backed/mez'd right after your still doing damage as opposed to not doing anything. Which means your ahead in the fight and more in control. If its a fellow shadow/sin they still get hit with the initial cast before they can force shroud off the ticks which leaves them open to your electrocute. (Which will be broken but again you know whats coming) Also when opening with this method while casting Crushing your still regening force so I never find myself having force management issues. If facing a Sin/Shadow that uses shroud after CnD you counter by using deflection/shroud which reduces the chances of their low slash going through and diminishes their physical damage. Your using 2 defensive cd's but you should already be way ahead at this point. I do agree with Xinika that you don't want to fight the same way every time because its very easy to adapt and find ways to counter your initial setup. Do what fits your play style and what the situation calls for.

Evolixe: Deception in huttball is underrated and thats because people #1 don't use the all the tools the spec has and #2 has more survival then you think when playing 0 39 7. As deception you can help clear out and control the ball respawn, blow up their healers/force pullers, burst down their ball carrier, switch to dark charge to guard your ball carrier, taunt, carry the ball with Fortitude stim and still have above par survival. The only thing your really missing is Grip/Stunning someone in a fire pit...which imo takes 0 skill. Click Grip click Stun the end. Effective yes, Game Saver yes, but its all personal preference. Trying to Grip me with Force Shroud/Sprint near endzone is gg in which case I nullified one of the main reasons to play the spec. To each his own. ^^; FuriCuri: Reason I didn't overload was because I was just focusing on killing Patra since he was stunned and takes more damage during it. If I was fighting 100% serious I wouldn't be typing during low slash lol. Trying to kill me cheaply pisses me off and rest assured that I will make them regret it the rest of the WZ. Thanks for comments

I dont play Darkness or Madness ever< Never have and dont plan on it lol. I stay with the spec that fits my playstyle and is the most fun.

Thanks. I posted 2nd video just now lol. I need to delete all these damn frap vids taking up space.

Lol Sorry just hit the zoom the enlarge icon 2x.