So to prevent that, we remove the tools so no one could use? The store refuses to sell me some glue(legitimate use) , cos last week some kids who bought from the store were caught sniffing. Tools are good. But like most good things, it can be used badly

Yet despite the excellent post. Inb4 someone is gona come in here and say : I vote NO! It ruins community, people becomes jerk, "my friend" got kick from raid doing sub-par dps but but I'm good. If you need logs to tell you what happen in a 16m ops you aren't as good as you think you are. Logs and metrics are crutchs.

Quote: "Why do you need to see logs? Are you that bad of a player that you can't follow the events that are happening on your screen well enough to discern what happened?" So on top of doing my job tanking, watching out mechanics, now I gota see if the healer is doing his, the 2 dpsers are doing theirs ? Or as a RL, while fighting I gota watch out on 7/15 other players? Well I'm good but not THAT GOOD. I got only 2 eyes bro.

It's disruptive to the group and achieves nothing except an ego stroke for the douche bags. Achieves Nothing? I rather have douche bags + meters then no douche bags and no meters. Best senario is no douche bags + meters. You seems to have a very negative views in things. Just look in the forums, there are already jerks and douche bags in most threads, and meters don't exist here. Sigh.. Blinded and hardening of their hearts

Agree. But most anti meters always comes up with nonsensical arguments like People get kicked for doing 0.0001% less dps, NO ONE uses meters to teach, EVERYONE they knew or saw uses meters to bash others, pro-meters players wants to show EVERYONE their "leet" dps, if you arent cookie cutter spec you get kicked and all sorts of hyperbole arguement. Exaggeration is their best defence. We could bring up 101 advantages of meters, only to be met by illogical arguments like - if you need meters you need to L2p, in FP or Ops you can look around you and if you can't tell who's you arent as good as you think you are. Seriously with arguments like this if i were to roll my eyes anymore it would be 360 degree. To dislike recount is one thing, but to fervently object to this extend... One could only wonder what happen to them in that dragonslaying MMO...

I realises that no matter how logical and well written a post is - some people just dont understand... Or refuse to.

For me personally, im not worried about my performance, im more worried about the people i group with. I believe many pro meters posters feels the same to a certain degree. If you are good or even decent, you got nothing to hide. Oh i heard WAY too many: its not me, i know im good, but my friend was harass and pinpoint in groups bla bla bla.. Its always a friend eh ? "oh but its a game, its about having fun" - maybe its fun for you to wipe all night not knowing what went wrong. But for me and many others, its about challenging, about identifying what went wrong. Believe me you are better off with solid facts on hand then having everyone wonder what happen and accussations start flying(not saying it will surely happen) Just because you dont support our playstyle you wish to have these useful tools taken from the hands of people who wants them. Ps: dont tell me personal combat logs are on the way. When im in a GROUP with YOU, what you do becomes my business and vice versa.

The mentality and arguements of those anti combat logs (NOT recount) are pretty disturbing and nonsensical to say the least. Imho

Tools don't kill communities, players do. Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available. If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player. Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be. Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight? Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them. I understand the concerns of many anti-recount posters and their valid arguements.Sometimes in a fight, where i have to use my interupts, throwing a shield or off healing to prevent death of a team-mate, And whenever we seem to do some of these non dps enhancing talents, is when some idiot spams recount and tries to tell us how noobish and suckish we are when he just stood there and never stopped doing his maximum dps rotation. Recount is a good thing. But like most goodthings, it can be used badly. I vote yes.

Its a lost cause. This game has lost the spirit of competition.

yea agree. i can imagine these haters are those kind of baddies i constantly kick in my raids and those bench warmers in my guild raid. they suffered enough in wow. now let them be in swtor lmao

The real butthurt comes when we have meters. I enjoy insulting baddies and then kicking them

Tools don't kill communities, players do. Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available. If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player. Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be. Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight? Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them. To those strongly oppose to having combat logs - you know what kind of caliber player you are.

Yea i agreed world events would be a great addition. Almost everything is instanced currently. But i could imagine the kind of lag. Effectively turning what would be a great event to a slideshow, not only to those participating the event, but even to those questing in that area or region. Dont get me wrong im not against the idea, i think honestly think its great.

You along with a few others , understood the kind of situation we are refering to. The intense hardmodes progression raids where everyone is too focus for idle chat. Ofcos we do have awesome raid chats during regular raiding, but apparantly these bashers never reach that level of raiding. Ps: in b4 , we dont need 2 jobs. (fyi raiding at such level is fun for some)

I raid with similar skilled caliber players.

Agreed. In hardmodes progression raids (not on farm yet) Usually only the raidleader/MT speaks or callout in vent. Bres, innervate or other misc stuff are done thru marco text. Apparently too many "hardcore-turned casuals" here have no idea what their talking about. Probably bench warmers during wow days

You try to read and comprehend. Failed

why does setting the bar too high bothers you then? Since your so casual as you claim to be, im sure you"ll be doing the "easy modes" if you do raid. Let them bang their heads against a brick wall if thats what they want. Why is it bothering you? How many guilds/raider leaders you know just gave up becasue the end game content is too lacking/easy atm? Well quite a number i read from General disc and ops forum

There was a thread in General Disc forum, a guy simply asking : Will there be Arena-like wow 2v2 3v3 5v5 added in the game. and a slew of wow / hardcore / raiders / pvpers / non-casuals Haters raining down on him. Saying this is not wow, doors over there ---> , if u wana play wow go back to wow, no we dont need ppl like you, we got a life, trying to excel or being good in video game = hardcore bla bla bla .. the list goes on. I find arrogant bads (who seem to be happy that this game is easy and bad) to be far more insufferable than arrogant elitists. - Boxcar

No offence but you sound like those rejects in my guild. Low dpser, poor awareness, bad rotation, doing lesser dps then similar geared or even lesser geared guildies. And yes during progression raids, vent is neccessary. Not to speak but at least listen. You cab play however bad you want, you can equip strength gear on your sorc. Or willpower for your bounty hunter, but why stop us for asking devs for what the hardcores want? I sense much insecurity in the casuals, like giving the hardcores challenging content would take something away from the casuals.

No offence but you sound like those rejects in my guild. Low dpser, poor awareness, bad rotation, doing lesser dps then similar geared or even lesser geared guildies. And yes during progression raids, vent is neccessary. Not to speak but at least listen. Anyone whos done his fair share of successful raiding knows this. Watch youtube for fights, rotation/specs and stuffs. Again no offence, but you jolly well know where you stand in your previous MMO. From your post, you are probably not someone i would like to raid with in swtor. Just like RL society, the rich mingle among themselves and the poor with the poor. We maybe playin the same game but we live in "diff worlds" within the game. So whats bothering you? Ps: not saying casual/hardcores is rich/poor You cab play however bad you want, you can equip strength gear on your sorc. Or willpower for your bounty hunter, but why stop us for asking devs for what the hardcores want? I sense much insecurity in the casuals, like giving the hardcores challenging content would take something away from the casuals.

They associate any word containing - Want harder content Hardcore raiders Too easy Elitest Combat parse To Jerks World of warcraft No lifers Better gear Mom' basement Rotation Bragging rights Min/maxing Im better then you attitude In no particular order. The list goes on but im kinda busy now.

Yea. Epeen is like the word undead to them. And they casuals - the scarlet crusade. Ravage by the undead during the third war, the scarlet crusades zealots fervently hunt down every one deemed hardcore/elitest. If you are not casual, you are hardcore. If you ask to have harder content, you are hardcore, if you ask for combat parse, you are hardcore. If you play more then me, you are hardcore. "We dont need ppl like you in this game" Who are you? Are you BW's employee or shareholder? My $15 goes to them not you. YOU are a guest, just like me. You dont chase someone out when its not your home. "This is not the MMO you are looking for" Only the weak minded falls to jedi mind tricks. Im a sith, try that on a bounty hunter or imp agent.

It seems to me that those "self proclaimed casual" from the other MMO banded together, united putting up strong resistance vs the hardcores or any logic for that matter. Like the scarlet crusade, a group of maddend zealots so dedicated in ridding "the experience" they had with the hardcore raiders in the other MMO. Ruled more by emotions in thier arguement then logic.