[@Mobius too] This is exactly the point I've been trying to make from the start. PVP is always situational - even down to the 1v1 battles that you may get into. Players need to be able to adapt quickly based on their opponents strategy, and speaking in absolute terms ("Operatives primary function is DPS" / "Never save a TA when you can hit Laceration instead") is dangerous information to be giving people who lack the experience to realise that you might just be trying to make a point rather than actually advocating blowing every TA on Laceration as soon as it procs. The other (and more important) point is that we won't have to put up with 4+ random zombies messing up our strategies for much longer. As a support class we will probably benefit more than most others from being in a team which practices and executes a variety of strategies based on their group comp and player strengths / weaknesses. On my server the population is already small enough that even though I solo queue I am often in a group with 4+ "regulars" who already know each-others strengths, weaknesses and preferred roles. We've already devised some basic strategies and switch them out / refine them regularly based on who's in the group or if the Pub's throw something new at us - and that's just through the Ops chat during play. In my opinion, Operative is one of the most diverse classes in terms of picking a role (or switching between roles) in PVP. We are simply the best class in the game at controlling the field of play, we should be practicing and improving on all aspects of play NOW - even with 4+ zombies on the team - so we're prepared for the full pre-mades of 1.3. Just dishing out damage (although it is often required) is not enough - any Marauder with half a brain can do that role just as well as we can.

Operatives and Snipers are both great in PVP (for DPS or for healing if you go Operative) - you just have to learn how to use them effectively. There is plenty of information on these forums to get you started.

Math is never useless - although I did mention that this particular math is an over simplification of reality. The thing is, a lot of people seem to think that Slip Away is a weaker option than Chem-resistant Inlays, and this is simply not true. Getting off a 4s stun on just 1 of your attackers will add more to your effective health than the 4% damage reduction. This is a simple mathematical fact. Your effective health pool needs to be a whopping 150 000hp in order to recover the 6000 damage saved by a 4 second stun. Of course, if you have Deb available and Chem-resistant inlays then the 4% reduction puts you at a fairly big advantage. Learning how to use the resolve system to your advantage is core to playing an Operative well in PVP. Unless you've managed to max the resolve on all of your potential targets at the same time, this statement is invalid. I use my Deb very nearly on CD when I'm out of stealth (not always on people actually attacking me though, which is the main reason why this little math exercise is just for fun rather than a serious analysis). Yes, and PVP is not a static beast where only one strategy / play-style is "correct". The two talents are different, and individuals will get different mileage out of each. Personally, I prefer the added control of the reduced Deb cooldown precisely because in PuG matches it means I'm better able to contribute to the team with less reliance on a support healer. But that is just me - I don't criticise those who prefer the 10/31/0 spec because I know that it is also very strong and probably suits their style better. I just get annoyed when people make blanket statements about the tools in our arsenal without actually thinking through the ways in which those tools might be used by others.

Ok good, you had me worried there I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. Solo-capping a turret will result in: Our team holding 2 turrets = win Opponents leaving mid to re-cap their turret, so mid is less defended (= win in most instances) That said though, the key thing as always is communication. I never run off and try a solo-cap without letting people know that I'm going to try it. This is important because if just 1 un-stealthed person follows me they will usually bring a couple extra defenders with them, and more importantly because if I do manage the cap the team needs to be ready to leave mid to defend both side turrets. If the cap fails, at a minimum I will usually draw 2 - 3 opponents away from mid to help on defence for a few minutes, and that also gives the team at mid an advantage. Of course, there are times when solo-capping just fails outright, and in those instances it's best to cut your losses and get back to mid ASAP to fight with the rest of the team, but to disregard solo-capping as a strategy seriously limits your options if your team is simply outmatched by your opponents in the main melee brawl. You admit this in your Voidstar example - all I am saying is that it should not only be a fallback strategy, it is a trick up your team's sleeve that will help prevent you from being predictable. The fastest Voidstar games that I've been in have gone like this: Whole team goes right/left, except myself an 1 other stealth (usually an Assassin) Team makes as much "noise" as possible on their door - target switching, AoE'ing and CC'ing to keep people's attention, but not necessarily trying to force any kills Usually this results in a single defender at the off-side door. This defender gets slept just as the other stealther starts capping the door. They now have 2 options: blow their stun break and get FB / re-slept which gives more than enough time for the cap; or wait it out and hope they can make the last-second interrupt. In the meantime, I can keep an eye out for anyone coming to assist from the other door (usually they don't make it in time), and FB / root / Deb them before they can interrupt. Assuming a successful plant, the team switches into full slow mode - root / mez / slow / stun as the door blows, while at the same time Mara speed boosting and Assassin sprinting ahead results in a ~5 second head-start on the opposing team. It is impossible for them to recover from that unless they get killed and respawn ahead of us. We have capped the final objective in under 2 mins using this strategy, and there are multiple variations depending on your opponents tactics. Again, I'm not saying that you should do this every time, but it can be a game changer when executed correctly - even in PuG's with just a few sentences typed in the Ops chat. I wanted to come back to this one last, because this is an area where we have a fairly big disagreement. At the moment, if you're solo-queueing, I agree that the strategic use of Sleep and Flashbang are severely limited by your brainless teammates who think that a bunch of people standing mez'd next to an objective you're trying to cap is a fantastic opportunity to unload some AoE damage ... At the moment we need to be much more careful with these tools - draw 1 or 2 opponents out of the main battle, and FB them away from those who would usually just break it. If you can get them out of LoS of their healer, all the better since you've bought a few extra seconds to burst down the healer before they can recover. Once full pre-mades are introduced, these abilities will get even stronger. A 6 - 8 second mez on 5 opponents will win you any objective if timed and co-ordinated with the rest of your team. As for solo defending, this is not a role that "any Joe Shmo" can do for exactly the reason why Operatives are effective at solo-capping. Stealth. A solo defender is an Operative's dream (and probably an Assassin as well), because it means unless he has excellent gear, and is skilled at using that gear, you will probably get the cap before reinforcements can arrive. A stealth defender doesn't have this problem because the attacker needs to leave stealth in order to get the cap, giving you the advantage rather than them. You can then just sleep - sleep - burst - vanish - sleep them until your backup arrives. Even if a non-stealth attacker goes for the node, Joe is still at a disadvantage because he doesn't know whether there's a stealther with the non-stealth. He can call incoming, but he might still be burst down and the node lost before help arrives. Again, as a stealth defender the advantage is with you. You can easily control the non-stealth attacker, and if a stealth attacker pops up when you do you can still FB / Deb / root / vanish / etc to keep them both occupied until help arrives.

Don't let the QQ of a few people who aren't able to adapt to the ever-changing environment of MMO class balancing go to your head ... Operatives are just fine in lvl 50 PVP once they are appropriately geared. The gearing process is painful (just as it is on any AC), but you can prepare for it from lvl 40 - 50 by saving up both Rated and normal WZ commendations to the cap. That way you can either buy a bunch of BM items (by converting your Rated commendations back into normal commendations as you spend them), or a couple BM items and some WH accessories to go along with your Recruit gear when you hit 50.

Here is some simple logisitcal[sic] mathematics for you for a 15 min Warzone: Untalented Debilitate: 900 / 45 = 20 uses during the match Talented Debilitate: 900 / 30 = 30 uses during the match Damage prevented by 4s stun (going to use your guestimate math here)*: 1500 * 4 = 6000 damage per stun Talented - Untalented: (30 * 6000) - (20 * 6000) = 60000 extra damage prevented. * 1500 DPS may be considered high by some, but since most PVP fights involve people using all their biggest hitting abilities to try and burst down their opponents I suspect it's not far off what you see in your typical 1v1. Given my health pool of roughly 17000hp, I would need to die 60000 / (17000 * 0.04) = 88.2 times in the match to have saved the same amount of health through Chem-resistant Inlays. My average WZ death rate is in the region of 8 deaths per match (usually lower, but if I'm against people that know me I get focussed a lot), the break-even point for this calculation would be 136 DPS. That means that your opponent would need to be doing just 137 DPS for Slip Away to pull ahead of Chem-resistant Inlays in terms of damage reduction. There is a lot wrong with this very simplistic analysis - not the least of which is that it ignores all incoming healing, which I believe increase the value of Chem-resistant Inlays somewhat - but it also completely ignores the real benefit of Slip Away, which is in giving you greater control over the battlefield. My biggest issue with Chem-resistant Inlays is that it is probably (napkin math warning) roughly half as effective as Revitalizers, yet costs double the number of points. Yes, it is passive so you have it all the time as opposed to only while you have Stims up, but I don't believe this makes up the difference. The real benefits of spec'ing into the Med tree are the TA and heal boost talents, for the most part Chem-resistant Inlays is just the next best option for your remaining points.

This is exactly the kind of 1-dimensional thinking that I believe is responsible for the majority of the Operative QQ and our resulting negative image. The thing is, I'm fairly sure from other posts you've made on the forums that you are actually fairly good at PVP and make a valuable contribution to your team with all your DoT'ing madness - this post just makes me think that you're pigeon-holing yourself into that single role, which is really not playing to the strengths of our class. I've suggested on this forum before (a few months back now) that Concealment Operatives (but it applies to all Operatives really - even Medics in a co-ordinated team) should youtube "Reckful Warglaives". You'll find a bunch of videos made by Reckful - the top rogue in WoW PVP for a number of years. In the videos he is using lvl 70 gear in lvl 85 PVP arena's, and they were made specifically to show that effective control is more important in high-end PVP than the ability to damage / kill your opponents. Another good example is the video posted here by Wohast (heal-concealment hybrid specifically built for solo-defending). Operatives are one of the best classes in the game for solo-defending a node when you know what you're doing, and this frees the rest of the team to focus on the contested node. If you choose or are given this role you'll be spending much of the match in stealth, and you'll be lucky to get 2 / 3 kills in the end, however the job you performed is no less essential than that of the Marauder with 50 kills under his belt at the end from the centre melee.

There is an excellent resolve guide stickied in the PVP forum. As a minimum, I would suggest linking to it. I would probably also include a breakdown of which of our abilities cause resolve (and how much), and how to get the most out of your opponents resolve bar. You also need to look at it the other way around - how to use your own resolve and when to use your stun breaker. There's also an excellent Huttball guide stickied on the forums. It's fairly basic, but covers most of the strategies you'll see in your average match. You really need to read this one - although even this doesn't emphasise the cost of killing opponents at the wrong time strongly enough imo. I PuG a lot and I can't tell you the number of times myself or a team mate has been about to cross the line only to get ganked by 3+ opponents coming out the respawn area because some noobs were enjoying a their mini ego-games elsewhere on the map. You mention strategic deaths, but not the flip side of this: strategically NOT killing anything. The fastest Huttball matches will have very few deaths/kills when done right. In general, your Huttball summary wasn't too bad (other than the killing people stuff - you need to know when to kill), but could do with a bit more depth. The same approach should be taken with all the WZ's. You need to discuss (or link to) the common tactics, and how Operatives can use their tool-kit to help / hinder each. However, as Bazz was saying, the best PVP'ers are ones that can see the bigger picture and adapt in a way their opponent doesn't anticipate. I recently watched a PVP video where a guy was lying dead in their opponent's end-zone in Huttball, and his team mates were throwing him a combat res just in time to catch a pass ... genius. Sure, it's a gimmick that will probably only work a few times, but thinking outside the box like this will win you matches. With full pre-made matches around the corner, you need to evaluate the various roles that you can fill in a co-ordinated team, not just the solo-kill strategies that win you lots of medals in PuG matches. I know Bazz doesn't like the term "role" because it implies you're stuck doing one thing and not adapting to the match, but in a co-ordinated (VOIP'd) team, your "role" will most likely change multiple times during the match, and as an Operative you need to be able to adapt to each.

You may give lip-service to the idea of being flexible in PVP, but in your response to my post on holding 1 TA you spoke in absolute terms, giving (quite frankly) bad advice to players who may come here seeking to improve. Forgive me if my tone was overly harsh, maybe I should have included a "(no offence)". My response was specifically addressing your post stating: The majority of the time this is not true. ToR PVP is all about objective play, and often to do that well you need to NOT kill anything. Operatives are the master of control (single and multi-target), and you spend almost no time in your guide addressing this. The word "resolve" appears in your guide only once - this is a fairly big indication (in my opinion - no offence intended) that using an Operative's control abilities outside of the limited number of 1v1 encounters you have in a match is not your strong point. You also spend very little time discussing stealth - in relation to objective play. Certainly nothing that hasn't been mentioned in numerous other PVP threads on this forum (maybe there's just nothing new to say?) I didn't say I haven't had that experience ... particularly in sub-50 WZ's, but once you have some gear you can burst down lvl 50's almost as well as before. The point is that burst-nuking people is not an Operative's primary role. We are a control class. But I suppose you thought that Sub Rogues in WoW were burst-nuker's too My response was addressing your statement that an Operative's role in a WZ is to kill opponents. Specifically: This statement is simply not true in Huttball and Voidstar, and is occasionally not true in Civil War / Coast as well. It is often more effective to control / kite / annoy / distract your opponents than to kill them outright. I read your original post, but didn't reply specifically because I didn't want to point out the simple shortcomings that have been discussed multiple times in other threads on this forum. You will notice that in my first response in this thread I was simply pointing out that Acid Blade has always worked to proc TA's for me - you are the one who chose to troll my very disclaimered statement on an opening rotation. Don't get me wrong, there is some good info in your post as well - probably very useful to people in the sub-50 bracket, or starting out in PVP - but there are too many absolutes, and not enough discussion of some of the core strengths of the class in my opinion (no offence).

Only if you fail to acknowledge that Lethality Ops (as the guy before you mentioned) is a melee class, just the same as Concealment Ops. Backstab is still one of your biggest hitters (better DPE than Cull iirc), so you still have the same range / positional requirements - the only difference is you can do higher damage during mobile phases with Corrosive Grenade (30m), and Cull / WB / buffed Overload Shot (10m) even though Overload Shot is still terrible Lethality Sniper's have a 9s cooldown on Cull, which is technically worse than Operatives which can use Shiv for the required TA every 6 seconds. This is off-set by the higher energy requirement (Shiv + Cull = 34e vs Sniper Cull = 25e). As mentioned, Operatives also have the option of specing into the med tree to get TA's through healing or through HoT's (although the hybrid spec is more for PVP as you lose quite a lot of damage from the top tier Lethality talents). TL;DR: The two are different. Pick Sniper if you want ranged DPS, and pick Operative if you want an in-your-face, melee stealth class. Combined with Assassin I would recommend Operative for the off-heals and 2xStealth which would make levelling a breeze (you can bypass trash and head straight for objectives, making almost every heroic quest solo/2-man'able).

Not really ... I tend to hit Stim Boost at the end of a fight rather than the start in PVP. It is rare that I go 45s without engaging my next opponent so SB is usually up from my last kill already. PVP is also much more burst>regen>burst than PVE where it's essential to keep up SB. In PVP I spend quite a lot of time moving in and out of melee range, and use RS on every free GCD which generally keeps my energy high enough that I'm prepared for the burst. Generally the only time I need to take a glance at my energy bar is after I fire off a OrbS>EP>AB+HS combo which is hella expensive. Finally, due to the nature of the fight, you'll also tend to have AP available more often when you need it - so there's a lower penalty to bursting. For someone trying to write a PVP guide, you show a surprising lack of flexibility in your thinking. PVP is a fluid game, and unless you're still in the sub-50 bracket, or WAY out gear most of your opponents, you are not going to burst anyone (except possibly bad Sorc's / Snipers) down this way. You should assume that every fight will be 20 - 35 seconds, and that your opponent will get help at some point. If that doesn't come to pass, THEN blow your damage boost and/or energy. I like to think of that spare TA as an additional cooldown. I can use it for more energy (SB), for a fast heal (KInf), or for some burst (Lac). Like all cooldowns, I only use it when I know that it's safe to do so. Remember, if you use up all your TA's at the start of the fight it will take you ~12 seconds (unless you can Vanish+HS) to re-gain that 1 TA lead. DPS Operative's main strengths are (in order)*: 1) Stealth 2) Control 3) Burst damage 4) Heals If you are playing your DPS operative as a solo-kill hero you are doing it wrong and will have a very hard time come 1.3 and rated / full pre-made matches. * Note: This is my opinion based on many hours of Concealment PVP. YMMV I use all of the tools in my arsenal .. I have a whopping 32 key / mouse binds that I use regularly (more if you count the cover bar). The trick is to know when to use them. Enough on this TA debate though ... I can see how you would think it is useless if you're only focussed on the 2% damage boost and assuming that all fights will be over in <30s. Again, for someone trying to write a PVP guide, you show a surprising lack of understanding of playing to the Objectives in ToR PVP. In Voidstar, you almost never want to kill defending team members once you're past the first door. Rather slow / distract them to give your team a head start on the next ones. In Huttball, you don't want to kill people while your ball carrier is nearing their goal-line .. they could respawn and get the kill just as (s)he's about to score! In Civil War / Coast, it's better to stay alive yourself and harass their base, forcing them to keep 2+ players in defence, than to burst down 1 and then get ganked by the other. If you're doing well, you can keep 3+ players chasing you for 20+ seconds which gives your team a huge advantage on the contested node. But as I said, PVP is not a "do this and you'll win" game ... you need to be able to think on your feet and to react to your opponents actions / tactics. I would say rather keep the 2% extra (not sure why you put that in quotes ... it's not hypothetical) damage, and more importantly the TA, and use it as you see fit once you've had the chance to read the fight.

Lose Imperial Brew - it's 3 points for a buff to a DoT that you probably won't use that much. If you're not getting Acid Blade it's not really worth it over the other possible options. Personally I would probably go for Revitalizers + Pin Down (which is awesome in PVP) Also ignore that other guys advice on Chem-resistant Inlays .. it's an amazing PVP talent.

You should stop trying to do math. It's 50% chance to proc every time you hit the button - which means you need on average 2 Shiv's for every proc (i.e. 12s since Shiv is on a 6s cooldown). Only 2 Lacerations are ineligible after each proc: Shiv>Lac(proc)>Lac(ineligible)>filler>Shiv>Lac (ineligible)>filler>filler>Shiv>Lac(eligible) If you miss the 1st eligible chance, you should get the next one at 18s - getting 1 proc in 24s is just extremely bad RNG.

Damage is never based on your off-hand knife. The knife is just a stat stick. Damage is based off your tech power.

Mine always worked with AB on the target. In PVP HS > Shiv > Lac > Lac will almost always proc you the TA that you need to maintain the 2% damage buff, but as Bazz said, you shouldn't hit the 2nd Lacerate unless the first procs in most* situations. That's not to say that you should always open with HS > Shiv > Lac > Lac ... * I sometimes blow my last TA on Lac - it's highly situational whether to keep or to use it - but at the start of a fight it's almost always better to keep it.

Fight DPS varies a lot based on the fight mechanics, but in a standard tank'n'spank fight, 950 - 1000 DPS is roughly what I would expect to get in Tionese gear. This thread is full of information on DPS and rotations. If you ignore all the usual QQ cry-babies there's an ability DPE breakdown on pg 4, and some excellent info from page 10 - 13.

If you want to go Hybrid, go the other way (Healing up to Surgical Probe with Surgical Precision). Concealment gets 15 - 20% of its damage from Acid Blade, so if you're not going to go high enough to pick that up then you're better off getting more healing/survivability because you're not going to nuke down anything. Also, you should always, always, always use Corrosive Dart against heavy armoured opponents.* * Well, unless you're setting up for a Flashbang

This was supposed to have been fixed with yesterday's patch.

It doesn't work on players. Neither does Headshot. Every AC has a similar ability that is only useful for solo/levelling - personally I don't bother binding them.

The 2pc Field Tech PVP bonus is waa<insert a few more "a"'s here>ay better.

For HM's I tend to keep Probe up on all 4 of us during trash, but it is very boring ... cycle probe + 6/7 GCD's to throw out SP's or DPS before you need to cycle probe again (yawn). For boss fights it depends on the damage ... I tend to keep it up on the tank and use SP and Nano to top up the DPS when required.

Aren't those names the wrong way around?

I'm assuming you're talking about heal spec's if they're running and looking for backup? You need to dig deeper into your bag-of-tricks to kill Operative healers. They are very good at kiting when played well, so keep them slowed and use whatever ranged abilities you have while out of melee range. We're only immune to Charge if we're in cover (i.e. standing still), not while actually running. And finally if you manage to get us to 30% health we become virtually un-killable to a single opponent. So save your stuns for the sub-30% race, you will need them!

My Operative is Biochem. The re-usable medpacks, Stims and Adrenals are amazing for levelling - although the 1.2 change to Medpacks (can only be used once in a fight) made them slightly less useful. My Bounty Hunter levelled as Cybertech, and being able to make your own mods + armorings is also really strong, but it's fairly cheap to keep your gear upgraded through commendation vendors on each planet anyway. I almost never buy/sell stuff on the GTN though - if you're the type of person who likes to have lots of credits to play the market then Slicing + Salvaging + Bio-analysis will bring in LOTS of credits. EDIT: Oh, I forgot to say when you get Laceration. It's our Tier 3 Concealment tree ability, so it requires 11 points in the Concealment tree (min level requirement is 20). Usable abilities (rather than passive increases) get a green border in the talent tree rather than a black one. All specs of all Advanced Classes get their first "signature" ability at this level in their tree, and another at the top of the tree (lvl 40 if you haven't put points into any other trees). Some get more than just 2 (e.g. Cull in Lethality tree and Surgical Probe in Med tree).

Operatives are fine in PVE, and I know for those who enjoy the Sniper AC it can be very strong as well. I'm quite heavily biased towards the more sneaky, in-your-face, low build-up time style of the Operative, and this might be the reason why I kill faster with it (I levelled my Sorc healer first and was pretty bored of spamming ranged attacks while my companion tanked). I do think that once you get Laceration in the Concealment tree, you can murder-train groups of normal mobs faster than any other class in the game (except possibly BH when DfA is up .. and my Smash Jugg is still only lvl 18) because of TA death-procs.