Force leap back? They just walk back, you have an animation to finish and a 12 sec snare on you. A 2 sec 50% snare on a 3 sec channel? At best you can cancel it (losing a 15 sec CD ability and likely a CoF proc) and walk slowly away for 12 secs as they slowly walk towards you for 2, then are back to full speed. Cryo aswell? That's 2 KBs and a stun, hello full resolve, time to trinket. Now the option of someone coming over to help you out with a stun is pretty much out of the window too. Incidentally, when you concussion charge with leap on CD, they will force camo and run back faster than you can run away.You are a dead man in every scenario you could come up with against a semi-competent mara, let alone a good one.

Heavy armour is what 7% extra mitigation, excluding internal/elemental damage and anything with decent ArP? It really doesnt make as much difference as some of you think.

And yet my freaking melee move where I hit someone with the butt of my gun costs me 2 of my 12 ammo....

Plus of course we are all being pushed towards levelling up more toons by the legacy system. Multiple toons each = multiple crew skills each = no need to buy stuff from the AH. And anything I might need that I dont have the crew skill for is easily covered by guildmates who dont charge *shrug*

Main heal is a 2.5 sec cast with no pushback or interrupt protection and costs 25% of my maxium resources each time. Averages about 2.2-2.5k depending on crit %. No CD Other heal is a 1.5 sec cast, 16.6% of max resources. Averages 1800-ish hps. 12 sec CD. The gravy is cold and lumpy I'm afraid.

Just so you know....ranged do actually shoot at other ranged. We aren't constantly just sitting back focused on killing melee. In fact, I mostly shoot at ranged because they are squishier and unlikely to disappear/go invulnerable/suddenly leap across the map and out of range/los leaving me with no ammo and nothing to show for it. Plus ofc, shooting at melee is like poking the bear. Draw attention to yourself and one will hop over and I will do the treacle-walk (kiting lol) while getting the **** kicked out of me leading to some rapid glass-door face tanking. As for trading utility - I'll trade my 'snare', both healing abilities and buildable 5% mitigation talent for Force Camo. 4 abilities for 1, you can't say fairer than that! Deal?!?

Yes, I didnt mean to imply that the Sent/Mara healing is as good as burst healing or targetted on-call healing, as it's clearly not. My point was more that even tho it's not as good (in any way) as proper dedicated healing by a proper healing spec, it's much better than the healing (dedicated/burst/passive whatever) of an AC that is supposed to count off-healing as one of its big utility perks. The commando cleanse is excellent (mostly) for sure. The 2 healing skills? I'll trade you them for almost anything (a root, a snare, an interrupt, a nice defensive CD etc) as I almost never use them.

A marauder I played a lot against this weekend was regularly topping 500K damage. This (I guess) is fine for a well geared DPS class. However, when doing 500k damage, he/she was also popping about 125K healing. Ignoring that this AC hard-counters my commando DPS when fighting, 125K healing??? To do 125K healing I would have to cast roughly 50 medical probes. 50 x 2.5 secs is 125 secs or 2 minutes of spam casting heals, assuming I get zero pushback on any of them. 50 x 3 ammo is 150 ammo needed. That's quite a bit of regen I'd have to wait for. So basically, no chance to do even close to that amount of healing while maintaining any sort of DPS at all. Yet, I'm supposed to be an AC where having off-healing is one of my big perks and sent/maras are "pure DPS classes"? To quote the Chewbacca defense......that does not make sense!!

You won 3-2 in huttball despite all that amazing damage. How did you not romp that? No opposing leapers, just healers. Rateds wont look like that Im afraid.

The problem with the Accuracy--> armour pen change is that the big benefit you get from AP is shooting at high armour targets, which are often those with defence stats (or commandos). White damage + less accuracy = more parried/dodged/whatever attacks. I have no doubt that overall it's a beneficial change, just not that amazing. I understand that overall we got some buffs, but we got buffs to things I didnt really have a problem with (damage/ammo regen) and we got nothing for the things that I personally consider are the main issues with this AC. The balancing for PvP without overpowering PvE point is a good one, but that's what utility buffs are for. Would being able to jet-away every minute or 90 secs really break PvE? I know that sort of thing is more development work than changing a couple of numbers and swapping the odd talent around, but that's what devs get paid for ;-)

I don't think the 7% heal you get from Kolto Recharge does either

I was looking forward to this patch because of:- Excitement turns to despair as I read:- •Cell Charger has been redesigned. While Armor-Piercing Cell is active, there is a 50% chance per point to generate 1 Energy Cell every 6 seconds. •Charged Barrel and Gravity Surge have swapped positions in the Skill Tree. Charged Barrel now requires Grav Round and Gravity Surge now requires Charged Barrel. •Gravity Surge now additionally grants an extra stack of Charged Barrel and Charged Barrier, if applicable, with each Grav Round fired. •Heavy Trooper now increases healing received by 1% per point (down from 3%). Other than the 'streaky resource management' blah blah, how do the changes in any way:- 1) Improve the gameply? 2) Improve the quality of life? 3) Address the concerns of the community? The gameplay is still the same. The inability to remove melee from us is still the same. We still have no interrupt and no root. Our snares are tied to other abilities that have CDs (and are still awful). We still have no interrupt protection and no escape mechanism that isnt instantly counterable by an opposing ability with a shorter CD. Our off-heals are still not worth the cast-time, pushback or resource cost (i would gladly swap off-healing ability for something I might actually use...ever). These are almost purely PvE tweaks. If the overall intention is to leave this spec as probably the worst PvP spec and make it PvE only, please put something in a description somewhere stating this fact and we can stop stubbornly sticking with it in the vain hope of getting some sort of help in dealing with constant melee pressure and lack of movement/escape opportunities. I can see ZERO reason to pick a DPS Commando over either a Assault VG or Gunslinger. It is just frustrating to wait from promised "Quality-of-life" changes only to see minor changes to stuff we didn't really have a problem with to begin with, and nothing addressing the glaring issues playing this spec in PvP. If any BW employee reads this, thanks for your time.

Haha imagine vs an 8-sniper team in huttball, 4 in cover on each ramp round mid. "Go get the ball!" "No frikken way!!! YOU go get the ball!"

The game should have seen it was huttball, looked at the class comps and declared a 6-0 win for imps by default and moved on.

Yup, valour requirement of 70 to wear the Crafted WH gear, no requirement for the gear you buy from the WH PvP gear vendor.

But its a tried and tested RPG archetype. The casting stealth tank.

Heads: The changes will be as feeble as 1.2 which didnt change the rotation at all for anyone remotely decent and then nerfed survivability, introduced a bug that they hotfixed within a week, and broke us again. Tails: The changes will be ridiculously OP and put us in faceroll heaven as we destroy everyone from 30m in seconds and noone will be able to get near us. Lands on edge: We will gain some small buffs and a bit of extra utility nicely putting us in the middle of the pack.

It really isn't because the class make-up of that 8v8 is unknown, and it's nigh-impossible to balance things when you don't know their values. If it was 8v8 and you were only allowed one of each AC, then it is probably possible (but difficult) to balance. As it is, there is no such thing as 8v8 balance I'm afraid.

Woot an OP thread! We still got it Suck it Marauders!

Had a really annoying one on CW the other night - started 4 (us) vs 5. We got a 5th player early on. They took 2 nodes at the beginning but we managed to win one of them back. It was a really good tussle, lots of back and forwards fighting, everyone running around having fun. Then suddenly 5v6, 5v7, 5v8, we lost 2nd node, farming pack appeared next to our spawn, one of ours d/c, game turned into a pointless gibfest. I just dont understand....why add players to a short-handed (but balanced) game like that? If there's not enough pubs/imps to fill it up, limit the sides to other-side-total + 1

Yeah prof, I understand defending your class, and you haven't been a tosser like the other guy replying to me earlier, but you've given out some dodgy info in this thread I'm afraid.

Sorry, what is the CD on leg slash then as Torhead shows none, and matey above would rather be a know-it-all rather than just tell me

I don't really get your point on the leg slash thing as you only need to get back to 4m momentarily to re-apply, but thank you for clearing up the camo speed boost thing for me

So if you apply that snare in melee and get knocked back, is it, or is it not, now a gap closer?

Hmmm my bad then, Is torhead wrong? I thought that was the best place to look up stuff... Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies, reducing all damage taken by 50%, and increasing movement speed by 30%. Lasts 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely The 10m leap is definitely in Focus Sent tree, I have that on my baby sent alt. Edit: and... Crippling Slash Instant Range: 4 m Deals 670 - 719 weapon damage and slows the target's movement speed to 50% for 12 seconds. Attacks with both weapons if dual wielding Is this wrong too?