Wow, this is a really fun read! I love how you managed to get comedy, drama and a little innuendo in here. Would like to see this done as a four+shot comic or something. Really looking forward to the continued series here too. Keep up the great work!

Holy ... reading the dialogue between Gleneagle and Uruare just hurts my brain. Not that you two aren't making some intelligent and thought provoking comments here, because you are, I'm just wondering if they might be a little too far removed from what everyday people and conversations discuss. It's very fascinating to see what the science is behind a project like this. It still makes my brain hurt. This is confusing to me. I don't see how people, even if they consider themselves exceptions, can be argued to members of a player community. Even if they take exception to the fact that that are playing a game in a social setting, they are indeed a member of said community because they are playing in that setting, regardless of how often or little, or if they have a vested interested in what the community as a whole, or part discuss. Just like everyone in the US is a member of society, even if they don't agree with what the majority or consensus of people say, think or do. They might not care and even after the above explanation; still refute but that's just ignorance on their part, willfully so after a certain point. Emily post comes to mind, why not start importing parts of her book to this conversation as examples and guidelines concerning this topic? Sure these points would be dated, but we could in turn update and present that information to others to get the reaction on if the community agrees on it.

I remember seeing this last month or so ... I thought you did a great job with this. Sucks that people felt the need to post such negative comments about the video.

I'm glad there are people out there that understand Bio Ware has it's own rules concerning other people's comments (which mainly apply to the forums. There are conversations elsewhere in the forums where people have chosen to ignore that. What I think was missed, is that this thread is trying to include the entire social experience, not just the forum section, but the in-game content as well (general chat is one such area). There is little in the way of in-game standards, this is significant grey area that this project is hoping to address. What this thread is trying to do (from my understanding. OP can respond if I'm off or not), is educate people on what is and is not conducive behavior to having an intelligent conversation with others, with community addressed feedback and guidelines for areas that the EULA and TOS don't cover, in respect to all social interactions the community is involved in. This is a community project, so it requires community involvement. Similar to how people are elected into office (by the people). The end result of this document should have input from what the community (at large, not the vocal minority) finds socially acceptable behavior, that the grey areas of the EULA and TOS don't clearly define. Think of it as a gamers 'social etiquette' compendium. I agree with you both if you believe that sentiments concerning 'netiquette' are subjective. I think netiquette is subjective to some degree as well because it's based on some level of morality. I keep reminding myself that the end goal of it is ultimately boiling everything down to right and wrong. Remember the age-old adage, 'Treat others as you would like to be Treated'? Ultimately what this thread is trying to do is boil internet behavior (in the game and community) down to what's proper or improper. Again I think the point of this thread was missed. The end goal of this project isn't to enforce any one particular viewpoint or standard on others, as stated above. More importantly I think it shows how necessary it is to educate everyone on what this project is and isn't. @ Fleshmauler: You are completely free to disagree with this which is unfortunate because it doesn't help progress the progression of the project, beyond further explanation of what the project is and isn't. Addressed here: @ Gleneagle: I think you made an excellent point with your opening dialogue but you diluted it completely after:

Cool! If you have the time, you could always make the armor yourself. I don't know if you know about it but there's that moldable plastic that heats up when you use a heat gun. You could shape the outer armor over your curves and then stick or glue it into place on your body piece or tunic. Probably a waste of time, but just an idea. You'll post pictures of the final result for us, won't you?

Darn, missed the voting period! You can always resubmit stuff, plus someone said WHOOT. I don't know what that is but now that I'm subscribed to this topic, if you resubmit I'll be more prepared to vote. I don't get it the black robe, it looks more Imperial than Rebel to me ... maybe if the robed figure were wearing a brown robe instead of a black one?

For the first issue, Paypal. Unless of course you're not of age to use that service, then you could always send a Money Order. Second, any Artist or Graphic Designer willing to take this on as a professional gig would discuss with you, what exactly you what you expect to see, prior to starting any work on this. They'd probably discuss payment and send preliminary sketches for your approval next, If your happy with it, after the concept or preliminary sketches are done you'd get your final image. It's cool that you've sent out a fan-request and I'd like to see what people come up with, but people serious about their craft expect compensation of some sort.

USARNG 2009 to Present

You did not read my post thoroughly. What I said was: I see that I made an error by adding on the evidence portion of my argument, my mistake. I should have started a new paragraph after the basis of my argument. Thank you for pointing out how necessary it is to do that. I also didn't base my entire argument on the premise that commercials were the only reason people play WoW. If you read the spoiler you would know that there were other points that I used to further illustrate why I think WoW is so popular. Again, this area has been edited to reflect my opinions in a clearer manner. I didn't think it was necessary to state that this falls under the context of simple, in my argument, though it is implied. I would like to take the time to further expand on this. Adressed in above spoiler. Honestly, I don't need to step into a warzone to understand what you're saying as it's apparent the game has issues keeping up with a full group in certain settings. This is a combination+flaw in character design and programming. This issue will get better as computer components are upgraded and programming logic is optimized. It's important to note here, WoW wasn't perfect at the time of launch either. You've admitted yourself that at launch, WoW didn't have a mass of end-game content at launch. You might not like the end-game content and I'll agree that there probably isn't a plethora of it to do, but end-game content also includes badges, exploration (locations) and social experience. If you've made a level 50 character and explored everything the world has to offer, did you also manage to max out your social tiers? That counts as end-game content too. Even if you don't like it, or think it's worthwhile, until you've literally maxed everything out, you haven't done all the end-game content. Is this end-game content? Was there end-game content at the launch of WoW in 2004 (what was it, by the way?), Was it fully operational at launch without any bugs or glitches? If your able to answer yes to those questions and provide proof (documentation); beyond your opinion or recollection of 8 years ago, then I'll concede to your point. You also can't use 'Burning Crusade' as your point because it wasn't until 2011 that it merged with the original WoW game, it is still considered an expansion pack. Nobody said that SW:tOR was more difficult than WoW. The OP said: It sounds like whatever end-content there is here, the overall end result (cinematic?) is that the world is destroyed or shattered. I don't play WoW so I don't know, but that's the impression I got from what the OP said. Nowhere in there did he say that SW:tOR was harder than WoW and I certainly didn't. Where did you get that idea from?

What is '/b' ? That's a 4Chan thing right? Wasn't aware that the game had a '/b' channel. Trade yes, not that ...

All (mmo) games have the steady flow and increase or decrease in subscriptions, every month/year they exist. New content will come out and subscriptions will increase. Content that's not interesting or fun, will undoubtedly see a decrease in subscriptions. WoW experiences this, City of Heroes, Aion, Lineage, Everquest, Ultima Online and so on. Every MMO goes through this cycle so using WoW as your opening comparison is extremely biased. Now, if you're talking about why WoW is so popular and has so many subscriptions in the millions, then you need to address why you think or know that to be the case. Personally I think it's because the game is ridiculously simple for a wide range of audiences to connect (and interact) with. I won't disagree that Bio Ware needs to maintain content updates and speedy patches to keep the playerbase happy. To say that SW:tOR is a WoW killer or was the only other (MMO) game that has a chance of killing WoW, is ignorant and heavily opinionated. It would've more accurate to say something like: SW:tOR was the only game in Q4 of 2011 that stood a chance of destroying WoW. As it stands, we're now in 2012, soon to be Q1 and new MMO's are going to be coming out. For all their new+ness they have the potential to take a significant portion of WoW subscribers and SW:tOR subscribers, if they generate enough interest ... but even then not really. WoW will always have it's loyal fans, just as I'm sure SWG did until the servers were finally shut down. In the end, SWG wasn't generating enough profit to rationalize the continued maintenance and production of the product. There will come a time when WoW goes through the same problem. SWG: Launched Q1 (March 16th), 2000 until server shutdown in: Q4, 2011 WoW: Launched Q4 (November 24th), 2004 EverQuest: Launched Q1 (March 16th), 1999 Ultima Online: Launched Q3 (September 24), 1997 To me, it seems as though you're a supporter of the WoW with your 'I want middle-ground' comment. Have you ever had a WoW subscription and is it still active? I've had a subscription before but it has not been active for several years now.

This is the my closing statement to you on this particular topic. I think we both agree that this is going nowhere and our time would be better served by doing something more productive.

Odd that you would encourage me to lecture you, which I've done by giving my walls of text along with an explanation of why, only to then attempt to admonish, belittle and criticize the me after you said to do just that. Only people that have no basis or solid argument to back their own posts, utilize this approach. As for the dispute claim, I have done no such thing. Incorrect. You have absolutely no clue what I've said, or what my position on this matter. Correct. Incorrect. Never once did I say, imply or infer anything of the sort. Perhaps your inability "give a rats" is part of the problem, which is unfortunate for you. I agree, but the (industry standard) rules and guidelines set forth in the EULA, TOS and guidelines allow it to continue and therefore that opinion is irrelevant. The difference between us, I acknowledge that I can't use this point in this debate (and have chosen not to voice it because of it's irrelevancy) whereas you seem to be unjustifiably clinging to it. Based on what? You have not done nothing to expand on this statement beyond what you feel or think. I never said it was.

It somehow doesn't seem polite to throw someone's words back in their face, but both of you realize you could follow the exact advice your telling other people to do, if this issue bothers you so much, correct? Perception is not 9/10ths of the law. How you as a person feel(s), or perceives the words or statements I or another have written, might not be how they intended you to interpret them. Your feelings are irrelevant because what you feel from moment to moment varies (i.e. you might not feel the same way you do now, if you re-visit this topic in 24 hours or when a person is experiencing their 'monthly cycle', so trying to base an argument or debate on this premise is irrational, illogical, ignorant or naive.

I think you've done a great job outlining the start of what this document would end up looking like in it's final draft. You've very clearly outlined what the focus is aimed at in each section point. I do have some questions and concerns: Q1) Isn't this document going to be the end result of a copy/pasting of the EULA and Forums rules that already discuss these issues; with the exception that the end result is a document that breaks everything down for the common person? Q2) It seems like your going to to consider adding people's 'morality standards' into this project, is that something you should even attempt to include since everyone's morality is subjective and specific to that individual? C1) My major concern is that this isn't going to do anything to calm people's attitudes on this topic and will just start devolving into someone's feelings or emotions getting hurt or agitated. To take on the scope of this project is probably a bad idea, but if the end result is a user-friendly document that people can easily navigate, understand and most importantly, follow the rules, this could be a good thing.

The conversation here has never been about the 'spirit' of moderating general chat or, "spirit of the thing" as you refer to it. This whole forum topic is dedicated to people reporting offensive behavior; what they consider offensive behavior, why they report it and how they report it with the tools given to the community to combat this particular issue. What you've basically stated, is that Bio Ware has an obligation to go above and beyond the tools already provided to the community, to combat people that continually persist in bad behavior in general chat. This is simply wrong and inaccurate if you're basing this on a legal standpoint. If it's a moral standpoint then it's subjective between the person and their own ideals (often influenced by religion) of what's right and wrong and if you wanted to implement a change in policy, then you'd have to do so legally in order for it to be recognized by more than just yourself. This is your opinion and you are entitled to it though; in order for the above opinion to have any merit beyond what you think is in Bio Ware's best interest, you need to show quantifiable proof as evidence, to back up your claim. As long as you understand that Bio Ware is not required (morally or legally) to abide by your personal morals in this matter, we can continue this conversation. If you don't understand that, then please don't respond. This is too vague a comment to attempt any sort of dialogue. What exactly are you trying to say here and what are you basing this on? Examples please. No it isn't. The EULA, rules (as repeatedly stated) and guidelines posted by Bio Ware constantly state what is and isn't allowed in chat and on the forums. You've been given tools to combat this issue. It's your choice to use them. The information I posted specifically for you and others; that might not have taken the time to visit the sites, read and comprehend said information and it's relevancy, in my responses to you. I do my best to make it a point in knowing the subject matter I discuss with others and I try to show where I base the logic I use. If people are willing to remove themselves from their own ego and irrational behavior, sometimes people understand what I'm saying. Let's face it, a chat monitoring service for general chat in this or any other game is a luxury service. It doesn't seem like it should be because you're already paying for the game so why pay extra for a feature that should be included, right? Wrong, other people are playing and paying for the same game you are and don't think that they have to abide by rules or common decorum. Let's not forget that this is and has been the industry standard business practice for the last 10+ years. These people exist in real life too and you have to deal with them. You make money at your job just like everyone else. Rude people are part of the territory, no matter the setting. It's your choice to figure out how to deal with and interact with them or if you even want to say anything to them. It's all a choice.

In order to keep from sucking up more space than necessary, you'll have to click on links to get information on where I'm basing my response on. I'm leaving certain points here in the event people attempt to challenge my point(s). You are correct in saying that you did not say that Bio Ware was bound by any law, to police the forums or in-game chat. However you implied it with the use of the word: Duty. Duty is defined by Merriam Webster as: 1 : conduct due to parents and superiors : [respect] 2 a : obligatory tasks, conduct, service, or functions that arise from one's position (as in life or in a group) 2 b : (1) assigned service or business (2) : active military service (3): a period of being on duty. 3 a : a moral or legal obligation 3 b : the force of moral obligation From the Thesaurus: 3 something one must do because of a prior agreement <I must obey the call of duty and serve my country> related words: oath, pledge, promise, troth, vow, word; arrangement, prearrangement, setup; compact, contract, covenant, pact, trust; debt, payment, tribute; compulsion, constraint, restraint; must, requirement; coercion, duress, force; appointment, engagement, reservation; burden, onus. Using the word Duty implies moral or legal obligations; there was no "jumping to conclusions", as that is part of the definition for what that word means. I will admit that I may have been quick to thinking you meant specifically 'legal' obligations, but I am not entirely wrong for making that parralel. In fairness and credit of you, you didn't specifically say Bio Ware had a legal obligation; the only other way you could have meant that word in the way you used it, was for it to be taken as a moral obligation. But that leads me back to legality, under whose authority do you get to make the statement that ? I'll agree that Bio Ware has a responsibility to maintain their product so that users can interface with it for as long as they require people to pay for content; they aren't required to do anything by law or through some verbal or legal agreement, beyond that. This is another reason why I asked you for physical proof to back up your claim. To say that Bio Ware has to control what every single user says both in-game and on the forums is egregious. That's akin to saying that YouTube, Twitter or FaceBook is supposed to automatically police and remove all racist, sexist and derogatory comments on a users comment field. This isn't how those site work, nor is it how any other social media or gaming forum site works. They all have the same options and procedures to remove and ignore misbehaving players that Bio Ware has; which yes isn't perfect, but is industry standard. What's more important here, is that you have repeatedly stated that Bio Ware has a duty to do it's job but you haven't said explicitly what that job is or what you're basing that statement on. I'm not asking you what you think Bio Ware's job/purpose or moral obligations are, I'm asking you specifically what they are. This can only be provided in print or digitally on a forum where the company has provided information to the public on how it handles specific situations and events (i.e.: EULA, Licensee Agreements, Harassment, Misbehavior, Corporation Policy(ies). So again, where are you getting the idea that Bio Ware is supposed to police General Chat and the Forums? I've looked at the Company Ethos, Policies, Forum Rules and I've found no such policy stated that they are required to do such a thing. Where are moral obligations derived from? http://josephsoninstitute.org/business/blog/2011/02/3-sources-of-moral-obligation/ <- read to see how intertwined moral/ethics and laws ties into each other. There are: Law-Based Moral Obligations. Agreement-Based Obligations. Moral Principal as the basis of Moral Obligation. ---

As previously stated; there are plenty of options we the players have to combat the issue of offensive behavior, both in-game and on the forums. These options have been posted repeatedly in this topic and others. The options players have been given go beyond simply turning off the General Chat channel: The first option is to simply not respond. The second option, is to politely and calmly tell the offending party to stop. The third option, if the offending party does not respond to your request, is to /ignore said offender(s). The fourth option; if the offending party continues or increases their offensive behavior or directs it at you, is to file a report (you could file one for the offensive behavior and then another for harassment). * Concerning Flagging on the forums, if you find a post that is offensive or harassing, flag it. Moderators will do what they do and action will be taken. Bio Ware has said that they can and will investigate reports of offensive and harassing behavior and take appropriate action against the offending party(s). It's very unsettling that people commenting in this thread have no regard for that information and seem to think that Bio Ware is somehow required by (internet) law to go beyond that. For those of you that think they are, I'd like to see what legal documentation you have in your possession to back that claim up. You may send it to: angel.navarrete.e@gmail.com

It reads as though this conversation is getting out of hand and off topic. If you find you disagree with what someone is saying, you have options: Don't respond. Flag the post you personally find offensive. A reminder that there are forum guidelines posted in the "Introduction to SW:tOR Community" http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=262. In case you've forgotten them or chosen not to click on the provided link, here they are: Never insult another member of the community. Respect other community members, whether they agree with you or not. Flag, don't fight. Use the "flag" feature to report posts to our Community Team if you see someone breaking the rules – don't respond to them! Don't make spam posts like "first," "in before the lock," or "bump." Make constructive, on-topic posts that add to the discussion. Meanwhile, both Uruare and Kabjat make some valid points to each other. Uruare, however convoluted I think their point was, has a valid point here: . If you don't like the way this person presented their information; be civil and say as much if you prefer. That does not mean attacking them or using capitals to emphasize your own thoughts and opinions about them on the matter. What you may wonder about the person and their environment isn't entirely relevant to this particular discussion. Kabjat, Others have already stated that both the tools exist to combat this problem, and given their process for what they do on this issue. You yourself have agreed with them and have even said, You can't argue/debate your viewpoint for in-game standards and expect the same rules which you abide by there, not apply here to the forums. Both are connected to each other and both have guidelines to follow, even if we don't like or agree with said guidelines currently in place. Follow them. It's a choice we make to respond to these comments or not. If you choose to respond, you've been told to keep it civil by Bioware. Do it. As it stands you both make valid points, but the delivery of those points don't fall within the guidelines outlined above by Bio ware and therefore both of you are in violation of the guidelines.

There are several things players can do when they come across offensive behavior in-game, though most people don't follow the 'civil' order. The first option is to simply not respond. The second option, is to politely and calmly tell the offending party to stop. The third option, if the offending party does not respond to your request, is to /ignore said offender(s). The fourth option; if the offending party continues or increases their offensive behavior or directs it at you, is to file a report (you could file one for the offensive behavior and then another for harassment). Nowhere in the EULA/Forum rules does it say you should continue dialogue with the offending party beyond asking them to 'politely' stop. Nowhere in the EULA or Forum rules does it say that it is appropriate behavior for the person filing an 'offensive' report, to continually voice their disapproval of the offending players behavior. We've all been told what and how to respond to offensive behavior by BioWare. Follow it. For people that go against these rules/guidelines, all that you accomplish is the exacerbation of a minor issue into a larger one. It should come as no surprise that a simple issue of offensive behavior can, and often does, devolve into harassment. People are ignorant but also irrationally sensitive/entitled in settings where they face no serious physical and/or harmful repercussions to their person. This irrationality increases in online settings. Even if there are appropriate repercussions to offensive players, some don't heed the warnings and/or punishments and continue their behavior. There is nothing you can do about this situation beyond the steps listed above, to remove yourself from these situations. Nobody's ego is no bigger than anyone else's. A player's profession, and outside life mean nothing in the game-world. Nobody is more entitled to special treatment in the game-world or forums than another player is. In the instance that players purchased the Collectors Edition of the game, those people are only afforded special items to enhance their gameplay, not diminish others.

I wasn't speaking directly to any one particular person (at the time Clinical), there were no quotes used to point out any specific individual's comments. That was a blanket statement meant to include everyone that constantly refers to SWG as "the best game ever" or "SW:tOR is horrible and this is why..." posts. We know the game is flawed. Like every other MMO that starts out they need time to mature and correct themselves based on community feedback and developer programming. Meanwhile it shouldn't come as a surprise that often times developers listen to the community and have been known to hire people from said community to work with them on those issues. In the few examples that are on random forums in different MMO's the people that were selected to work with these studios had a major hand in contributing to the betterment of the game. Both in pointing out flaws and giving suggestions on fixes. If you want to point out the flaws, point them out to your hearts content. But don't be 'that guy' that says what they don't like 'x', 'y', or 'z' about the game, without offering something to help fix it. If you have offered ideas on fixes then it should be obvious this comment isn't meant for you. For everyone else that isn't giving ideas/suggestions on how to fix the way something is currently implemented in-game, it should be fairly obvious these people aren't making observations, it comes off as game bashing.

Why exactly are you wondering if Underworld Trading scales down and what exactly, do you think needs to be scaled down? If anything, wouldn't it improve as you increased in skill level? It sounds like you're making bank from the UT skill and have a nice stash of credits saved up. Hopefully you aren't 'that guy' that decided to make an errant post to rub your success in other peoples faces. That's just uncool.

Chat, custom channels and colors? So because the search function has been disabled and won't be back up for a few days, I can't readily find the answer to my question. I apologize in advance if these questions have already been asked and kindly ask you to point me to the proper place to find my answer, if you know exactly where it is. First I'd like to know if it's possible to create custom chat channels. I'm sure it is and I've tried fiddling around with the settings in chat, but can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong. What I want to do is have a chat tab that houses all combat information, NPC dialogue, a local 'say' tab (in a RP server it's difficult to tell who's said what in local vs. general), Party chat and most importantly, a general chat tab. I've managed to create a tab on my own but, trying to figure out how to make that tab display only NPC dialogue isn't something that's super obvious to me right now. Anyone with info and screenshots or anything that would help me fix this issue, is greatly appreciated and welcome. Also, I'm wondering if it's possible to change the color of chat displayed, in a channel. Is it possible to have the 'Trade' channel display green text as opposed to the same blue color as general and local chat? Where do I find those options? This is a preemptive Thank You, for taking the time to read and respond to my silly questions.

There's a point where reminiscing turns into whining. It's fine to feel nostalgic about the day's of yore and all that you loved about them, really it is It's just annoying when people start to reminisce about those times like nothing bad ever happened in them; or if it did, people play it off that a singular event made everything awful. It turns into whining when people constantly refer to SWG as the "Golden Years" of Lucas Arts Entertainment. I don't say this to be mean or cruel but as a point of fact: The SWG days are over, the servers used for it have been shut down and are most likely being recycled for other projects. Star Wars the Old Republic is the newest in the Lucas Arts franchise, it's just been released. You old time+y bastards need to start realizing that a lot of the content you liked about SWG is already in, or is going to make it's way into this new version of the game in some form. Will it ever be exactly like SWG, probably not. Hopefully it will be better. Also, If the SWG platform was so great and the community really was as awesome as your memory recalls, why wouldn't you try to keep it alive by re-building it in the form of an emulator? People in other MMO's are doing just that. The Matrix Online has a barely functional world. Earth and Beyond Online has something similar going for it too. You and the "community" should put your money where your mouth is and do something to keep SWG alive if you really cared for it as much as you say you do/did.