Wow, this is a really fun read! I love how you managed to get comedy, drama and a little innuendo in here. Would like to see this done as a four+shot comic or something. Really looking forward to the continued series here too. Keep up the great work!

Holy ... reading the dialogue between Gleneagle and Uruare just hurts my brain. Not that you two aren't making some intelligent and thought provoking comments here, because you are, I'm just wondering if they might be a little too far removed from what everyday people and conversations discuss. It's very fascinating to see what the science is behind a project like this. It still makes my brain hurt. This is confusing to me. I don't see how people, even if they consider themselves exceptions, can be argued to members of a player community. Even if they take exception to the fact that that are playing a game in a social setting, they are indeed a member of said community because they are playing in that setting, regardless of how often or little, or if they have a vested interested in what the community as a whole, or part discuss. Just like everyone in the US is a member of society, even if they don't agree with what the majority or consensus of people say, think or do. They might not care and even after the above explanation; still refute but that's just ignorance on their part, willfully so after a certain point. Emily post comes to mind, why not start importing parts of her book to this conversation as examples and guidelines concerning this topic? Sure these points would be dated, but we could in turn update and present that information to others to get the reaction on if the community agrees on it.

I remember seeing this last month or so ... I thought you did a great job with this. Sucks that people felt the need to post such negative comments about the video.

I'm glad there are people out there that understand Bio Ware has it's own rules concerning other people's comments (which mainly apply to the forums. There are conversations elsewhere in the forums where people have chosen to ignore that. What I think was missed, is that this thread is trying to include the entire social experience, not just the forum section, but the in-game content as well (general chat is one such area). There is little in the way of in-game standards, this is significant grey area that this project is hoping to address. What this thread is trying to do (from my understanding. OP can respond if I'm off or not), is educate people on what is and is not conducive behavior to having an intelligent conversation with others, with community addressed feedback and guidelines for areas that the EULA and TOS don't cover, in respect to all social interactions the community is involved in. This is a community project, so it requires community involvement. Similar to how people are elected into office (by the people). The end result of this document should have input from what the community (at large, not the vocal minority) finds socially acceptable behavior, that the grey areas of the EULA and TOS don't clearly define. Think of it as a gamers 'social etiquette' compendium. I agree with you both if you believe that sentiments concerning 'netiquette' are subjective. I think netiquette is subjective to some degree as well because it's based on some level of morality. I keep reminding myself that the end goal of it is ultimately boiling everything down to right and wrong. Remember the age-old adage, 'Treat others as you would like to be Treated'? Ultimately what this thread is trying to do is boil internet behavior (in the game and community) down to what's proper or improper. Again I think the point of this thread was missed. The end goal of this project isn't to enforce any one particular viewpoint or standard on others, as stated above. More importantly I think it shows how necessary it is to educate everyone on what this project is and isn't. @ Fleshmauler: You are completely free to disagree with this which is unfortunate because it doesn't help progress the progression of the project, beyond further explanation of what the project is and isn't. Addressed here: @ Gleneagle: I think you made an excellent point with your opening dialogue but you diluted it completely after:

Cool! If you have the time, you could always make the armor yourself. I don't know if you know about it but there's that moldable plastic that heats up when you use a heat gun. You could shape the outer armor over your curves and then stick or glue it into place on your body piece or tunic. Probably a waste of time, but just an idea. You'll post pictures of the final result for us, won't you?

Darn, missed the voting period! You can always resubmit stuff, plus someone said WHOOT. I don't know what that is but now that I'm subscribed to this topic, if you resubmit I'll be more prepared to vote. I don't get it the black robe, it looks more Imperial than Rebel to me ... maybe if the robed figure were wearing a brown robe instead of a black one?

For the first issue, Paypal. Unless of course you're not of age to use that service, then you could always send a Money Order. Second, any Artist or Graphic Designer willing to take this on as a professional gig would discuss with you, what exactly you what you expect to see, prior to starting any work on this. They'd probably discuss payment and send preliminary sketches for your approval next, If your happy with it, after the concept or preliminary sketches are done you'd get your final image. It's cool that you've sent out a fan-request and I'd like to see what people come up with, but people serious about their craft expect compensation of some sort.

USARNG 2009 to Present

You did not read my post thoroughly. What I said was: I see that I made an error by adding on the evidence portion of my argument, my mistake. I should have started a new paragraph after the basis of my argument. Thank you for pointing out how necessary it is to do that. I also didn't base my entire argument on the premise that commercials were the only reason people play WoW. If you read the spoiler you would know that there were other points that I used to further illustrate why I think WoW is so popular. Again, this area has been edited to reflect my opinions in a clearer manner. I didn't think it was necessary to state that this falls under the context of simple, in my argument, though it is implied. I would like to take the time to further expand on this. Adressed in above spoiler. Honestly, I don't need to step into a warzone to understand what you're saying as it's apparent the game has issues keeping up with a full group in certain settings. This is a combination+flaw in character design and programming. This issue will get better as computer components are upgraded and programming logic is optimized. It's important to note here, WoW wasn't perfect at the time of launch either. You've admitted yourself that at launch, WoW didn't have a mass of end-game content at launch. You might not like the end-game content and I'll agree that there probably isn't a plethora of it to do, but end-game content also includes badges, exploration (locations) and social experience. If you've made a level 50 character and explored everything the world has to offer, did you also manage to max out your social tiers? That counts as end-game content too. Even if you don't like it, or think it's worthwhile, until you've literally maxed everything out, you haven't done all the end-game content. Is this end-game content? Was there end-game content at the launch of WoW in 2004 (what was it, by the way?), Was it fully operational at launch without any bugs or glitches? If your able to answer yes to those questions and provide proof (documentation); beyond your opinion or recollection of 8 years ago, then I'll concede to your point. You also can't use 'Burning Crusade' as your point because it wasn't until 2011 that it merged with the original WoW game, it is still considered an expansion pack. Nobody said that SW:tOR was more difficult than WoW. The OP said: It sounds like whatever end-content there is here, the overall end result (cinematic?) is that the world is destroyed or shattered. I don't play WoW so I don't know, but that's the impression I got from what the OP said. Nowhere in there did he say that SW:tOR was harder than WoW and I certainly didn't. Where did you get that idea from?

What is '/b' ? That's a 4Chan thing right? Wasn't aware that the game had a '/b' channel. Trade yes, not that ...

All (mmo) games have the steady flow and increase or decrease in subscriptions, every month/year they exist. New content will come out and subscriptions will increase. Content that's not interesting or fun, will undoubtedly see a decrease in subscriptions. WoW experiences this, City of Heroes, Aion, Lineage, Everquest, Ultima Online and so on. Every MMO goes through this cycle so using WoW as your opening comparison is extremely biased. Now, if you're talking about why WoW is so popular and has so many subscriptions in the millions, then you need to address why you think or know that to be the case. Personally I think it's because the game is ridiculously simple for a wide range of audiences to connect (and interact) with. I won't disagree that Bio Ware needs to maintain content updates and speedy patches to keep the playerbase happy. To say that SW:tOR is a WoW killer or was the only other (MMO) game that has a chance of killing WoW, is ignorant and heavily opinionated. It would've more accurate to say something like: SW:tOR was the only game in Q4 of 2011 that stood a chance of destroying WoW. As it stands, we're now in 2012, soon to be Q1 and new MMO's are going to be coming out. For all their new+ness they have the potential to take a significant portion of WoW subscribers and SW:tOR subscribers, if they generate enough interest ... but even then not really. WoW will always have it's loyal fans, just as I'm sure SWG did until the servers were finally shut down. In the end, SWG wasn't generating enough profit to rationalize the continued maintenance and production of the product. There will come a time when WoW goes through the same problem. SWG: Launched Q1 (March 16th), 2000 until server shutdown in: Q4, 2011 WoW: Launched Q4 (November 24th), 2004 EverQuest: Launched Q1 (March 16th), 1999 Ultima Online: Launched Q3 (September 24), 1997 To me, it seems as though you're a supporter of the WoW with your 'I want middle-ground' comment. Have you ever had a WoW subscription and is it still active? I've had a subscription before but it has not been active for several years now.

This is the my closing statement to you on this particular topic. I think we both agree that this is going nowhere and our time would be better served by doing something more productive.

Odd that you would encourage me to lecture you, which I've done by giving my walls of text along with an explanation of why, only to then attempt to admonish, belittle and criticize the me after you said to do just that. Only people that have no basis or solid argument to back their own posts, utilize this approach. As for the dispute claim, I have done no such thing. Incorrect. You have absolutely no clue what I've said, or what my position on this matter. Correct. Incorrect. Never once did I say, imply or infer anything of the sort. Perhaps your inability "give a rats" is part of the problem, which is unfortunate for you. I agree, but the (industry standard) rules and guidelines set forth in the EULA, TOS and guidelines allow it to continue and therefore that opinion is irrelevant. The difference between us, I acknowledge that I can't use this point in this debate (and have chosen not to voice it because of it's irrelevancy) whereas you seem to be unjustifiably clinging to it. Based on what? You have not done nothing to expand on this statement beyond what you feel or think. I never said it was.

It somehow doesn't seem polite to throw someone's words back in their face, but both of you realize you could follow the exact advice your telling other people to do, if this issue bothers you so much, correct? Perception is not 9/10ths of the law. How you as a person feel(s), or perceives the words or statements I or another have written, might not be how they intended you to interpret them. Your feelings are irrelevant because what you feel from moment to moment varies (i.e. you might not feel the same way you do now, if you re-visit this topic in 24 hours or when a person is experiencing their 'monthly cycle', so trying to base an argument or debate on this premise is irrational, illogical, ignorant or naive.

I think you've done a great job outlining the start of what this document would end up looking like in it's final draft. You've very clearly outlined what the focus is aimed at in each section point. I do have some questions and concerns: Q1) Isn't this document going to be the end result of a copy/pasting of the EULA and Forums rules that already discuss these issues; with the exception that the end result is a document that breaks everything down for the common person? Q2) It seems like your going to to consider adding people's 'morality standards' into this project, is that something you should even attempt to include since everyone's morality is subjective and specific to that individual? C1) My major concern is that this isn't going to do anything to calm people's attitudes on this topic and will just start devolving into someone's feelings or emotions getting hurt or agitated. To take on the scope of this project is probably a bad idea, but if the end result is a user-friendly document that people can easily navigate, understand and most importantly, follow the rules, this could be a good thing.