Except he later faked his death in front of Bulq, and then arose and fought him, all without Bulq ever realizing. And when did Bulq ever sense Tholme? And do I really need to say that Anzanti>Imperial Agent everyday day of the week?

LE-series repair droid: one of the best ever made, not used by the CIS. Goose droid:nothing special, and again, not used by the CIS. MK-series maintenance droid: although a techno Union droid, it doesn't have any documented use with the Techno Union or the CIS. All use is with the Empire or Rebellion. KDY-4 tech droid: Another good droid, but was only ever used by KDY during the Imperial Reign. There are others, but nothing that can repair a bridge without a mechanic and other tech/droids/a space station.The best thing you can have, unless you can find a source, are mouse droids, which don't do ship/hull damage repair.

There are some droids that could possibly do it, but nothing the PH would have access to. On another note, I just realized I had an entire writeup of CCN droids that I never posted, which led to these droids never being brought up in my Kaggath. Yay

As for repair of the Malevolence, I'm seriously doubting it. Any repair droids that are on board and can repair this form of damage where created after the Clone Wars, with the best being created during New Republic. And considering the crew are B2's, it would be illogical to have droids like that, regardless of Lumiya and other Imperial things. Unless you can find one affiliated with the CIS that can repair a bridge, and other internal damages. Otherwise, you have astromechs, and maybe a goose droid.

He actually spent 5 months doing that But he also likely spent more than a year orchestrating events for the entire Outer Rim Campaign. Oh, and a question- which Tholme are we using? Pre-Order 66? After? Before would mean he is even less likely to get his hands dirty, but after, he was ashamed that he had wasted opportunities and failed missions because of it.

I'd leave that for others. Tholme could easily do it, but he isn't young, and is more of a mastermind of events. Much like Traya:eek:

Just a quick question, but how is the Malevolence being repaired? I don't recall the Separatist base having access to space stations (or other means of repair) and isn't their a rule about repair? That's why we couldn't choose some form of supplier? Or am I just making that up?

Just wanted to point out that the TIE also used these, so your ships will take a beating as well. That said, point defense will do well to protect you. I'd also like to point out that there might still be a way for the GA to cripple the fighter complements of the PH- A-Wings were known to regularly perform recon/small damage to Imperial Fleets/ships, and get away before any TIE's could be unloaded or point defense system to target them. Especially considering that the A-Wing has built in jammers and scramblers to ruin communication and allow them to remain targeted by point defense and other targeting computers. Now, the TIE is quite a bit faster than the PH's fighter, which could theoretically allow a tactic like this to work.

I apologize then. I guess we should consider the possibility of him teaching Jaina the technique, and her teaching him Battle Meld.

Both of you would be incorrect- Tholme does know how to make himself invisible using force cloak. He is also a master of force concealment, or hiding his presence.. Sources? First off, go to Force Cloak's page. Notable users. Secondly, it makes sense. Quinalan only learned darkside techniques under Dooku, and learned his saber forms separately. All other force powers were taught by Tholme. Now, Tholme taught Quinalan (and later Aayla) everything he knew. I repeat, everything. Quinlan trained Aayla the same way. When Quinlan fell to the darkside, Tholme became the master of Aayla, and taught her as well. Both of them know Force Cloak, so it only makes sense for them to have learned it from Tholme. And finally, this quote. "Vos was also one of the few Jedi who was able to use Force cloak, which he learned from Tholme and taught Secura."

I would also add that Tholme could easily teach her force cloak. He taught the technique to both Quinlan and Aayla, so he is more than capable of teaching it.

Beni, I just want you to know I'm staying as neutral as possible for this round. I will help you, but I'm gathering information first. Oh, but I think the Malevolence is going down. But you might win space....

The Bothan's information network was second to none. Like I said, if they don;t have it now, it would be acquired instantly. Remember this quote? It applies here as well. "What Imperial Intelligence cannot find, they go to the Black Sun. Take note folks, the Galactic Empire's Imperial Intel network is galaxy spanning and they themselves are able to gather a ton of information, utilizing their own highly trained agents and high technology. Yet even they sometimes go to the Black Sun when they cannot gather the information. The only other organization that the Black Sun hasn't infiltrated is the Bothan Spynet, it's only real competition in terms of galactic intelligence. Which again...that's not a low showing. ""Like the Bothan Spynet, Black Sun conducts its business in secret. Its members might be well known but they lead double lives and their real agenda is only known to the Black Sun."" - Taken from Hero's Guide Straight forward, much like the Spynet, Black Sun does business secret, members have double lives." -Wolf The Spynet was capable of getting the plans for the Death Star- I'm sure they can gather this up. Then the bomb is taken special care of. You mustn't forget proton grenades, thermal detonators, and an assortment of other grenades these guys will have. I'd like to ask how these droids will see Jaina and Tholme? Both of which are can use force cloak, IIRC. As for the droid, dangerous, yes. But again, only twenty. And those would be much more useful on the ground. May I ask why? That just seems silly- you give them everything else.

I'd say that the A-Wings could catch him. Difficult, yes, but very possible. These ships are unbelievably fast. As for the Bothans, like they always do. They gathered information from every corner of the galaxy. They used bribery, observation, trade, and spies to gather information. While the Malevolence was destroyed before the spynet's formation, I feel as though they would still have its layout. Bothan's have always gathered information. It's a cultural thing- Bothan's live in tribes that are independent from one another. In order to survive as a tribe, they would gather information, spy, and perform other acts of espionage on other tribes. This would later become a way of protecting the species. Considering the danger that was the CIS, it's quite logical that the Bothan's would have gathered all information possible. You also have the loose end that is Ziro the Hutt. The Bothan Spynet worked with all aspects of the galaxy, even the underbelly. They would no doubt have contact with the Hutt's, and could gather it that way. Tholme, I don't believe, is a master pilot. I could see him joining Jaina (he would only serve to help her fly), or going in with an ace. Perhaps in an A-Wing.

I'd beg to differ. I'd assume the Bothan's already have the complete layout of the Malevolence, and even if they don't, it wouldn't be long before they had their paws on it. Next would be acquiring some sort of explosive to really kill the ship- you mentioned proton bombs, so we will go with that for now, although any bomb could be acquired. This would be perhaps the simplest task- TIE bombers utilized proton bombs, as well as other bombs. Proton grenades could be procured by SpecForces, as the Rebels were quite fond of them. It should also be noted that the Rebels were using many illegal things, got weapons from the Black Market, and would no doubt have ties to explosives. If need be, Bothans could be used to gather weaponry as well. The only difficult part would be boarding the ship, although this wouldn't be overly difficult. Once on board, Jaina would be capable of planting said explosive anywhere. With only 40 Storm Commandos, the PH wouldn't risk wasting them- likely only a few would participate in the battle. SpecForce is amazing as well- they constantly ran op's against the Empire, and rarely were caught. They snuck past Storm troopers on a daily basis, or are we forgetting this picture? Or this one? B1's are nothing for them. Add on Tholme's tactical genius, and the ship goes down.

I'd just like to pop in and ask why everyone is ignoring Tholme here? You know, the guy that could easily create a master plan to destroy the Malevolence? Jaina's great and all, but Tholme is an espionage genius. Not many people can even come close to this guys mind with espionage. He trained with Anazati for years, won countless victories in the Outer Rim, and survived Order 66. Hell, if he thinks Jaina and a squad will fail, he'll join them. And that makes the job even easier for him. His only failed spy mission was Quinaln- and really, that wasn't even his fault. Quinalan was too weak to withstand the darkside. His genius, coupled with SpecForce, the Bothan Spynet, and Jaina, guarantee this ship goes down. And on another note, I just realized how similar Karadon's faction is to my classic one. Very interesting.

Your just jealous the Traya fan club doesn't get to wear montrails at all the meetings But actually, she was an all around masterful tactician. One of only a few High Jedi Generals, the woman in charge of training the clones and protecting Kamino (perhaps the most important Republic planet), and was the saving grace of the battle of Brentaal IV. While she doesn't have many naval showings, she was deeply involved with planning multiple battles, including Geonosis. She is also credited with winning the battles of Centares and Ando, as well as accompanying Yoda in a crusade on an unnamed planet. Combine that with her unmatched cunning and you have someone who can't be described by inexperienced. No. She is much to cunning, resourceful, and experienced to be fooled by Grievous. She has few naval showing, I agree. But she worked coordinating many battles, was tasked on multiple occasions with commanding planet wide battles, and had the skills to be in charge of training all clones troopers on Kamino. That says something.

I'm going to stop you right there. Shaak Ti is about as far away from inexperienced as one can get. Do I need to go into details? Because I can, and believe me, I will. P.S. Congrats on the win, Aurbere. Very close battle. I'm a little upset with some sections of the scenario, and I obviously hoped I would win, you did a fantastic job. It was a well won victory.

Thank you. But really, thank Wolf. He PM'ed me, but I only just remembered the quotes until now. Although I would hate for you to have more quotes, it would be nice to know more about the SI.

OK, I'm officially done. Beni, I figured the decision would be posted by now...

Just some last minutes quotes provided by Wolf before his departure that I never ended up posting. You can read his entire post on comic vine if you want, but I'll just use select quotes. "Black Sun maintains thousands of agents and spies within the Rebel Alliance, Galactic Empire, planetary and local governments large and small, other criminal organizations and law enforcement agencies." - Taken from Rebellion Era sourcebook "The organizations is involved in every illegal activity in the galaxy be it gambling, gunrunning, smuggling, political corruption, assassination, bribery or spice running, from the Corporate Sector to the Outer Rim." - Taken from Rebellion Era sourcebook "Black Sun operates primarily in busy, cosmopolitan areas where a large number of people are available to be exploited. Whereas the Hutt crime families spend most of their time on remote, Outer Rim worlds, most Black Sun agents focus their efforts on planets that have both a high population and high crime rate. This strategy makes it easier for Black Sun agents to blend in with other criminals, thus avoiding drawing attention to the syndicate and also provides a breeding ground for potential organization members." - Taken from TFU Campaign Guide "Black Sun operates in a variety of crime fields. Each Vigo(high ranking member) typically specializes in a particular crime or vice. Example one Vigo might specialize in extortion and thus would be in charge of a massive protection ring on Coruscant. Another might be a former assassin and be in charge of the syndicate's band of galaxy roaming professional killers. Black Sun agents deal in everything from confidence scams, gambling rings, and extortion rackets to high level thievery, corporate espionage and terrorism. For the right price, Black Sun is willing and able to do perform any task outside the law." - Taken from TFU Campaign Guide "Black Sun is highly capable and equally ruthless. Crossing a Black Sun agent is a good way to ensure misfortune will come your way. Crossing a high ranking operative usually earns the offender a one way ticket to a block of carbonite at the bottom of a Mon Calamari ocean. Black Sun is also willing to take out its own members when they displease the Vigos or Underlord. Many well known criminals have been found dead as a result of infighting between members of the Black Sun syndicate." - Taken from TFU Campaign Guide "Pike Sisters, this deadly and beautiful duo are prime examples of the kind of operatives Xizor hires, well trained, among the best in their field and with no ties whatsoever to the Black Sun. The Epicanthix twins Zan and Zu Pike are professional fighters in the remote Pacanth Reach, a small cluster of stars in the Outer Rim Territories. The sisters are masters of the Bunduki martial art Teras Kasi since they were young quickly raising through the ranks of the other Teras Kasi students, receiving many honors from their teachers." - Taken from Shadows of the Empire sourcebook "Anyone who says the Hutts are the leading example of crime have never heard of the Black Sun. Black Sun differs from the Hutt criminal syndicate chiefly in that, not being a sovereign state, it operates covertly and does so with the tacit approval of the Emperor. Black Sun deals in information much like the Bothan Spynet, but Black Sun acquires it in a much more aggressive and ruthless fashion. Through blackmail, coercion, intimidation and sometimes assassination, Black Sun learns what others would rather keep secret, then uses those very same techniques to turn information into credits." - Taken from Hero's Guide "What Imperial Intelligence cannot discover for itself, Prince Xizor's operatives often can garner with ease. Because Black Sun frequently gathers information, it has informants not only within the Rebel Alliance, but also the Corporate Sector, Hutt space and even the Unknown Regions." - Taken from Hero's Guide "Like the Bothan Spynet, Black Sun conducts its business in secret. Its members might be well known but they lead double lives and their real agenda is only known to the Black Sun." - Taken from Hero's Guide "No one has ever managed to 'resgin' from the Black Sun. Membership is for life and leaving the Black Sun especially following some sort of transgression is an effectively a request for execution. Some members have tried to run and hide, only to discover Black Sun agents can find and kill nearly anyone, nearly anywhere." - Taken from Hero's Guide And Wolf's own words, "What Imperial Intelligence cannot find, they go to the Black Sun. Take note folks, the Galactic Empire's Imperial Intel network is galaxy spanning and they themselves are able to gather a ton of information, utilizing their own highly trained agents and high technology. Yet even they sometimes go to the Black Sun when they cannot gather the information. The only other organization that the Black Sun hasn't infiltrated is the Bothan Spynet, it's only real competition in terms of galactic intelligence. Which again...that's not a low showing."

Alright, officially done. And I'm pretty sure I lost. Oh well, I didn't expect to win anyway, if anyone remembers. I decided last minute to even make a faction. So, good debate Aurbere. It was extremely fun, and quite the challenge. I hope I win, but I'll be happy if you do. But you know I'll support Silenceo if you go against each other . On a side note, I'm going to bed. I'm exhausted from today, and this week in general. Very hectic, very busy, very long. And next week is looking to be the same

OK, I had to. Don't hate me. No he isn't. You must realize that. He isn't just some guy. He is the third most powerful man in the galaxy, the leader of the second most powerful organization in the galaxy, and a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure she will have words. AT the very least, he is someone who caused the deaths of countless solider under her. Either way, Xizor will talk, and that's all that needs to be done. I'm confident the assassins/guards/droids in the palace would keep him more than safe. As for Oppo and Sora, you must remember that Sora knew Oppo. They had been friends, colleges working together. He killed him from behind, likely, as he couldn't do it from the front. So he wouldn't talk. Black Sun held agents in every single organization in the galaxy, except the Bothan Spynet. That would include the Federation. When people say Black Sun was embedded in the galaxy, they are kiding. Literally, every single organiztaion has Black Sun agents, affiliates, or acquaintances. And yes, Sith Warriors. Although they could target Dooku

Hehe Even if they aren't victorious, the CIC is more than capable of this. As the battle goes on longer, the CIC only gets more powerful and larger. But the Cipher agents, will fail. They are good, but Xizor has dealt with assassins before. He is a crime lord after all. I mean, he fought with Vader on a daily basis. These agents are nothing Xizor hasn't fought, or worked with. Except that we see him do this more times than not. He does it with Ventress in TCW multiple times. He does it with Anakin and Kenobi, as well. And considering those are both people he knows, I can see him being more likely to do this, as he knows Durge. Not incompetent, but outmatched. Dooku could/would easily win his battle. But the base goes down, and he would die. He is a human, after all. And the Fist forces would either be weakened by their defeat, outnumbered as they are attacking Xizor, or weakened by the elements. And you have to admit, Dooku would not be able to do anything to survive this, or anticipate it. Oh and Aurbere, I'm not going to even talk about your second post. I have issues with it, but I'm hoping it is largely ignored. On a side not, you have waaaaaaayyy to much time on your hands

Alright. Last argumentative post. Countering Aurbere. I'll keep this as brief as possible. Regarding ambushes, I have a question. Where do your hologrpahic maps get their data from? My guess, considering GPS's would be from another location. Which means, the jammers placed in the stealth transports would scramble them enough to get a jump on your forces. You also talk of ground disturbances. I'm sure that will be covered by sandstorms, winds, and other unpredictable things. We need to rmeber that sandstorms are completely unpredictable, and instantaneous. It can be 100% clear one second, and have no visibility the next. I even quoted one officer warning troops of them in a post. And fifteen minutes is all my forces need. Concerning pheromones, you bring up Leia. Well, she resisted after being a servant for a little. And While Aayla may have resisted, Quinlan did not. And other agents killing? I doubt it. Sith are the ultimate power for your agents. If she says let him talk, they wouldn't dare shoot. And by then, they are all servants. Beni argued against the number of agents Black Sun would have in the Fist, and I have to counter. I can count on one hand how many Imperials don't have serious ambition. Nearly every NPC in this game offers you something extra so they can impress a higher up, or gain favor, or show they are superior to others. Nearly every NPC says, "Hey, I can't do this, but it needs to get done cause my boss told me too. Do me a favor?" That is who Black Sun would deal with. And they would be limitless. As for taking over the Trade Federation, remember that Black Sun will be embedded into it from the beginning. Guri and agents are more than capable of taking over. And staying in power? Put bounties on other higher ups who oppose the new rule, and then use the ol' ambition of others to cement the new Black Sun power. A good demonstration of Guri's abilities would work as well. And as a final note, Xizor's guards and assassins would be the very best in the underworld. They would not be affiliated with Black Sun (this is how Black Sun has always operated) and would have perfect streaks for high profile missions. They would be more than capable of killing force users, and would be masters of assassination/stealth/body guarding. This also applies to pilots. Black Sun did have "aces".