Yeah I disagree with this being you vs the world. My debate against Aurbere was me against others (you included). I had maybe three posts from Warren, and a handful of posts from Silenceo and Wolf. That's it. You had much more support than that. Just because it was mainly you doesn't mean you didn't have support. It should be mainly you, it's your faction, not someone else's. They have no obligation to post on behalf of you. And as for all this rage, I find it a bit pathetic. Have none of you ever had a debate in school? You can't always win, even if you have the "right" answer. WIll bias come in? Inevetably. As my counter so beautifully pointed out, every arbiter has bias. We all have bias. Crying bias does no good, especially in a debate setting. At the very least know that if someone else was arbitrating the result could have been different. Sel, we all know that you favor, and view, OR characters in higher regard. Don't deny it- we all know. That's your bias. Wolf is a OT man. I prefer CW-OT myself. You can say your unbiased all day, but we all know. Everyone just needs to cool down. Aurbere made his decision- it sucks to lose, but someone has to.

The wookie. But can she? I would not place Surik above Nomi, no they are likely equal, or Nomi winning out slightly. And you don't have to be darkside. That said, my quote implies a variation, and something Nomi has done before. And considering the force bond, it would likely weaken Surik substantially as well. And where does that quote come from? The weaker or less powerful? Hell, Windu could likely be used, with Nomi directing the power at them both. Nomi did just this with millions of Jedi on Kun, twice. And the more I think of this, the more I see the Jedi talking before combat. Then strike. That would give Nomi more than enough time to do this and prepare herself mentally.

Actually, Nomi could likely cut Revan off. In a very taxing variation of this technique usable only by those with experience in battle meditation, the Force-user could use the Force to sever a target who was heavily tainted or consumed by the dark side. This technique effectively caged the user's power within their own darkness and rendered them blind to the Force, though not dead to it. Nomi Sunrider used this technique on Ulic Qel-Droma after he killed his brother Cay on Ossus. Considering Revan's past, even if retrained and redeemed, he likely is still tainted by the darkside. The darkside doesn't just vanish if you are redeemed, and Revan committed some of the worst atrocities in history as a Sith. And he certainly has inner darkness, hell he even fights with anger and aggression. I'd say that is more than possible. And considering their force bond would be shattered, that could prove devastating to Surik as well.

However, all of the people she ragdolled and choked were barely trained, save Atton, and likely had little to no force barrier to protect themselves. Add to that the nexus, and it becomes clear that that wasn't a showing of her power. And Atton hadn't used the force in how many years? Sion is impressive, yes, but really she didn't do anything impressive against him. She enslaved him into doing something he wanted to do anyway. Honestly, Sion wanted to kill the Exile so he could save her, Traya really only gave him an outlet to do this. If Sion really wished, he could have killed her right then and there. Just continue to fight her until she can't fight anymore. For eternity of necessary. And I disagree. Drain is by far Traya's most potent and devastating ability- she is still strong without it, but not nearly to the level you are saying. She did what? Choke a couple masters, none overly powerful. Masters yes, but just as you argued against Nomi, a title doesn't mean power or skill. Really? I this this was post wound. Disregard that then. I'm glad you found the video useful, but I think you are interpreting it incorrectly. Note the ending: I'm not going to quote him, but he says something of running circles around Atris and destroying her. That sounds to me as though Nomi would have no issues. Add to it her Ataru and Nomi could likely hold her own against Meetra, for a short time anyway. She did this against the Sith Brotherhood on Coruscant at least. And considering the video, Nomi would likely only combat Surik with the Force. Something Nomi can win.

I agree. This has really descended into madness. I don't envy your position.

So as I've been catching up and this really just seems to have devolved into a giant flame war hasn't it? I thought you guys were better than petty insults and rudeness. This is disappointing guys. So, to try and continue some debate, I have a few questions about Meetra. You keep using her battle against Traya as evidence to show how amazing she was with a saber, yet you leave out her wound allowed her to be untouched by Traya's main weapon, Force Drain. That seems pretty circumstantial to me. Especially when we see that after her wound was healed she got decimated by Nyriss. Also, I found that does a very good break down of Atris vs Nomi, and I think it will help to define some of Nomi's capabilities more. It also serves to show how Nomi will fare against Meetra, as Meetra beat Atris and we know how that fight went down. It also makes me very glad to see people using Shaak Ti and Vos as people that can be used to determine how good of a duelist someone is. My work didn't go unnoticed after all

Wow, this has progressed very quickly. I figured I'd point this out now, as I doubt I will be posting anytime before Sunday (busy, busy, busy). The Hutt's aren't going to have any power on Coruscant. That's not to say they can't gain a following and use their charm, skill, and influence, but other than that, they won't play a prominent role here.This is the birthplace of the Black Sun- no Hutt loyalty to be found. Yes, Ziro, and yes Durga, but both took orders from the real boss. Black Sun members are the reigning crime family on Coruscant, and Black Sun doesn't work with Hutt's unless ordered to do so. On the matter of smuggling, I think this will prove an issue as well. As noted in the Shadow of the Empire source book, Xizor always had to be extremely careful bringing Vigo's to his palace, in the Senate District. If the Hutt's try to hire smuggler to do this, I feel they will alert the Resistance.

Nope. I showed comics as well, but he still wasn't taken seriously. But it's not your fault. And you did send me a lot of information on Black Sun and Durge. Just keep it ready if we do indeed do a Loser's Bracket. And it's not your fault either, Silenceo. I was also a little lazy and refused to search for a few quotes, so....

Sad? Because of how amazing they were? Or did it remind you to much of my defeating of you

Wolf, where was that during my Kaggath? I told everyone he could fight, but no one believed me:(

Ha. That's exactly what she said at the beginning of my Kaggath. "I'll stay neutral", she said. And look at all the arguments she made for him. And then compare the to the arguments she made for me. A traitor I say! A traitor!

You don't understand the anger I have for myself for that match. I had this huge post detailing all the wonderful droids I had at my disposal, and I didn't post it. It completely slipped my mind. It probably would have won the match for me. No offense, but someone of this droids would have solved problems that went unsolved. I had droids that would have killed Cipher Agents, and droids that destroy anything within 10 meters. Droids that could have prevented any infiltration. Droids that could ave killed Dooku (with some help and luck). That pretty much wins the Kaggath for me. Oh well. You still did an amazing job and won. Just know you won't be moving any further

Yep. I wouldn't have even minded if Dooku had his cash. Xizor would still have had faaaaaaarrrrrrr deeper pockets. And check your PM's.

It upsets me greatly that this rule will go into effect and one of the named persons listed in it's argument will not be gaining from it. Runner's Up Bracket anyone? Exhibitions would be fun for us as well...

Ooooo. Totally missed this thread. I'll start to create my character and catch up with things. And Rayla, I like the avatar

I'm going to be that annoying person, but I vote to have a Runner's Up Bracket.

There's a quote in one of the Han Solo Trilogy books that explains Hutt's resistants to blaster bolts, although I can't remember which one it is. My guess would be Hutt Gambit, but I don't have time at the moment to check. However, I have this, "A Hutt's skin was perhaps its greatest defense as the epidermis was able to resist all but the most corrosive of chemical substances. Furthermore oil and mucus sweat made a Hutt difficult to grasp as its body was slippery to hold. Should anyone manage to grab hold of the body or manage to puncture the skin, heavy layers of blubber and muscle protected the vital organs from harm. In addition, the slimy coating of sweat and mucus protected them from either chemical burns or heat. Hutts were resistant to many poisons and diseases and seldom fell ill. It was also claimed that the species was indigestible with creatures such as the sarlacc facing indigestion from swallowing a Hutt. As a result, such creatures forcibly expelled their kind instead of eating them which was a trait that saved some Hutts from death. Their body odor was noted for being strong enough to upset a sensitive human stomach." I'll try to find the quote later, but if I were you, I wouldn't pass it off so carelessly. If their is one thing I know about Star Wars, it would be Hutts. Believe me here. I can guarantee my knowledge of Hutt's is greater than your own. In fact, I ask you, what sources do you have to back up your claims? Ziro, an oddity I already explained, and gameplay, which is not cannon. And, which can be explained none the less- the smuggler, trooper, agent, and Bounty Hunter are all exceptional shots, and all us high quality weaponry. It wouldn't be surprising at all if one of them killed a Hutt, as they are more than capable of doing what is necessary to kill one. And did Jabba not party while Luke fought him? Did Aruk not party? Durga? Ord Mantell isn't exactly an orderly place. Again, I say, this is autonomous. Ziro is a party thrower, and has the means to throw a party. It would be explicitly against his character to not throw one. The only time we have seen him not partying is when he was in jail, and on the run. He is in neither situation here. And how, exactly, does Lumiya counter the Anazati? Oppo Rancisis barely did. Tholme and Quinlan only did as Tholme was trained by them. As for being cut off from supplies, I again say the Malevolence would not be in PH control for long.

I'd just like to throw in here that the Separatist movement was actually a very small percentage of the population. Only a few radicals ever actually "seceded" and fought against the Republic. The vast majority of Mantellians didn't approve of their government, yes, but only complained. They had no issue with the Republic- only their corrupt elected officials. There were sympathizers, yes, but again, a sympathizer and a Separatist are two very different things. And I would argue against the GA standing for the Republic. Is the GA not a combination of the Empire and the Republic? This would appeal to both loyalists and Separatists (being backed by the Empire). I think the GA would actually be more appealing, because of Garm and Tholme. They appeal to the loyalists (being Republicans) and to the Separatists (being Rebels). You also should note that all of the GA commanders have earned their title through actions, honesty, and all around leadership. Unlike Lumiya, who deceived, plotted, and lied her way to power. Sounds like someone the population already hated. As for the Underworld, I again would say Ziro wasn't a smart choice. The man is too opulent to stay in a locked room only making holocalls and listening to Lumiya. This is a Hutt that parties, listens to J*zz-Jazz music, has romantic affairs with said musicians, betrays, and is all around a man of grandeur. He will not simply work for Lumiya- he will partying, drawing attention to himself, working only when necessary. He will surround himself with criminals, musicians, smugglers- and will make an easy target for an Anzati. I think Ziro is also a bad choice because he is perhaps the only Hutt to ever be killed by a blaster shot. Hutt's have naturally fat, tough, skin, with their internal organs being deep within. In order to kill one with a blaster, it needs to be high quality, point blank range, and accurate (hit the same spot multiple times). The fact that Ziro died from two hits makes me suspect he wasn't in the greatest shape- even for a Hutt. Perhaps sickness from smoking, or some other illness. I mean, Sy Snootles only used a holdout blaster. Then you have the Anzati. A people who can completely hide their Force sensitivity/presence, who can kill Jedi, and who we have seen target a Hutt before-Jabba. I see no reason why a few Anzati couldn't kill Ziro.

Saleucami, Bakura ("What Tholme and his agents were able to predict, however, were Dooku's movements. Along with Sora Bulq, Tholme waited on Bakura for the arrival of the Count, and the opportunity to launch his ambush. However, Dooku, now a Sith Lord, was able to defeat both Jedi Masters with ease.)", and the beginning of the Vos's mission. Dooku did eventually use Vos against Tholme, but like the first Dooku/Tholme engagement, Tholme faked his death and escaped. But that is still 2:1 in Tholme's favor.

Doubt they would hold a grudge? Or maybe they where simply looking out for number 1. That Death Star doesn't need to be coming near Bothwui, if you know what I mean. Their philosophy and all. And that's not actually true. You only need a few people to actually infiltrate- the others cover you, and make sure no one else finds you. Tech, slicing, surveillance, distractions- I wouldn't call that dead weight. They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals "They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals." I'd like to see the source for them all receiving state of the art stealth tech and stealth training, cause I don't see it. I see some equipment, but nothing "state of the art". Not even a stealth belt. And nowhere on the wiki does it mention extensive training. Source? A nickname means nothing. All it means is they wear black armor.

Considering the bridge of the Malevolcence was it's communication hub, the Malevolence also has no way of communicating with its crew or the rest of the fleet. That would make it quite easy to board via a StealthX, and take over. Then, once it was in the hands of Tholme, better repair droids could be used to fix it- like the LE-series. And moved? Haha Some two bit assassin? Try an Anzati assassin. You know, a centuries old killer, like the one that hunted Oppo Rancisis, Quinlan, Jabba- the list goes on. These are Force Users as well, but they are masters of concealment. They can use TK, manipulate minds, and hold people in a TK grip that is almost impossible to break. Even Ziro would lose, with his Hutt mind trick protection. And IG-86's? TK and pure skill. These assassins have killed or worked over Jedi Councilmen before. Considering the 501st was made up of the best troops, I'm sure a few of them are stealth experts. Vader wanted the best- it didn't matter what their skills where. And Tholme isn't just some everyday tactician. He fought wits and cunning against Dooku and won (not in actual combat), and survived the Purge. That alone demands cunning. And IIRC none of Lumyia's schemes ever worked out- Tholme on the other hand succeed quite often. She's a great agent, but she never went up against a mind lie Tholme. However, Tholme went up against, and won multiple times, against Dooku, who is arguably better than Lumiya. He won't need to. He will be revealed only when he wants to be. Commandos won't make it in the air if the Malevolence is taken. Garm and Palleon would obviously alert Tholme/the new crew if GA where coming. If not, fire on anything that moves. A couple fighters? Dead. Sure the force would start weak. But remember, the GA will have access to much better repair/maintenance droids. They can repair much faster than your forces. If you don't use Savage properly, you don't deserve him No, but really. Isn't that the only reason Luke didn't defeat her, like, 8 times? He fought her on numerous occasions, but never won b/c of the whip. Then he learns, and slaughters her.

Beni, you and I both know that this a crock of BS. You're trying to tell me that the Bothans, the very people that out do Imperial Intelligence in information, never learned that their system was attacked? And that their attacker is on the enemy team? We should also note that not all Storm Commandos where infiltrators, Beni. "A unit of Storm Commandos could range from 4 to 40 commandos in strength, divided into four equal parts. The first were standard commandos trained and equipped as line units. The second were assault specialists with additional training on how to operate vehicle and artillery blasters. The third were designated saboteurs and particularly resourceful even for Storm Commandos, given extra training in stealth, demolition and countering security systems. The last part were dedicated tech units meant to repair (or jury-rig) a wide array of technology, often assisting saboteurs." They all had stealth training, but only a few where used for infiltrating and sabotage. So, that would be ten men. The rest are merely commandos with some stealth training, but nothing special.

Do you have the source that's from? Just for my sanity?! I can't find it in my collection?!?! And I would agree with the proximity argument, although yours does make sense. But does Lumiya have any feats of Force Sense? Because all this proves is that Bulq was quite adapt at using Force Sense, which would make sense, as he was also capable of hiding his own presence (Rancisis, anyone?).

I would appreciate it I think I know what quote your referencing, but I can't recall where it's from, and thus, can't find it.

While I'm sure this could happen, it would still take time, time that the PH doesn't have. Garm and Palleon know that the Malevolence is crippled, and know that it is more than capable of destroying their fleet if not stopped. They would act immediately to either destroy it, or, even more likely, to take it over. Tholme, being the genius he is, would likely concoct the plan to take over the Malevolence. If taken, it could easily destroy the remaining PH fleet, and and add onto the rest of the GA fleet, making the fleet unstoppable. And, considering Grevious would be on the ground at this point, nothing is really going to stop him. Sure, Carbonite War Droids are strong, but Tholme could likely evade those, or wreck them with TK. Hell, if Jaina joins him, together they would make short work of the guards. And I think Ziro is an interesting Hutt to use. Mainly because he doesn't bring anything to the table that other Hutts don't have, except his ability to be assassinated by gunshot. And considering Tholmes assassin background, it could easily be arranged to hire someone to remove the Hutt. While this is true, they would act as a perfect distraction for the 501st, which is made up of specialists. Some are undoubtedly infiltrators. Imperial agents, sadly, loses out to Anzati. Everyday. All day. She might consider all the angles, but Tholme is more than a match for her. He was trained by the master of masters; the assassin of assassins, and has fought and killed more Anzati than likely anyone in galactic history (they rarely fight, and almost never lose). And do you not think Tholme will realize that the Bothans are the weak link? That also ties into taking over the Malevolence- take it down, and the Bothans, as a people, survive. And they stay with the Alliance. And I believe Tholme is more than capable of staying in the shadows. Imperial Intel has never found him, and Grievous, Savage, or Ziro never had any contact with him. He is a spymater- not an easy person to be found. Hell he hid from Imperial Intelligence during the Purge, and was never found or killed. He died of old age. All of these things are going to have to come into the system. All of these things can be removed form the equation once the Malevolence is taken over, and GA space superiority is secured. Hell, just leave the Malevolence, and send the fleet to Geonosis or Bastion, neutralizing the threat of any supplies/agents coming in. And IIRC Lumiya's saving grace was her lightwhip- and I'm sure Jaina/Tholme know how to fight against one.