Your response about being a BioWare employee is absolutely hilarious lol. 10/10. Anyway, on to it then. The OP’s initial statement was that he felt as though his eyes are constantly hunting all over his quickbars to search for the next ability that has proc’d. He does not know the rotation and has not done the work to commit it to memory. Due to this feeling, he believes that the solution to this problem is ability pruning. Albeit ability pruning that does not take away from the utility and class identity. I explained to him that a lack of practice could be why he’s feeling overwhelmed. I also asserted that his inability to perform the way he would like does not constitute grounds for the wholesale destruction of classes that have grown to become what they are over the course of 10 years. I understand that he did not advocate burning the system down, however what BioWare presented as a Jedi Guardian on the PTS was exactly that. Another poster disagreed, and that’s where you cherrypicked my comment. You omitted everything before that statement that would have helped you understand the conversation and by extension my own viewpoint. Learning the rotation simply allows you to focus on other aspects of this game. Until you as a player do this, you may feel as though the game is providing you with too much information too quickly. Ability pruning will not change this fact, but it will remove nuance and complexity from the game. I’ve included links to my previous posts so you can come to understand my thought process: https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956511#post9956511 https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956503#post9956503 https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956623#post9956623 https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9961863#post9961863 https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9732384#post9732384 https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9730030#post9730030 I don't expect you to read them as you didn't bother to read page 1 of this thread, so I've summarized my opinion on the matter. When I speak of making the game competitive (you’ll have to read my posts for clarity), I’m speaking of the nuance that makes player interaction with other players, and in turn the game; unique. The things that separate the good from the great. The knowledge that allows you to clear a NiM raid or wipe to a one-shot ability. The clutch moves that allow you to survive what would have been a fatal blow and counter with your own. None of these things are tied to a rotation like you’ve implied (but they are tied to utility and abilities that should be base line that BioWare has considered removing). However, mastering a rotation is required to be able to focus on the nuance of the game. This is irrespective of how long or short that rotation may be. If you as a player are worried about your rotation instead of everything else going on around you, you’re wasting time and you’re going to die (in PvP or NiM raids). You need to be able to adapt in the moment and reposition while dealing damage; all the while knowing where to restart your rotation for maximum DPS output. These things come with practice. My opinion on the matter in no way shape or form implies that the entirety of the game can be boiled down and distilled to “know your rotation”. You came up with that on your own, and how you got there from what I said is beyond me. It is the aforementioned that makes classes like Fury Marauder and Vengeance Juggernaut easy to learn but hard to master. You’re not an idiot, so I imagine you know all of this yourself already. It’s fine to take what I’ve said at face value. I’ll always stand by my assertions. However, it offends me when you create your own argument, draw your own conclusion, and then try to pass it off as my own because you were too lazy to read page 1 of this thread. If BioWare wants to get rid of the requirement to know or comprehend what I've just said in order to make the game more accessible to new players they'll probably have to change the game engine and input style. Both of which are better than burning the game to the ground and hoping players will just accept it.

I'm not impressed when you show up two weeks later to take one of my comments out of context in an attempt to prove a point that literally no one was trying to make (least of all me). You've created (and debated) your own argument for the sake of saying your piece. However, it's disingenuous of you to imply that your argument is actually something that I believe, implied, or would ever say. You're way off base my friend. You're welcome to read page 1 so you can actually understand what we were talking about. Or, peruse my post history to understand my stance on where the games nuance and complexity lies. Thanks for the laugh though lol.

I agree that choice should be a thing, but it should be to the benefit of the player and the class. I think the issue at the moment is the choice that Bioware is offering is between abilities that are class defining at worst, and game breaking at best. Choosing between Guarded by the Force, Force Camo, or Blade Blitz is absurd. It would be more beneficial if Bioware created new abilities or augmented abilities that could be selected in lieu of current abilities. That is assuming that choice / player agency is something that they care about.

No offense alucinorm, but you sound like you're incredibly far removed from the current state of this game. It shouldn't be difficult for you to understand that the abilities that aren't important to you are absolutely crucial to other people who indulge in more difficult content. They add complexity to the game that you so readily dismiss because it isn't something that you care to indulge in. But there in lies the kicker. As the game is right now you can choose not to use certain abilities and coast through the SWTOR experience. You have a choice. With the changes that have been released on the PTS there is no choice for others who enjoy complexity to continue playing at a high level. Players stand to be divested of meaningful choices, and you're fine with it because you want to be rewarded with the same performance as everyone else, but while doing less work. That sounds a bit entitled don't you think?

If you pvp or raid the ability gives players considerable outplay potential. Personally I'm speaking from a pvp perspective. It can make or break a fight.

I'm calling it now. Mercs, Ops, and Snipers won't lose anything. Mercs are going to be double rocket-outing all over the map with the blazing bolts slow going and all melee classes are going to be stationary targets Snipers will still have diversion accuracy debuff, multiple knockbacks, and that speed boost spam w/ entrench. Ops will get an additional roll, longer lasting reflect, increased healing in dps spec, and an additional stun that procs a tactical advantage.

Time to kill is fine at the moment. It gives you enough time to react and employ some type of counter play. This goes double for 8v8s. If we're all dying like it's a match of "one shot one kill" on Call of Duty then tanks and healers are going to become even more important. Even moreso if DPS classes are going to be purged of their utility. Then comes the monumental task of trying to balance melee vs ranged. If we're all dying immediately and have no DCDs, damage output is going to need to be adjusted for time on target. Accuracy debuff times, ect. There's no way a rework of this magnitude is going to be completed in 6 months and be any good.

He actually did mention it once in another thread. His statement was something along the lines of "8 to 12 including all abilities for a combat rotation". Honestly i'm glad he hasn't repeated it. It's ludicrous to think that this game could reduce the amount of necessary inputs to that degree, yet allow players to retain the level of control they currently have over their character and the battlefield around them. If they changed the game to something action oriented like Tera or Black desert I could see that being possible. Even then 8 to 12 is a stretch. The only things he's said that I can agree with is that if the dev team puts an incredible amount of thought into this it's possible that they won't completely kill the game. Oh and what's on the PTS is crap. It's possible that it could work *if and only if* they clearly define what abilities make each class unique. When it comes to ability pruning, they should be combining things that naturally go together including the effects. Ex: Vengeful Slam, Sweeping Slash, (Smash for the other specs). We already have cooldown modifications for Vengeful Slam, and Sweeping Slash applies trauma or something like that. Combine the two and modify the cooldown so it can be used frequently. I like sweeping slash for applying trauma or pulling people out of stealth since it has low CD, but seeing it go doesn't fundamentally change the identity and the way the class plays. Removing guard, intercede, taunts, defensives, and mad dash, etc does. The same thing could be done with Saber Throw and Vicious Throw / Hew. Make it one ability with no minimum range that deals bonus damage when 'x' condition is met or the enemy health is below a certain %. Lower the cooldown so it can be used as an opener and part of the rotation. Combine animations so point blank looks like Hew (which is epic) an long range looks like Saber Throw, or some other combination of the two. They could do more, but all of this sounds more difficult than just balancing what already exists. It took them ages just to fix Warmonger. If they have issues with multiple abilities on all classes you can forget about it being repaired within a years time.

My friend you've just described what already exists. Rage feels like a Juggernaut, Vengeance feels like a Juggernaut, as does Immortal. While all of these specs are similar, they have pretty stark differences as well. Rage more burst, Vengeance has DOTs, AOE, cc immunity on leap, and completely different animations. Immortal has higher DR, aegis + crushing blow, and an extra DCD "invincible". This doesn't take into account the passives built into the specs as well. As it sits, they're all very different and they play like it. The problem with the path that they're taking is that they're breaking up what it is that is essential to the "feel" of Juggernauts / Guardians. The core of the class is force choke, force leap (with reset), force push, saber throw / hew, mad dash, intercede, saber reflect, enraged defense, guards, and taunts at the very least. An honorable mention to chilling scream and warmonger. The essence, the "feel" of a Juggernaut is tied to its utility. It's what makes it more than a copy of a Marauder with one lightsaber. Breaking up its utility in order to provide a sense of customization is asinine at best. It's like making a Marauder choose between force camo or undying rage, but not both. If Bioware wants to address / break up anything, they should be addressing the crazy amount of roots, stuns, slows, and extreme speed boosts. Make more of those class and spec specific, create new abilities, or give players the ability to choose a combination of those from 1-80 to build a truly custom class.

It isn't my rotation, it's the totality of the gaming experience. A barrier to entry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There are very few things about swtor in its current state that are hard to grasp. The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind. Also for OP, this could help you out with Fury Mara if you haven't seen it already. https://vulkk.com/2020/01/12/swtor-6-0-fury-marauder-guide-by-anatessia/

This^ To the devs: Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not. It does not. The main benefit to playing a Juggernaut over a Marauder is the utility that comes with it. Intercede, force choke, force push (with force charge reset), chilling scream, saber reflect, enraged defense, saber ward, mad dash, saber throw or hew, guard, aoe and single target taunt, ect. These are things that are critical to the identity of the class. A well played Juggernaut is a defender in motion (DPS or Tank). This is why a lot of Juggernaut mains play Juggernaut over the other classes. Yea, as Jugg DPS I don't do as much damage as other DPS specs, but I can do all of the aforementioned. Doing this and doing this well keeps me competitive. It sure as hell isn't my damage or survivability. If you remove the classes utility it will never "feel" like a Guardian again. Also, not having access to intercede, mad dash, (and more than one dcd) on the DPS spec is a death sentence in PVP. You would have to gut the other classes just to make this one remotely playable, and no one wants that. Skank tanks definitely need to go, but the utility *is* the classes identity. If nothing else keep in mind, the class needs to be able to "move like a force user" if it is to "feel" like a force user.

It isn't my intention to offend, but if Rage or Fury seem like they have too many buttons for you it's probably practice that you need. I typically run 36 hotkeys (bound) and I can do everything I need to do without looking at my bar, keyboard, or mouse. You as a player can choose to add or remove certain things to clean up the look of your UI visually. I don't think that other people need to have their choices removed (and the game dumbed down) simply because you have a hard time following what's going on. A player's ability to handle attacking, defending, positioning, and assisting allies is part of what makes this game competitive. Removing this aspect seems like they're getting rid of the skill / competitive nature of the game (to me). Instead of being able to do all of these things well and shine as a player, we all just get basic functionality and that's it. From a PVP perspective this sounds awful. A recommendation to help you if you haven't done so already, hotkey your rotation and practice it until you can execute it without looking. Then you should really only be thinking about when you can saber throw, use a utility, or a dcd.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown

Haven't seen one in awhile. I think i've hit in the 90s when the moons align. That's mostly sniper / pt territory from what i've seen though. Rage Jugg: https://i.imgur.com/Kdgouuc.jpg

Leave it to a civilian to think his idiotic decisions in life somehow put him in a position to educate and lead others. Freely offering unsolicited advice to anyone unfortunate enough to end up in the same thread as him. Aoca you need to take a moment and realize that the average swtor player age is 30+. You aren't dealing with a bunch of children who don't know a damn thing about life. Most of us have been around long enough to endure hardship and loss in some way shape or form. Your experiences are unique to you, but that feeling of suffering and loss is not. Your arrogance, preconceptions, and entitlement are on display for everyone to see. Assuming that since we partake in PvP ( or we're on the internet ) we've a greater chance of being morally bankrupt. Get outta here with that nonsense. That narrative in your head is part of the reason you manage to talk down to just about everyone on the forums as though they somehow lack the life experience to be your equal. For f*ck's sake, do us a favor and get over yourself.

This. Also you have to understand OP, making a post like this is going to bring all the operative mains to the thread to defend the class. If you play SWTOR pvp, you know operatives are over tuned and have been for quite some time. Good luck getting anyone who loves the class to admit it though.

Pretty much this. The class is tons of fun in regs but you can forget about playing it in ranked. I think skank is boring af ( and broken ), but if you're going to play ranked its probably the best way to enjoy it and not be a liability to your team. If you want to play melee dps try PT or Fury Marauder with Defel spliced genes + force bound.

The devs play mercs and snipers. Explains a lot really.

They're decent. What you'll find out when you start dueling is that most classes teeter on the edge of balanced and broken, and they toe this line quite well. They also tend to do this better than Juggernaut. A duel between skilled players can more often than not be decided by 1 or 2 mistakes / well timed defensives. There are also a few classes with distinct borderline unfair advantages, and this will require you to pretty much always be on top of your game if you want survive and compete as a dps Juggernaut. Ex: Snipers can't be leapt to, roots / slows almost never work on them. That entrench spam thing they do to get unlimited run speed and resistance to cc is obnoxious. Double rocket out is a thing w/blazing bolts slow. Chain lightning cc, warmonger being broken, saber ward ineffectiveness against certain damage types, endure pain removing health, and Juggernaut predictability are just a few of the things holding the class back. This list could go on for ages. That said I thoroughly enjoy the class and I love dueling on it. Just understand that we have more shortcomings than strengths in this meta. You'll have to get creative if you want to win.

Fix warmonger.

Rage is always fun! I pretty much just ran around screaming "stun me daddy" the entire match.

I'll just leave this here https://imgur.com/prpU3a1

Played 7 matches yesterday. Got VS twice, huttball twice, AHG, and two civil wars. Fine by me really. If we could choose warzones I would just uncheck huttball and queue for everything else.

The devs play mercs man. Why else do you think the class tanks better than juggs and has double rocket out. In all seriousness though, there's no reason warmonger should still be broken. They need to fix this before they bother fixing huttball maps.

Skanks and ED baby, Skanks and ED lmao.