He's lying. This was the point that I was trying to have people infer. BH gets the most +eff at +15, and Jedi Knight/Sith Inq get +2 crit to slicing on one companion. And actually - those too, aren't guaranteed losses, they end up at... (looks up mission data)... between 10 and 24 credits per minute profit overall. The point I and others have been making is that - that level of "profit" from a pure profit crewskill is laughable. And unless you can literally farm nodes with no impediment, other nodes also return more when you include the GTN. Most likely - the actual credits that people "generate" come from their actions within the game - and this is what they base their "findings" off of. Not the actual results of slicing. Since - when the question was posed to him, he WOULDN'T answer. Knowing, that he'd either be called out with data verifying him to be full of untruths, or proving the case - that Slicing doesn't generate a lot of cash at all.

So, basically - you can't answer honestly, knowing that you know the data, and I know the data, and in terms of credits per minute.. It doesn't go much over 30, for running missions. You rely on a "luck" based element to sell, that requires a functioning economy to sell, and tout that as a solid state of proof. Which - not everyone gets 1 an hour. I've tried, and I've got a day without seeing one. I saw some schems. But = I did not get a guaranteed schematic every hour. You cannot answer honestly, you avoid the truth of why slicing is bad, and tout how awesome it is, but when faced with a simple, and valid question, you avoid and refuse to answer. A rank 1 missioner, will net MORE credits (in terms of pure credits), than a 400 slicer doing missions. You *may* well crit, and get lucky. But at the end of the day, that Rank 1 missioner, will generate more credits than you do, doing equal activities. I know you're so Pro BW, and Pro Slicing, but you can't accept the simple reality, that as professions go, it sucks. Ironically - as a crafter, I'm in their camp - I'd love to see slicing get buffed, but then, I didn't see it as a threat to my income. It DIDN'T generate more than I could earn in other professions, and it didn't break the game. Only people like you, who feel that earning 30 credits per MINUTE is a great thing at mastered skill level. At the end of the day, the DATA, doesn't lie. Your anecdotes are full of holes, yet - all of the slicing mission results, will show exactly what it generates, and what it generated. Wasn't that far out of the ordinary for a level 50 was it now? So - you able to answer the question honestly, and confirm the data that's been put in by all, or you feel the need to lie, or just avoid it, since you know - as well as I do, that it's not great. I generate more "credit worth" in missions than slicing can, at lower ranks. I generate the same "credits" at rank 1. How exactly is slicing not the lame runt of the litter in the crewskill lineup?

Sorry - what exactly do you make missioning in SLICING again (IN CREDITS). You're guaranteed that are you? Every hour you get at LEAST one? Glad you're on a server with a functioning economy. When I just looked up the missions they were selling for under what the GTN says they should, on all missions, not one over 5k. And again - this is assuming you can sell. There is NO market on this server. I'm regularly buying stacks of materials for under 500c. I mean whole stacks too - and crafting them. Like 1-2 a day and able to vendor them. Again though - you're still not answering the question. Can do you do it - WHAT IS YOUR NET GAIN IN CREDITS FROM SLICING MISSIONS. Since it's primary function is to generate - guess what Sunshin... CREDITS. So, answer the question. EDIT: Actually - I just found 3 x 340 mission at over 10k, although the guy has been undercutting himself it would seem. So not sure what's going on there.

Sorry - you're avoiding the question - again. How much of that comes from purely missioning? See, any other mission I run, having made notes of things, I make a certain amount of credits per minute. You're saying, at level 50, you can run around and slice node and farm etc - and make credits. Guess what, so can ANYONE. But - in terms of like for like, you're left sorely behind a RANK 1 missioner. Oh wait, can't use that as a valid arguement because chops here won't do that. Because you know - the second you do, you realise just how much junk slicing really is. It's *not* worth the crewskill slot. BUT YOU WON'T COMPARE LIKE FOR LIKE. Carry on though, seriously - as I said, games need folk who'll accept mediocrity and be content.

If you're happy making the same credits missioning at 400 skills as a rank 1 missioner in others classes, bully for you. We do need people who'll be satisfied with any level of mediocrity or drivel handed to them. That's what keeps games running. Doesn't change the basics that Slicing Missions CPM is lower than what can be earned from a Scav/Cybertech doing rank 1/2 missions. By all means, keep spouting the nonsense though, the CPM recorded for Slicing has been pretty much recorded accurately on more than enough Spreadsheets to validate the dismay of others.

I suspect - that both points are related to the stack exploit. Basically - Bioware realised early that VASTLY more credits were coming into the system than they intended, were unaware of the stack exploit, did not have the best tools in all MMO's to check where credits were coming from (else I think a few other professions would have had the hit instead) and slicing was a popular crewskill that was being used to generate credits. It's why it was given the hack job attention initially, and why later - more nodes were removed from the game world. Because lots more money was coming in than BW knew - before they finally got around to fixing the real source of the problem. The silence - well, that's because I believe Bioware - don't know what to say on this topic. It's not acceptable in the MMO world to say - "Actually we messed up" and come clean about the state of things. And yes - for all those people out there who think just because it makes a profit missioning that it's fixed - that's a fubar mentality. If something at max level earns me the credits of a level 20something grinding mobs, it's not working as intended - I am staggered as to how people can see this as valid. Or worse, if my level 18 Cybertech, with 200 skill earns more credits per minute doing scavenging missions and then cyberteching the mats to greens and vendoring. And this is comparing it to the the recorded data on the spreadsheets. Seriously - I think they saw massive credit influx into the economy, couldn't track it, saw people saying how broken slicing was - realised MANY people had slicing, because it was a useful part of the burgeoning economy and hacked it - thinking that would stop the credit influx, as well as the forum whines. It didn't stop the credit influx, and the forums became more noisy with arguements saying both sides. And to anyone out there who says: "Oh but Dorkfrey, 100k at level 15 is wrong!!!" Get over yourselves - it was chump change in the grand scheme of things, please see outside your own tiny microcosm of perception. My level 18 Cybertech will get there shortly, if I can be bothered to play him at all. Or if I don't get tempted by things like cargo space/inventory.

The fact that you think enlightening an unknowing customer - is a *bad* thing makes me want to disregard everything you've written. If Bioware had explained a few facts/figures - and had discourse with us, I suspect this topic would have been done with ages ago. The fact that pre-nerf slicing income at 400 skill and level 50, was laughable to the amount of credits that are generated by level 50's in the course of "normal" play - makes me think there's no way that they could give "the hard truth" or even "math" about it. The single biggest problem we've had, is people at startup, who didn't know entirely what they were doing with crafting - who often made losses - who saw slicers making bank, and flipped out. They could not see - that their actions - "could" generate vastly larger sums of credits than they had currently - and only saw "free money". There's a reason why I'm sticking with Artifice/Arch/TH (because I think Bioware will sort out the professions into some kind of balance eventually) - and that's because the "net credit worth" of the results of my missions, generates me more than slicing's "free press" could buy me if I had to purchase the things I generate otherwise. For example: Brocart Filament Missions (my rank 4 recipes)... Mission costs say 1300 for a Rich one. I get between 18-35 Filament returned to me. To buy the filament off the vendor costs 150c per. If the mission succeeds, I haven't made less than 1400c "profit" on what's a relatively quick mission. Highest "profit" or rather, expense saved on that mission has been 3900 credits. Thirties aren't unusual returns on that though. Okay - now if I Vendor off the Brocart immediately, I make a loss, however, if I use it to make something, or sell it on the GTN cheaper than the vendor sells it for, I can still make vastly higher profit than pre-nerf Slicing could. And Because those who had Slicing for the credits, they had to "buy" materials, because they were missing a tradeskills for self-sustain, and if they ONLY had Gathering skills + Slicing, then if they wanted to buy shiny purples, they had to pay for them, which covered the cost of RE's after a few sales - now Slicing earns less per hour than my level 18 Crafter who just missions and vendors his stuff. If you look at all the missions - they can do this, and benefit the crafter far more than "free printing press" ever did, but all people saw was the "credits" and spazzed. And as a result, it affected the flourishing economy badly. Also - I don't think you've got your head around the problem or ramifications of it in the slightest. That's okay - you're not the only one in this thread either. And no - My main and blokey with cash and credits isn't a Slicer (I have one - but he's barely played at all, and I don't bother slicing with him either - since it's not worth the time/effort mostly - if I want to make bank, or be profitable, I do Scavenging or UWT with him).

No, I played from Launch, well, a week after - was slow getting my copy delivered. As I said - your perceptions are really out of joint. No, WoW has used the badge system for the final pieces of content for the highest level of dungeon/raid gear for the past three expansions. You didn't actually tend to get any of the TBC gear through normal levelling, or LK gear through normal levelling - you not only had to run dungeons but had to run level capped/restricted Heroics to get them. At least until the "points" system came in. Even so - that STILL ONLY APPLIES TO DUNGEONING, not tripping up over a rock, or killing a random baddie you walk past. I know what game I was playing, and I know entirely how it worked in the past while I was playing it. You however, cannot grasp the differences which have revolutionised the way we appreciate the game. In this game - commendations form another currency based around our actions within the environment. Not JUST for one small part of the game. Everything we do, short of just mob grinding or crafting, generates commendations. This has not been done before. And certainly not in WoW. Except in your head. And you will not be able to realise the difference - as you've already displayed. To be honest, I wrote a fairly long piece here, but deleted it, seeing as my perceptions of the game were totally different to yours. I had legendary and exceptional drops, and went hunting Krayt/Dath Witches/Imperials/etc. Some things were a grind, like grinding out Krayt for a Legendary set of scales to use as a component for armour. I never felt this oppressive crafting regime. I found most crafters were trying to undercut each other because there were plenty more crafters out there - who were springing up - making newer and better gear, for cheaper than the old. I agree that the game was a crafter centric environment, I don't agree in the slightest with your belief that all crafters were trying to control the world though, and I cannot see it here either. But alas - that's a difference between perceptions one would guess. You feel that crafting is bad and wants to ruin your world, and crafters think, we'd like to be able to make and sell fun gear - that's desirable by the populace.

Just Gathering Mission + Crafting - nets me pretty much ~100cpm, even including the costs of mission/time to craft. This is assuming it gives me only normal results from missioning (not crits/fails). It stops skilling you up after a while, but - there are a few recipes out there that will net you proceeds as *high* as slicing brings in now, just vendoring greens. You've got to find them, but there's 2 in Scavenging/Cyber that I've found so far, 1 in Art/Arch, and I suspect 2 in Synth/Art (I'll check those out in more depth later). Even so, if I'm looking just to profit, I can pretty much guarantee not losing money while skilling atm. It's a more convoluted route, granted. It takes more thinking - also. But, in terms of what it can return, just as high as slicing is now (You have to be very picky about your missions). But - when I'm done doing the 1-400 grind, I'll always have that as a backup if I need it (although - I don't see why I'd need to earn 100cpm with a craft, when I can do PvP or grind missions/dailies etc, which net SERIOUS cash), or - I'll be able to profit making other gear (eventually - if I get decent recipes from raiding). When I send third companion out - that's usually for either blue/purples or gifts - to try and improve my own gear (i.e. RE'ing to get Prototypes) or going for Companion Gifts/GTNables. (keeping one when I'm in combat - am Guardian so early third companion - but can't deploy all three at once yet with him). This is with a lowbie that I've been playing around with when bored of grinding PvP missions and storyline. I pretty much keep him in fleet and either play with the GTN or do odd crafting missions to see what routes I can take. Don't misunderstand me - I know it's a capped earnings, but then again, so it slicing. It does however, keep that toon ticking over, whenever I bother to play him. Some of the time, I don't even bother with the gathering mission, and/or just buy off the GNT, his Cybertech is ~200 odd now (depending on what I get as mission results it's between ~85 cpm and ~125cpm depending on the recipe - I think it averages out at around ~100cpm, which is higher than my slicer gets from missioning at 400), and his Scavenging barely 100, barely had to hit nodes, just enough to get level 1+2 missions, and it's fairly easy profit. The GNT probably wouldn't be working as well as it does at the moment for doing this if the market (on this server) wasn't anywhere near as tanked as it is, other servers may be having a better time of things (and not able to reproduce my cash grinds - hell, even the Imps might be having it easier since there's a LOT more of them than on this server. If I played him more, he'd have capped out level 2 Scavenging Missions, but he's not a toon I use a lot (he's levelling up with a friend of mine who's not around a lot). But as far as I've been able to see, haven't made losses at all on Cybertech except when trying to RE or to skill up further (about 25c a skillpoint cost I think). He can just tick over on the small recipes though (since he's only level 18 atm, haven't tried to push him higher).

But running a mission, and then crafting them, and vendoring them, if you have the right recipes can. While giving you skillups. If you pick the right mission combinations. And if you run missions that give you an essential item, that you'd have to "buy" to craft, you net a return vastly beyond what Slicing offered. But - people cannot see beyond "OMG, Slicing makes credits" point. But that's okay - yet again, you've displayed not only your ignorance but also your lack of "perception".

To be honest, I'd rather send my companions out doing something like TH or Arch or Scavenging, or UWT, or... than Slicing, since the "net value" it returns is much higher than Slicing gave me. Yes - that means I have to pick my missions carefully. That means I have to know what I'm doing. And not always RE everything, instantly. But - I make "more" getting credits in lieu than I would slicing and buying off vendors or the GTN. As I said at the start, it's a matter of perception. I can perceive the wealth than something else garners me, by my taking it - that isn't in pure "credits" form.

Lady, you are now twisting *MY* words, and your recollection of SWG is vastly different to mine. WoW did not run a commendation system based around questing for the ENTIRETY of it's game. At least not up till the point which I left. They ran a commendation/badge system for the current highest tier of gear/and dungeoning system. If you want me to really go into depth, I can, but you won't come out smelling of roses by the time I'm finished with you. Bioware changed the rules. If you can't see that, that's fine - I'll not think you any less ignorant than you are. I never was a crafter in SWG - and I experienced the end game, and I enjoyed it - was never a money grind, and your viewpoint is screwed hardcore (But that's okay - everyone is allowed their perspective, no matter how ignorant they may be). A crafted item that takes tens of hours to make, should be worth less than something you tripped up over and found? You have some serious issues of balance to deal with. I would make some mocking statement right now, but - seriously - your post is messed up.

I'm of two minds at the moment on that subject. I genuinely think this has probably been the single best "release" of an MMO that I've seen, dating back to UO. And yes - I've been playing MMO's for that long. The best solution for each problem that comes up, isn't always just to bury your head in the sand, but I suspect BW/EA are copying Blizzard's take on this. However - the fact that they seem to be copying Blizzard's take on this, put's my nose out. We're paying to play and bugfix a BETA game for them - and they're not responding to us. There's no dialog. There's occasional action - but it follows the "short term" success route - which never leads to "long term" gaming. Truly - if Bioware would have made a statement saying: "Well actually, this would have been out of line with a 50's basic income." - I suspect the majority of people would have bought the lie (having seen the collected data myself and done some maths - well yeah, ignorance is bliss isn't it). Without hesistation. We'd have even forgiven them later when we found out the amounts of credits that slicing brought into the game was genuinely "taking a leak into the wind" for all the game breaking it was going to achieve. I'm of two minds about this. What worries me more - and is making me think I really shouldn't re-subscribe is how they're still silent on the stack exploit. The fact that they've said nothing about it (On Twitter - just off the check the Dev tracker now to confirm this statement), makes me think they're just ignoring the problems the exploit has caused - and if that's how they're going to behave in future, then I REALLY don't want to be here in the long term.

I agree with Vendors selling decent gear. That's "easily" obtainable. It's a sublime stroke of genius. That's either been a years+ research by EA/BW into this, or - they've stumbled across it by serendipity. If crafted gear - doesn't readily run in line with it, then there is a HUGE case of lacking parity. And since I suspect, that EA/BW are trying to appeal to many who left SWG, ignoring the market of crafting is a foolish notion to take. What the majority of crafters would like - is some kind of parity. If it takes me a few hours worth of work/effort to make an item at low level - (including the RE's going into getting the schematics) if it's superceded by superior gear - that can be obtained for ten minutes worth of questing to get the required currency, there is a serious lack of parity between craft and vendor. This gap increases as you level. This is why crafters are complaining. What some see - or rather fail to see, are the design theories behind this (at least I hope they were planned). I think many would just like a case of - things feeling a little more balanced across the board.We're not asking you to be beholden to us, but we're asking for the chance to produce something worth buying. And since I do believe that BW are trying to appeal to those who've left SWG over the years as people who'd want to play this - crafters need to be included in this game, somewhat. Which at the moment, it's not faring well for them.

One of the biggest problems with slicing was: PERCEPTION. Mainly - the ignorant's perception of it as a crewskill. It generated credits. And they couldn't see - other crewskills generating credits - via creating items of value. I had an hour long discussion with someone - while on a train over this subject, and he couldn't see the "value" in say - Archaeology - getting materials that the vendor would sell for 100+c each, when the mission cost ~400c, and would return 10+ items. Or companion gifts either. He could only see "credits" (and not the benefit of running Arch missions for crewskills goods). And for that reason, felt the hack job BW did was entirely justified. He couldn't appreciate the value of Companion Gifts either. And damn, now I've said that Archaeology gets something for free, that neets a nerf too. Along with TH, and UWT etc. The biggest problem with Slicing was purely people's "perception" of it. If it had been introduced to the game as it was pre nerf - when everyone was 50, no one would have batted an eyelid. Because they would be seeing it from the perception of people who had 50's with a level 50's income (and could understand the value of other crewskills). Other things would be generating "free" credits for them, and more efficiently, and by that time, they'd have learned to appreciate the value of other tradeskills. Alas - I think Bioware was ahead of it's time with the ability, and didn't have the kahoona's (by that I mean: ********s, balls, bollocks or just belief in their own product) to stand by it proudly. Note the absolute silence coming from them.

Ahh, I see you've run out of arguements then. He wins by default. In fact, having read both of your arguements... there's reason why he's responding, and - no, I'm not going to get into this one. I've made my thoughts on this topic clear way back - and his points somewhat coincide with some of mine. I think this vendored gear is a stroke of genius, however - the fact that crafting isn't readily in-line with it, or obviously in line with it, is a massive inbalance.

Seconded. To be honest - I'll be glad to be playing sans damage meters for a while. I truly grew sick of them in WoW, especially when they were used inappropriately or just badly. Of which most uses I ever saw, were. The fact that most dungeons/raids these numbers were bandied around like they were pro's - when they were still standing in the effing fire, not CC'ing things they should be etc... means - for now - I'm happier without than with. The role of pew pewer, isn't just to top the charts. And I'll be glad for as long as it stays out of TOR. I don't need to know how much damage you are doing, or that I'm lagging behind you. So long as what's supposed to be happening in the fight *IS* happening, and what's supposed to be avoided *IS* being avoided. If a fight goes smoothly, I don't care if someone's higher or lower than me. And to the poster above me, I did high end WoW raiding, strict 10 man stuff in hardmode fights, 25 HC, etc.. I also did high end FFXI raiding. What I learned there - was it was always less about doing the MOST damage, but doing it right. Doing it at the right time, and getting the teamwork aspect right. We *knew* who our top DD's were, we knew who our best healers were. Never flung it in their face if they weren't, because you could *always* tell when people weren't doing their job "right". And no - I rarely used recount as a raid leader. I did use the tool that told me when people were doing things WRONG, that I can't remember the name of, but rarely was DPS meter ever required. Some of the other functions - yes - they were useful. But - to be truthful, the deathcount/decurse/etc counts - were of far higher value than any DPS meter ever was.

I would like to state a counter arguement for this. I do not believe that they are a hindrance to the economy - with a caveat - as some folk will have noticed, I have been very vocally anti Slicing nerf, but I also believe that - the welfare gear (via commendations) is a GREAT thing. In my never humble opinion - the two as they were, combined to make a game, that was very accessible, while leaving no room for goldsellers (since gear could always be acquired with commendations). Crafting - needs a boost, to bring it in the same region as the vendors, as a baseline. The two - need to scale equally, but have differences in what they can offer over Commendation gear. I.E. Commendation gear gives the inital starting boost to gear, but crafted gear can be refined to mix/match for perfect setups. This I think is wrong. Commendation gear being able to provide a welfare baseline of gear that's easily obtainable is a "GOOD" thing, that gives the market that felt freedom of Goldsellers. It's a market that they cannot ever - control. This is true - almost all of the crafts cannot compete with what is available via Vendor at almost any stage of the game, short of artifact gear, and that is levelled out of quickly - making it worthless considering few have the cash to spend freely. If Cybertech's could easily keep up with the vendors for mods, we would not have an imbalance. Likewise - if Armstech/Synth were able to produce more Orange gear - the same would apply. Having Vendors selling "decent" gear isn't a bad thing, however - I think crafting gear should be in-line with it. I think that Bioware should review the nerfs, but for different reasons. In my opinion - they only cheapen what can be produced by crafters because crafters cannot compete in-line with them. They are an essential commodity to a relatively Credit Farmer free environment. Having that environment encourages play sans the need for RMT. Unfortunately, crafting has taken a backseat, because by their own design (which in turn has encouraged RMT to spring up) - will take a while for it to settle. I do hope they look at crafting seriously, and bring it back into line with what's vendorable. I also think they should look at slicing within this, because a functioning slicing skill, allows for crafting to prosper.

You miss the point here - it was never a Bentley or Rolls to start with. It was a basic Corsa, second hand. It seemed like a lot, at level 15, but soon as you levelled to 30/40+ it was really just enough to cover the bare necessities. Except 100k at level 15 is in your mind, and you can't get it out of your mind. Doesn't change the basic fact that it was CHUMP CHANGE. A kiddie waving a $5 bill and telling me they're going to buy the KING OF CANDIES, is still only going to be buying sweets. Not a roller or beemer or merc or bentley. Just sweets. Hopefully - I expressed that in a fashion that if you were from the EU or the US you could grasp it.

Sorry - I thought there was a discussion about missions there. My level 17 Scavenger Cybertech makes 10k an hour minimum selling stuff converted from DESH - not Aluminimium or Bronzium to Vendors, the latter stuff gets even higher. (I mean Hell, it gets even higher buying off the GNT and converting it, since I don't have to farm - but WHATEVER BRO - you are in the credits am I right?). Oh sorry - you were saying your skill isn't broken. Keep on. Just the crappy Desh I get. Can't wait to see what I make when my lowbie Scavenger levels up. For the most part - my higher level slicer, it's not worth me walking over to the boxes, because they'll net me less than the mobs will drop. Bah-dum-psh. But slicing isn't broken right? Carry on as you were. It's literally at the point where its not worth checking the boxes. So - that's why you're making that much. Go you! Cos I'd rather hit mobs that can give me more. And more often, and more frequently. Hell, I was pushing slicing amounts of pre-nerf missions back at level 27 while grinding some areas of Taris. 2cd's would net me a lockbox of that area level if not more. Data would agree with me, but carry on. I'm personally only bothered because the folk out there don't have the cash, because the crafts have to make artifact level items (which idiot boy before doesn't get) and pray they crit (not prototype) before they are stronger than levelling commendation items. Not prototype. But carry on as you were. Literally. I'll say it a lot. You think you has your niche (this typo was deliberate - speaking to yo' level bro). Great. It's a pointless niche, but if you feel the vibes, dig it man. Don't let them hold you down or back for that matter. Go you. Since From my experiences, the nodes don't hold anywhere near what they did, and are not worth deviating for if there's a credit or decent grey dropping mob nearby - and definately not if there's a pack of credit or decent grey dropping mobs nearby. It's all gravy though - you can bask in what they offer you as sloppy seconds and think it's wonderful. Anyone who's been there and done the maths - will tell you what bunk it is - hence the number of posts on this topic that would disagree with you - saying the same thing I do. The nodes aren't even worth investigating, becase the packs of mobs will net you more than the slicer running for the nodes. Best part - is watching them wait for you to pull the mobs, so they can run in and steal it from under you - and seeing you loot more than they could from that lockbox. By all means though - knock yourself out. You do that to my Scavenger or Archaelogist and I'd be calling you bad words. My Slicer - wouldn't even notice. And that's the biggest joke.

I'm sorry the database of slicing rewards say you're lying. Outright. We've already on mass calculated the net max, and you cannot physically do it in that time. But keep sprouting nonsense. Slicing does not make 20k an hour. It only barely reached that pre-nerf. Before they removed all the good lockboxes and took them out. Because the ingame lockboxes are tied to the same rewards system as the mission ones. Unless - what you're actually saying is, while grinding mobs, which returned more than pre-slicing did, you now make 20k an hour. Which isn't ANYWHERE near the same thing. Especially since the majority of high end boxes have been removed, and the boxes remaining have had their rewards massively lowered - when Slicing was NERFED. Edit: Dyspraxia - for those of you whom may have quoted me immediately. I often reverse my two's and five's. It was not intentional. Hence my typing of two's and five's - I can see that difference.

I'm glad you've been able to sell your Artifacts, not Prototype. Oh wait - you're not saying you're selling Prototypes? I'm even more impressed. No seriously - guys, we need to bow down to this man's acumen, for selling substandard gear - in an economy where it comes freely - and 90% of the time, is as good as crafters can make. So, he's the exception to the rule that we must all look up to. Please, oh great master, explain your secrets. Since, running the GTN selling artifact - purples at cost, has netted me stuff being sent back to me, over and over, mostly, because of two reasons: 1: No one has money to spare because they can barely afford their skills if at all. 2: Vendors offer as good as I can craft easily (we're talking prototypes here) without needing to pay a dime out of their now "tight" wallet, since there's no easy money. Please explain your wisdom and insights for all to see. (I have my niche markets of buying things and selling to vendor at a profit, but it's slow and small - i.e. pre Slicing nerf amounts).

That's good for you. Today, I've been running slicing missions, while doing nothing. Not PvPing with my guild, or questing, just o see the net profit. I think after 18 missions (3 companions a time, with a spread of affection rating) - I've made 500 credits. Truthfully - I'd have made more credits sending them out scavenging, then using my Cybertech to craft something and then vendoring them. Oh wait - I do that already on my level 18 (ironically enough). Except a lot quicker. This is like - well duh Captain Obvious. Just today - due to real life, wasn't able to play. +500c for myself when normally I'd be able to net about 10x that via an "active day". You're right, it's far from useless. It's so much worse that it is beyond pathetic. It's so much dross that it does less than nothing, and I critted in my tests today. I got blue lock boxes to open. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong. Or perhaps - your story doesn't check out with the rest of it. (Note - PvP grind's are faily consistent cashwise, as are grinding out greens and vendoring off the GNT). I'm not calling you a liar, but my "average" day of PvP and grinding mats from the GTN - with a side order of slicing agrees with my "average" day of slicing alone. Slicing is worth less than the slot you pay for it. The rest, make noticable profits, far more than Pre-Nerf Slicing did. Except in the case of some - who make the bajillions of credits and say how great it is. Except it isn't. EDIT: And yes, my average day doesn't include me running 7 alts all doing slicing 24 hours a day. For the record, before some idiot chirps in.

Oh how I miss hour long boss fights. Screw clearing trash and the rest of it. A three hour HNM session would involve killing a couple of bits of trash, and then some EPIC fights. With a chunk of walking. But - they also screwed up with AV. Damn I hated that boss with a passion. Although - some of the 30 second fights were quite fun too (we had Rid/Kraken or Apoc DK's in our LS). Definately definately - so much harder than WoW ever was. Perhaps less standing in the fire mechanics, but - to be honest, skillchaining (to get a kill done before rage) was a damned sight harder than stepping out of the fire - esp with hate mechanics what they were.

I won't go into my history suffice to say I was mudding back in the late 80's. That makes it decades. Now, to answer your point here... We have a game, that crafters are pretty much superfluous to. For example - most crafts, cannot easily craft anything which cannot be bought at a better quality easily with commendations or credits. Note - the huge wave of cries that Biochem needs to be nerfed since it actually functions (I don't believe it needs a nerf by the way - but clearly I'm an idiot for seeing something working, and not trying to break it - I must be an idiot because I'm not jealous right?). Now - within this world, crafters can *just* supercede it BY... crafting artifact gear, which take time/money to make. That means though - they need people with "spare" money to buy them. If you want crafters to be viable in such a game, there needs to be spare - or free money floating around. An abundance of wealth so to speak. We started out - with such an abundance, that - had a capped earnings amount. Crafting in earnest - started - people made stuff - that was at the time comparable and in some cases superceded commendation gear. You have to see - at that moment in time, we didn't have an abundance of 50's, with large amounts of cash coming into the system. We had - pockets of wealth (tiny wealth on the grand scheme of things - because the costs I'm seeing rise are well above what Slicing's max earnings were) - that slowly were being distributed around. This got hacked off, and the market stalled. Now, it may well pick up in future - but we've been forced into a depression - where the only option of getting out is to grind. Now, I'm not going to go into your scripted bot arguement, because I genuinely believe that cheating is wrong. But I also genuinely believe that MOST people wouldn't dream of doing that. In every game, you'll get cheaters. However, in every game, you'll STILL get many more who it wouldn't occur to - to cheat. But if you have to cut off every avenue that a "cheat" can take, you're cutting off many more legitimate avenues for your average player. A case of punishing the masses for the behaviour of a few. Which - if you started getting punished for the actions of a few - you'd start being peeved off. People have gone into this in more depth than I have, with better arguements, and if you're still unable to see it - you're not capable of learning or having your perspective changed. One friend of mine, totally thinks the nerf was totally needed because a level 15 had 100k. End of story. While he sees all of the rest of the fallout, and says how really bad it is for everyone else, nerf totally had to happen, really hard and all the rest, because his viewpoint cannot comprehend anything beyond his own experience - and the thinking that a level 15 having 100k was totally WRONG - he feels offended by this. As a player - he played WoW since a few weeks off of it's start date. He didn't have a max level character until I literally dragged him through WoW in Cataclysm. He still doesn't have high level characters on this. You cannot explain the bigger picture because he can only see the child waving £5 and thinking that's wrong. This nerf, affected more than the slicers. It crashed the whole economy. It probably will recover. However - it's forcing people away from casual if they wanted to craft. You can call my attitude BS if you wish. You can say that grinding is a good thing. At the end of the day however - slicing was - chump change. It was minimum wage. It was also the beating heart of a fledgling economy that has now tanked. And on that note: I'm off to start reaping the GNT for mats to convert and vendor. I make more money doing that than slicing did pre-nerf. Cheerio.