WHAT ON EARTH are u talking about!! Crushridge was the italian server. i am italian. i had lvled on another server, and tried playing on crushridge cos some friends did. It was the worst server, full of ninja looters, trolls, chinese farmers spamming on chat and a lot of small kids practicising their bad words vocab on chat... there never was a comunity on crushridge...

dont be so negative. this post started from a interview with Bio that said they are considering of doing crosserver lfg when they had originally said it would not be crosserver. this is clearly a consequence of the numerous posts on these forums. the arguments i was posting were among the most sensible in the above mentioned threads. its good. very few other industries gief as much consideration to the opinions of their clients. In fact they usually prefer to steal it or buy client info from other companies. here we get a chance to talk and directly afect the product. theres more democracy here than in...

You clearly are one of those people who use the Kennedy reading method? read 1 line skip one line? I wont answer your points, but I would like to make u aware of the fact that u are answering to me for words i am just copying from another thread. It does say it clearly at the beg. of the post too....

i am one of those and i have NO idea what your talking about... speak for yourself not for "wowers" u will find 11 million people have 11 million opinions (and also 11 million "holes where the sun dont shine" cos after all, everyone has theirs...)

hug and then more /hug

lol. sorry i see many points being made here that have already being addressed. How is reposting these to avoid: sensless amounts on posts on a thread that brings.. nowhere. Im providing a means to those who argue against the xserver lfg to have an intelligent debate which keeps into consideration the major points of the issue (from both point of views).

hardly so. the link i gave u is the 2nd thread of an original 100pg long thread. here is the original post, coming also from another thread. (this is the direct link to the thread in case u wanna read 100 pages of opinions for the lfg crosserver: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=242271 Originally Posted by Manathayria Damn thing capped out and refused to let me even save the post I was working on. /cry Anyway... First, let me state. I've been playing WoW since about a month after it's release - I avoided the worst of it's glitches at release, and have played off and on since. Currently - Cata - I still log in off and on to talk to a few friends and run the occasional dungeon. Now for the shocker; the cross server dungeon finder in no way shape or form influenced any of my friends to quit WoW. If anything, the new LFR tool for cross server pulled many of them back into the game to try content which they felt they'd never see as they'd turned casual. Community is not discussing boss strats before a pull. That's team work. It's also something that I see often in LFD x-server dungeons. As I have yet to try the LFR tool (don't feel I'm geared enough even though the finder says I am) I can't say how well that works. Community is your guild - your friends - people on your server, being able to sit around and chat about absolutely nothing on fleet without having to be doing anything out in PvE/PvP, or discussing things on a planet while leveling. Like it, love it, or hate it, gear-gateways created by elitists neither encourage nor help community. At the moment, it appears, as Aeon's case and a few others have shown, if the current server-community is creating false-gateways that Bioware didn't intend to have there, or requiring that everything be done within a guild, the community is failing, as it will block out new players and discourage them. Maybe I need to re-visit an old concept for those of you that missed it. As it is a very old school concept that was around back in EQ and FFXI - both of which are/have been more 'hardcore' than WoW ever dreamed of. Skill > Gear. LFD is intended to help people do what they want within the game. The current system is failing and has failed to pull in and help players accomplish what they want in game. The main and only reason I currently think x-server is a horrid idea for this game is because I feel people should grow to recognize names on their server and get to know people there more before the gates to xserver are opened (if they are) and even then I feel that people should have the check box option of []server or []cross server, thus, hopefully, making more people that hate X-server happy. Generally, I would feel that server only LFD helps with community - but again, if we're already down to trying to be elitist jerks, that little system has already failed and shouldn't be considered as high of a priority as letting people play the game they enjoy - and create any ties they want outside of dungeons. This is the point that those screaming 'get a guild!' should really look at. If elitists are preventing pugs - and thus preventing groups which would potentially pull someone into a guild, they're preventing community from becoming stronger and are hurting it. In this case, something needs to be done to remove the elitists from the equation to allow casuals to easily get groups that they are geared for. The LFD tool - if automated - fills that need to help the community. <continued> To address a few comments that have come up repeatedly. 1. LFD encourages ninjas: a. False. The current loot system allows it. That system should be revisited. Gear that cannot be equipped by your class/AC should have the need button greyed out - also a new loot button should be added so the loot rolls will look like this: [Need] [Companion] [Greed] [Disassemble] 2. LFD destroys community: a. LFD allows players to play the content they are paying for. Community is not LFG/LFD for 3 hours with no response for you. It's also not running all dungeons only within guild. 3. But this other game, that has millions of subcribers is losing people because of it! a. No, they're not, unless you can give solid numbers, this is a strawman argument. Stop it. Unlike the last incarnation of the LFD tool which had people using trade to form groups and only using the tool to Q on the side, people are going out to do content while Qed.... instead of sitting in town. Also, reffer to above post on my personal experience in wow. 4. People will be rude! a. If someone is going to be rude, in the current system, they're going to be rude anyway, and they're probably going to be in with their friends. The same applies to cross server content. You will come in contact with more people, which means you are going to meet both more nice, and more mean ones. This is also why we have ignore, and I hope they'll give us account wide /ignore and cross server friends lists. 5. It will break immersion for me - teleports aren't realistic. a. Neither is the fact I don't get to drive my ship for hours to get from planet to planet like I'd have to do in Eve, but I would neither enjoy, nor want to have to deal with that in this game. If they want our help so bad, the least they can do is send us shuttles and pack our things to send us out on the mission they're asking us to go to. The immediate teleport is a shuttle - and your immersion isn't broken that badly by this concept if you're not disturbed by not being able to manually fly your ship from planet to planet for 3 hours + as you would in EVE 6. LFD causes them to make all the content easier: a. The current content is already easy. It wasn't designed for 'hardcore' players. We've actually suggested creating another harder tier - a 'Nightmare' mode that'd require more coordination, not be in the LFD, and be something that'd be geared more for guilds and pre-made groups. We aren't asking for nerfed content in this case, we're asking for easier access to the content that exists. 7. LFD Lets 'scrubs' in: a. Those 'scrubs' are paying for the game too. Let me remind you: Skill > Gear. To a point, yes, but if the system is designed with a built in gear check that's not fabricated by elitists, and the person passes the gear check, at that point it's just what they bring to the table as far as skill that matters. If someone really can't pull their weight after passing the system's gear check it should always be an option to kick them from a group by group consensus later on in the run. I'm sure I've missed a lot, but those are the main points I can think of that people keep bringing back up. <Still work in progress under '<continued>'>

lols at you trolls... here some more properlly done counter arguing from another post: Quote: Originally Posted by Varghjerta No you are advocating LFD because you want it to be faster just with a press of a button. no, I advocate it because it adds something to the game without taking anything away (at least, noone can offer anything but purely opinion based problems with it). That seems like a winning combination to me. Quote: Originally Posted by Eldrenath Finally, my point is that cross-server LFD tools destroys community and heightens douchebaggery. And it DOES impact people that choose not to use it by way of the fact that since nearly everyone will use it (because of how simple it is), it will make finding on-server PUG groups much more challenging. Well I can see 3 possibilities. 1. The vast majority of people are in favor of the lfg tool. You'll actually have some challenges finding a group. But, since you're part of a tiny minority, it's silly of you to insist that the majority not get their way. 2. The vast majority of players are not in favor of the lfg tool. You'll have no significant additional challenges for finding groups. 3. The split in the community is somewhere in the middle. You'll have a bit of challenge added to finding groups but will still be able to find groups that way in a reasonable amount of time, and the folks in favor of it will have some of what they want, but not all of it, since a significant portion of the player base won't be be using that tool. Both sides give up something and gain something. this is called compromise. I suspect that #1 is actually the truth, but that's just my suspicion. Quote: Or, as you (rightly) put it, tedious. If LFD were introduced, I imagine you'd see this: Player 1: LFG for any HM FP. Healer here. PST if interested. Player 2: Just use LFD n00b lulz! That's a win-win situation: you get to easily identify and ignore the players that you really don't want to be grouping with anyway. Quote: 1. That's your opinion, and I believe you. Doesn't make my experience any more or less valid. It does, however, show that you aren't actually offering a valid argument against the lfg tool by relating the fact that you've had negative experiences in wow's lfd tool. Quote: 2. Incorrect. Because people usually choose the easiest path rather than the better one, because people are idiots (myself included). Just because something can be made easier doesn't mean it should. In point #2, you completely ignore the social ramifications X-server LFD tools carry. In your opinion, those things don't matter. In mine they do. In my opinion, they'd matter if they existed... but I have yet to see anyone mention a negative impact that's actually caused by the lfg tool. matter != justify not having it. Quote: 3. True. But again, this is your opinion, not a fact, and based on your personal experiences. My personal experiences were different. In my experiences, "occasional jerk" tranlated to "jerks 50%+ of the time". Again, you say my points are less valid because they are substantiated only by opinion and personal experience. This is another of your points, substantiated only by opinion and personal experience. Clearly, we can take from this that neither of your experience is an argument for or against in the general case. Quote: 5. Your opinion is that LFD offers a choice. Mine is that it does not. That's not opinion. You can choose to use or or not. Period. what it offers is perhaps a choice that you don't like... but it's a choice non-the-less. Quote: It makes nearly all people wanting to PUG use the LFD tool. I readily admit that. So, you're saying that you're in a tiny minority? Quote: However, I believe that this has significant negative downsides for the server as a whole. Among which: 1) Heightens doucebaggery. No, it doesn't You're just making an unsupported claim here; I'm pretty sure that you can't actually support it with facts. Quote: 2) Since everyone uses the LFD, it becomes much more difficult to make friends with players on your local server, thus reinforcing the cycle of using the LFD tool. This one isn't true either. It's just speculation. Quote: 3) Completely removes social aspects of group play. Since you'll never group with these again, there's no point in chatting at all. You're basing this on a flawed premise: an lfg tool (whether single or cross server) does not mean that you'll never group with them again. Beyond that, I'm sorry that you're so antisocial that you're not willing to socialize with people that you're only seeing once; that's not true of everyone Quote: Many groups (in my experience) dont even want to discuss tactics. This was the case in wow before the lfg tool. It was the case in EQ pugs a decade ago. People don't want to discuss tactics once they're trivial. Quote: So, in sum, I respect your opinion but it is not based on facts any more than mine is. Your opinions seems to be based on your thoughts and experiences, just like mine is, and therefore no more inherently valid. I think it's pretty clear that the stance that you're arguing with is based more on facts and less on opinions than the one you're arguing. They've shown concrete advantages to people that are based on fact. You've offered purely opinion based contradiction.

whatever dudes. u clearly have no ears for the other point of view. here is a post on regards: this is not mine Originally Posted by Touchbass Originally Posted by Touchbass Dr. Blizzard or: How I learned to stop worrying and love the X-LFD Before we begin our discussion, I'd like to start off with two extremely positive things X-LFD has brought to the MMORPG community. I'm not saying these two particular benefits make the X-LFD mandatory, but for us to have any kind of a civilized conversation you need to first recognize the inherent benefits X-LFD has brought to these two issues. 1) The saviour of low population servers/factions The global LFD tool basically prevented low population servers from hemorrhaging players and salvaged a ton of communities from what a lot of players had previously written off. For those who are unaware, there are currently servers in WoW with less than 30-40 players on a faction at max level at a given time during peak hours. You can literally spam for hours and not receive any replies, its quiet depressing in fact. To be an unfortunate individual stuck on one of those servers, you tend to have one out of threeoptions: spend real life money to transfer off, quit the game, or play the game in a limited capacity. I don’t have the numbers for each of those three options but I’m sure to some of those left on the server felt as if they were on a ‘sinking ship’. When the LFG hit, populations took surges and people came back again. Players could gear themselves up independently of the server being in shambles and guilds were allowed spend their time tackling raids instead of searching for the elusive member(s) to fill out the dungeon group. 2) Access to low level content I’ve seen some servers with more naked BE’s running around Orgimmar begging for doubloons than the entire max level base of other servers, even with these massive populations problems can still exist. While the good times were rolling (or dancing on mailboxes), hardly anybody was running low level dungeons. The problem wasn't lack of interest (as inherent of how easy it is now to get a group for lower level dungeons regardless of your group role), the issue was that it is time consuming and a pain in the butt to track down people and fill out the trinity for content that you could of probably leveled out of by the time you finished the bloody dungeon in the first place. With the addition of LFD, leveling became less of a pain if it wasn't your thing and created access. I don't think a lot of people realize that with the LFD a lot of players for the first time got to see these dungeons within the appropriate difficulty parameters. The next section is some insight into why the whole LFD crisis came up in the first place 1) Gaming demographics have changed The average face of a MMORPG gamer has changed dramatically over the past, we are melting pot of veterans, power games, stay at home dad/moms, the unemployed, the mentally ill, casual gamers and multi-platform gamers. Due to the mass appeal, subscriptions have soared like never before and have brought unforeseen consequences when the play styles of some of these gamers have clashed. The challenge is how we accommodate players of differing extremes: some want tight-knit communities that encourage and require players to work together, players who support grouping within same server but demand working reliable tools to facilitate the process, and finally players who frankly just want access to the game they paid for at their convenience. 2) Why should we be catering to these different crowds? Money. The things money buys is good for an MMORPG, it allows it to evolve and address the concerns of players in a reasonable amount of time. The wheeled engine of WoW costs a tremendous amount of money to run, if we got rid of all those players that didn't fit 100% into our ideologies of what a gamer should be we'd see substantial loss of customer service, R&D and free content patches to just name a few things. More importantly, life sometimes makes you transition your availability due to work/school/annoying wife, if a game you truly enjoy is built around one play style you'd be up the creek without a paddle if you can't obligate that time anymore. All of us are probably guilty of taking advantage of the benefits brought to us from our fellow gamers; we need to be more sympathetic to their plight. 3) This isn't Kansas anymore Don't let anyone fool you, traditional MMORPG's were built on the concept of ludicrous grinds that basically required an obscene amount of time to reach max level. Now don't confuse my words, this isn't a discussion of how long the leveling process should take or am I advocating the hitting of max level of not being an accomplishment - what I am trying to say is the gaming atmosphere of old which doesn't exist in any practical sense to the target markets Western MMO's are trying to reach out towards. We are spending countless resources trying to redo the leveling process and making it alt friendly, why would we do that when the hard cores spend most of their time at max level? We do this because they are no longer the majority of the player base and the genre has evolved for better or worse, the pockets of the many out weight the pockets of the few. 4) The Rise of the Titans The height of MMORPG's are communities (think of the name itself), they are living bustling entities that evolve even when you aren't logged on. One of the most efficient and memorable ways of binding a community is the requirement of other players to facilitate something, whether a crafting ingredient or his/her help in a group for example. This created an atmosphere were people who put any resemblance of effort to becoming actually integrated into server and those who caused any problems where chastised and shunned. Imagine advertising your group intentions in whatever deemed appropriate channel and being able to categorize all of your responses with the notation of whether that person is worth grouping with or a waste of time. Don't underplay the notion that servers felt distinctly different from one another and had an identify, rolling need for an off spec item if that was taboo on the server could literally blacklist you. Wait, why is any of this deemed a problem? 5) Square peg meets the round hole I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself at this point, hi my name is Charles and I'm a tank. I was the living breathing personification of the aforementioned lifestyle, I'd log to receive a plethora of tells to clear up dungeons for friends on off nights and raid like men on main nights. Everything was going great until I had my son; life and my game time started to change drastically for me at this point. No longer could I commit set chunks of time to play due to child raising duties and I was conversely dropped off the guilds active roster as the tank. I was still able to complete dungeons and occasionally fill in to OT but something fundamentally changed, getting premade groups became difficult for me. What changed wasn't that I become unpopular or my skills had waned to the point of “noobery”, what had fundamentally changed was how much of a hassle everything had become. Before I’d plan to play only 3 hours due to other obligations, I’d log on, see who’s on and we’d negotiate when we’d start. This would allow me to delay my set chunk of time to later or start it immediately and get off, now when I tried to get groups together it was a one shot deal and if people were indisposed at the moment I was unable to get anything done. After weeks of incomplete game time I regrettably said my farewells to my server top guild and only came back for expansion releases (when groups are easy to find) and permanently when the LFD came out. This next part I attempt to highlight why certain situations paved the way for the LFD in the first place, I’ll be making some assumptions but anyone with a dog in the fight (aka has a job and/or family life) will understand that they are reasonable and fair. 1)Not everyone has 24/7 availability If you work a full-time you only really have between 3-4 hours of playtime a night before you are significantly affecting other areas of your life. Weekends are a different story, sometimes you get to play a lot and sometimes you have less time then weekdays, but let’s say you squeeze in 10 hours total across the weekend. I’m being very generous with the above allotted times, if you have any outside obligations, hobbies, studies, other games of interest or a family, those times allotted are going to skyrocket down. That equals 25 hours of playtime roughly week for a medium to borderline hard core gamer, where I personally think most people are between 11-16 hours. Some people think spending an hour to form a group of “friends” online is acceptable gameplay, while I won’t say that they are wrong but I’m going to say a lot of others disagree strongly. 2)Think LFD causes problems? The old model was worse Now picture you log on for your daily bread (I mean hours) and instead of going out and enjoying the world you have to stand around a capital city to ask for a group. You just got off work and already you’re not having fun, you’re being forced to work to enjoy yourself. Under the old model it used to take around 20 minutes at minimal for assembling the group and arrival at the instance, some people could get it done faster and others, well couldn’t get it done at all for various reasons. Now imagine someone has to go, god forbid it’s a tank and that means someone has to leave the instance to ask again, by this point another player may drop and your run could be over. Having a run collapse can eat upwards of 2 hours of someone’s play time, if not more. Losing that time may not be a big deal to someone but if they only have 11-16 hours to play a week, not being able to get a dungeon off the ground is going to cost them a significant chunk of their playtime for the week and not including the time it takes to assemble another one. 3)The solution that worked for most gamers With the addition of the LFD tool, gamers where finally given a tool that could maximize a person’s time in an efficient manner. When you click that button you know you have roughly between 10 and 30 minutes at longest before you group starts. This gave players the option of doing some dailies, farming some particular items or doing something quick in real life, regardless of their choice they were finally using their time to something they wished. This isn’t as much about the length of time but the expected duration of how long a particular task will take which is important. If I know I that when I log on and I have 3 hours to play and I can calculate it’ll take me 30 minutes to assemble a group, 1 hour to complete it and 45 minutes to do my dailies afterwards I’ll be a happy customer. Now imagine I log on, spend over an hour trying to find a group and can’t complete the group, by the time I reach the point where I can no longer finish the dungeon due to time constraints I’m going to rush through my dailies in a bitter mood. This doesn’t have to happen many times for people to throw up their hands and say to “hell with it”. 4)Work odd hour or strangely irregular hours One of the biggest groups that got punished were those who didn’t game when the rest of us were online. Think you got issues assembling a group in the pre-LFD days, trying being online when there aren’t even 5 people online at your level. For years they were told to relocate to a server that best fits their needs, ignore the content entirely or quit. I shouldn’t have to go into why there is something substantial wrong with the above helpful advice and in fact I won’t. 5)The player level bubble This sort of ties within an earlier point but I just wanted to expand on it quickly. Group content is great when it’s accessible now imagining having no one around you to complete it. If the majority of players are at max level how are you supposed to perform group activities prior to the level cap? The old model was beg in /1 or coerce a guildie into feeling bad enough to run you through it. This is the reason WoW removed the majority of elite group quests, not because people weren’t interested in them but because people couldn’t get them done in a reasonable amount of time. The next section is my attempt to reconcile the two crowds and try to break the ignorance that is plagued towards us “second class citizens” 1)The LFD destroys communities rant This is the biggest and loudest argument and deservers the most attention, we need to think about what the perspective is of the person who is advocating this and what are his intentions. His premise is very understandable, why on earth would you want anything you cherished to be besieged? The players from this perspective are happy with their current gaming experiences and view anything dramatically changing as threatening their positive experiences. They may claim they are community individuals, but they aren’t in fact they really only looking out for their own interests and have no regard for the majority of the player base. 2)The LFD killed WoW (or severely crippled it) This has to be the most erroneous statement I’ve heard in the debate and I have to applaud who came up with that conjecture for how much is has swamped the MMORPG community. First off, how would you analyze this statement for any shred of truth? I’m not going to take your anecdotal evidence as fact, because quite frankly the LFD tool brought me back to the game and I know countless others who came back to the game because of it. In fact, the only evidence we can look at that is considered fair is how many subscriptions came back with the addition of the LFG feature versus who left the game at the same time. I wonder who’s going to come out on top of that one 3)The majority of these people opposing the LFD are hypocrites The only thing that changed was that we could no longer force people to communicate with others when they didn’t wish it or it wasn’t convenient. If you had a laundry list of friend’s pre-LFD to always do groups with, you should have seen absolutely no change at all in your gameplay experience. What could have possibly changed? You would log on, talk to your guildies and friends and come up with a time to run dungeons as you always did prior. If you were unable to facilitate a group as it sometimes can happen, you’d ask if anyone knew anyone or you simply just ask in trade. When someone refers to bad experiences with the LFD tool, I ask myself how they found themselves interacting with the tool in the first place. You clearly couldn’t find anybody to group with so instead of sitting around in Orgimmar spamming for groups you realized what the rest of us realized years ago that it that wasn’t fun. You then took the approach of joining a queue intended for a different gaming experience and got upset when it wasn’t to your liking. I can’t be the only one who is baffled by this, can I? 4)Ask not what your server can do for you but what you can do for your server With every major patch people leave and quit which swings servers into mayhem. One of the servers a buddy of mine played on was Smolderthorn, it had a top 100 guild and a fair balance till WOTLK server instability issues forced transfers. Within a few content cycles the server was completely damaged and people jumped ship. If someone quit during TBC and came back after the LFD was introduced he’d logically think it killed the server when it fact did not. Become part of the solution and not the problem, post your attentions on the server forums that you want to participate in a server event. You don’t even have to do know what to; you can usually leverage someone with ideas that has no warm bodies to fill them. Start small and work your way up. There is tons of information on Google on this so happy hunting! 5)Players have diminished in quality since the LFD for reason X,Y, and Z No, what has happened is people are of different skill backgrounds and you’ve just never realized just how many of them take up your player base who keeps your game running. This isn’t the days of yore when everyone who plays strongly understands the genre, blizzard has opened up the market for different crowds and it’s their playing experience too. Think of it from the other side of the coin, how do you think it is for us more casual player base to deal with you people on a more regular basis? Don’t got 100% optimized gear and talent spec for an encounter that don’t require it, get ready to get instructed on the values of life and potentially booted. Ask to a do all the bosses to a geared tank, better believe that’s a vote kick. 6)The Z in “X,Y, and Z” is for laZy One concern is that queue based systems will make people lazy and lethargically spend their time throughout the game world. We’re living in the country that works one of the most hours per person in the world and has severe time poverty and you’re confused why people are trying to take shortcuts? You’d have to be insane or unemployed not to take every time related advantage that doesn’t spoil your own experience in a game that soaks them up like nothing. Being lazy has no discrimination for which it strikes, whether it’s elites afking in bg’s for High War Lord titles or Johnny McNoob /afking in the raid finder 7)People are ******es in the LFD This is the only argument I particularly agree with, it is true that anonymity breeds people to make actions that may have not made in a different situation. Blizzard has given us a tool to deal with it; it’s called the vote kick. If you DO NOT abuse the vote kick, it is available almost every time you’ll ever need it. The majority of incidents that I’ve personally witnessed have been people taking someone’s words to seriously or someone “ninjaing” something. Now, for the latter it’s impossible to ninja in this game, I need you to understand that. “Ninjaing” for the sake of this argument is taking something that didn’t belong to you, entering into a rolling chance with someone when both parties legitimately want an item is not stealing. If someone has the same armour class or item proficiency, then casually speak to them in public or private to get their intentions, you’d be shocked in how people are civil once you make that communication leap and instead of assuming. For the attitude part, that is everyone’s job to try and keep a cool head. If you see people fighting over something in game, first off don’t make it worse by saying who’s right and who’s wrong. Secondly try and defuse the situation, I’ve been able to do this a few times or at least get to the point where everyone agrees it’s best to move on but be silent. Lastly, if else fails, Blizzard has given us the vote kick for these types of measures, use accordingly though or be warned it may not be there when you require it.

lols/.... again http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=279017

you know what the best thing is about the Bioware softcore mmorpg approach? seeing all you elitists cry all over yourself as a consequence! alterac valley 18 hr battles no more - amen no more -> more time = more loot swtor has a younger and older audience than wow. Basically more people who go to school or have a job. While wow audience was stong in mid 20's (uni students and the sorts) with lots of free time on their hands. Some of the swtor audience are the old uni students of wow who .. you know.. grew up. expectations change, this game caters more for the casual player and the crosserver lfg caters for just that. as i said go check the huge posts on regard http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=279017

oh btw if u want to check this post on people who discussed the lfg and corsserver possib http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=279017

You people who dont want a crosserver LFG system: 1) You NEVER played WoW 2) You played WoW in the last year year and a half and played with a very young population 3) you have bad memory 4)you have no idea what your talking about 5) your an elitist gamer who plays 24/7 and doesnt want others to enjoy the game cos u.. dont anymore after having capped lvl on week 2 or 3... I was there during vanilla wow, and after they implemented the crosserver lfg. It didn' ruin the comunity. The comunity moved on... 8 years... maybe its time u moved on too?

I was like many more really hoping this game would turn out to be worthwhile, and havn't abbandned hope, yet everytime i log to play I find something new that im not satisfyied with. So here is how I feel about the game and the reasons I will probably not buy another 3 months of sub. as a message from me to the devs, whos hard work i respect and to whom I feel obliged to give an explanation for their consideration if they ever deem it usefull in the present or for future reference. I mean after all companies nowadays pay to have client iformation or opinion. So.. here's mine. Keep in mind that, even if i have played wow and raided, this is not what I am/was seeking in swtor, nor am I particularly interested in the PVP aspect of the game. OFC i do intend to try some OP's yet i am absolutely not going back to a raiding regime. Basically 'casual' is the way to go for me, and in many regards SWTOR has done just this. I did enjoy the dialogues and it does gief a whole new lvl to the experience and the focus on narration an storyline yet there are some buts for me also on this front, which is what swtor does best. so ill start from here; what i dont like of the pve in this game. THe focus on story is good but I find for example that the story line is rather simple, its fine while targetting the audience of lets say star wars clone wars, but for the more mature ones its just a bit too scarse. Besides, I remember some of the class quests i did. I boarded a ship and had to kill several imperials some siths to get to a final sith lord. TO my surprise and joy i found minibosses hidden in the instance/fp. there were 3 siths along the way 2 of which in obscure places like second floors etc.. They had names and that was cool, but there was absolutely no story line about them. maybe sometimes a "written" quest could be fine. WHat i mean is, if making dialogues and animations for everyquest takes time, it would be acceptrable to have minor quests writen instead of acted out. specifically About the lore and ambientation I have some remorses. i played kotor 2 in the days and tried 1 before swtor was out, and hedi accademy etc.. Raven is nice cool. But.. there isnt much more besides this in swtor in terms of ideas (storyline wise). Also. maybe its cos of being in "closed spaces" or im not used to sci-fi ambientations, but after a while everyplace looks the same. nar shada and crouscant felt very similar once out of the main hubs. I might be overcritical cos I also didnt like many of the open world planets, mostly cos they reminded me of alterac and other areas of WoW. the planets I did like (and i very much did) were tatooine, hoth and taris is it (the one malek bombards in kotor?). yet i find too much of the interesting panorama is above the "playing/gaming" lvl and one rarely shifts the camera too look up at treetops, building or whatever.. Id rather have more good aesthetics than better graphics.. when will dev's ever understand this... I feel swtor hasnt developped its own aesthetic look and i find everthing very similar to WoW just a little less exagerated. Why didnt u use the Clone wars look/style at least that would have been distinctive. The class quests and flashpoints storylines are immersive and lots of fun and are what are keeping me interested in the game but.... When u get to 50 there isnt much else left to do. I mean dailies .. well once uve done them once theres no point re-listening to the stories.. Also there is no storyline (sol atleast) at lvl 50. which is a pitty. Once at 50 there are few ptions . too few i find - pvp (i am not interested anyways) - dailies (i really can't be bothered its a farm and i dont want this from games anymore i find them tedious) - FP: I love tanking and doing FP,s yet its so hard to find groups and population lets say it is .. scarse.. True i remember my last days in WoW which had a crosserver LFG system and 11 million players spread on servers. It was very easy to find groups at ANY time or day. It is not so ofc for swtor and its hard to find groups for FP's outside peak hours on a fairly populated server... Mine is russian so its also different from my times, but i dont find convenient the peak times of my server. i want to chose when to play and do what im interested in thegame. I also dont want to engage in other activities when i cant do what im interested in from the game (fps). I mean pvp is fine and im happy for those who enjoy it as for those who do their dailies.. I for one just want to log on do a FP or 2 and logoff.. If i dont log at peak hours i might aswell not logon after all.. so if i want to play i have to play at times convenient to russian friends hours.. its 3 hrs diffrence? anyways.. So i spend my time on the fleet which is rather small and boring cos its all the same. i mean there really no differnce at hanging out in one quarter of the fleet or another. in wow cities u could stick around the parts of town u licked the most.. jsut make nar shada or crouscant the main quest hub or something... anything rather than that fleet thingy... I would have enjoyed more choices when creating my char. races specifically. but they'll come i suppse, hard to get over with considering im in a star wars universe but.. I mean star wars fans could once tell star trek fans that they had lousy aliens who were just clearly humans in bad costumes. anyways.. another thing i really was expecting from swtor was more on the space and travel part of the game. as it is now having a ship is only a nuissance. moreover travelling to X or Y makes no difference timewise.. when one thinks of star wars, space travel is a huge part of where ones immagination wonders, and it just wouldnt be the same place without that component. I was initially expecting 2 separate games something under the mainheading of EVE+WoW together, meaning a questing/insancing wow kinda thing and also a space travel part, with loads of ships to find and make, long travel times to distant planets strange asteroids. (on a side note. having 5 datacrons/holocrons on every planet makes no sense, they should be rare and in obsolete locations, having 5 on each planet works against this even if u have find and get to them. having them in space on asteroids or small planets would have made so much more sense. Also as many planets as there are the truth is each class and player only gets to see a phew and MOST of all has NO alternative choice.. What i mean is that in Wow (vanilla at very start) each lvl bracket (1-10, 11-20 etc etc) had 2 or 3 zones to chose from to questing. there are no options in swtor you go to the planet for your lvl bracket and there arnt alternatives. the planets you dont go to is cos they are for another class (brakcets 1-10) or/and of the oppposite faction. Even worst, when u get to end game there are really 1 and a half planets for you.. Ilum which would count as the only really end game lvl planet and belsavis. Ilum however is mostly pvp with an alterac zone and has just a handfull of daily quests. Its rather small compared to previous planets. Belsavis is a bit better but ofc has only dailies. WoW had 3-4 or end game hubs, (vanilla had no dailies/repetables) with lvl 60 quests with long and fun followups. in swtor the only story left to do is Fp's but every1 is always in a hurry to do their HM;s anyways so.. besides the HMs uve already seen, thus once u have done BoI, FE and Koan u have seen everything in the game besides OP's, there is no new content. the only real answer is that swtor is a collage of many KOTORs done much better and in an interactive space/place and would be more affine to be played in terms of relloing rather than playing endgame. I for 1 still dont find that appealing, for starts i would much prefer to "give more depth" to one character in end game content. the idea of alts comes handy and is more appealing later on..

the problem seems to be causing lots of unhapiness, according to the repeated posts. Its somehow related to a request of making the LFG system crosserver, but many servers are experiencing low pop. issues. I, who play on starstrorm 1, also have trouble finding groups to lvl 50fps, and every day there seems to be less and less people. The early access induced bioware to open too many servers, free migrations and server merges should be done asap... keep posting and lets hope they'll listen...

well if we didnt care or didn't want them to succeed we wouldnt bother writing all these walls of texts day after day, week in week out? I know forums usually/ or eventually get read by devs, particularly when people rant about something long enough. lets hope they listen to us ><

would you want your doctor to tell you he made an error and tried to fix it or that he didnt tell you and let you die? which is the best solution??

2 videos the 1stone is funnier. the second I post for a reason THe good ghraphic settings of both. Did you take into account that you might be using your game at lowest posible settings? that makes for a dated computer not a dated game.. regardless there is a point behind this... WoW has lower pc requirements and while it will not be any more 'envouge' in the western countries, yet it still has a good go at less -rich- countries, or growing country, where lower requirements is and advantage.. to the OP what i really really cant accept in SWTOR is the lac of phasing. Once i had seen it in WoW i thaught there was no going back ever again... That MMORPGS would just HAVE to have phasing or just ... not exist? more races i suppose will come with patches and exp. Yet as much as i did feel the same as you on regards, now i am noticing that it is hard to find a clone of your avatar, (unless its twilek but thats just my point) the "human" skins are provided with so much customization that i havn't met an identical twin yet on my human char. So in the end im happy as far as new races are implemented as we go along cos those will be less common than the makority.

good points. However, one of the issues the crosserver adresses is that of servers with low population. I agree with you that id rather wait for a crosserver lfg tool instead of getting a server lfg, but I "live" on a decently populated server. The issue is ofc resolvable by providing server merges. These do NOT require complicated programing and has been done before by other companies with no drawbacks to the comunities. And just to say I speak from experience. When i was playing WoW, i 'lived' on a server called Daggerspine. At some point the server 'broke' (crashed oftern and needed to be rebooted more often than other servers) so they told us the server would close and that we would be offered a brand new server to move to (a free transfer) called Kazzak. We were then told that, another server, Deathwing, would be offered the same the same deal. Im not sure if Deathwing was underpopulated of broken too.. regardles, Initially we were all upset and raging on our server forum, "we have a huge population on daggerspine, we will have huge waiting ques to enter game if u merge comunites bla bla and more bla..." A year later every1 was happy and few even remembered (or atleast mentioned) that we were 2 disting comunities before the merge. Kazzak hosted APEX and other decent EUropean gilds unitl they mass migrated elsewhere after they made Nax easy mode... the point? Server merges have absolutely NO negative effects and helps keeping players which would otherwise quit due to living on ghost servers... Besides one last point. A game like wow can afford to NOT have a corsserver LFG tool cos it has 11 (fine 10.3 million..) players... WoW is (or was) a 24/7/365 expereince.. If u wanted to raid on Xmas eve at 00:30 am you would find others playing too... with 4 million players at the best, devided in US and EU comunities, so lets just say 2 million on each side for simples... well 2 million devided by how many servers? 20ish? do i have to elaborate on that?

PLS STOP! DID YOU PLAY World of Worcaft, BEFORE and AFTER they implemented the corsserver LFG system? People who claim it ruinied comunities either started playing wow a year or 2 ago and has no experience on what the LFG did to the comunity.... or they never played it at all.... I was there when they introduced the LFG in TBC and when they made it crosserver in WOTLK and i also remember doing the first raids with random groups found with the LFG tool.... THe sense of "killing comunities" arrived because people who had been playing for 4 or 5 years had just got bored.. those left playing felt abbandoned and now erroniously blame the lfg tool. JUST TO make it CLEAR. croserver LFG came in 2008-2009. the REAL downfall of WoW subscription started in 2010. to be precise 2010 = 11.3 m. accounts. while 2011 10.3 m. . Consider Wow never really touched the 12 million accounts mark even at its peak times. THe years 2008-2009 can be considered the last "good" days of wow, good refering to popularity and is not correlated with the end. the LFG tool HELPED make WoW more popular and not the countrary... IF you argue otherwise you are either A) never played wow B) barely played it in its laters stages C) you have bad memory and are probably one of those guys who thinks he remembers enjoying 18hrs of ALterac Valley.. no sane person would want to go back to that... seriously...

The issue of "misbahaving" or being a total "***" is easily resolvable as i posted on page 60 or something. I refer to the system windows and steam is using. Players have cross game username that can be rated by other players. Too many negative reports will jeopardize your ability to group with other people. THis will not only damage the player in that game but also in other games of the same distributor as the username is the same for all games. Now this issue is adressed by Steam for games which fall in the RPG RTS, sim and more. WHY O WHY can a MMORPG (which is based on social interaction much more than any ther sort of game) punish players that are being unrespectful to other players. Isnt after all comunity a way of learning how to respect others and differences. WHy should Bioware be afraid of instructing antisocial children (we will just call them this.. sorry cliche..) who are being anti social in the game? The game IS based on social interaction (the best loot requires 16 people, so it does require for you to atleast get in a giuld and interact with those people). I mean... U can be temporarily or permanetly banned for insulting some1 but then if you "steal" some1 elses loot its fine.. how is it so? really? to the point. Ninja looters (cos this after all is the heart of Biowares argument against a crosserver lfg) are easily rid of... How, crosserver, crosslegacy reputation. Legacy really solves the issue as fat as it is widened to "per account" not "per server". How/why? well if you have 1 "reputation" per account, whatver you do and all negative considerations on you from the comunity will follow you around from avatar to avatar and server to server. Basically if an account recieves 100 reprts from atleast 5 servers and it is visible to all other players, eventually this person will have a VERY hard time finding groups and the sort.. THis requires for a specific function. report NInja, (has to be separate from report spam etc) so that players use it only and specifically for that. A certain amount of negative reviews can also gief a negative buff. for example a 1 week buff that makes you lose priority in LFG to the 1st X people who enter the que after you. Im sure any hot headed Rager would consider twice before stealing loot and such after 1 week of no FPs or atleast very few. To avoid abuse of the function is also rather simple: above said buff (or whatever punishment) must have certain requirements. EG. 20 reports (from different accounts) <avoids 1 players reporting another from diffrent avatars and servers> must be from atleast 5 different server <avoids comunities or guilds from harassing one player>. A social game that gives incentives for socializing (better gear from larger group content) should also discourage antisocial behaviour, like ninja looting. BIOWARE NEEDS to understand a non crosserver LFG system is absolutely no good. I mean at that point just make /1 (general chat) work throughout the server and not only in location. that way people on the same server will have more ease at finding groups. The issue is not finding other players to FP with not because they arn't interested or are just not listening/reading. Its the lack of population mostly.... I am begining to be bewildered from Bioware's complete lack of interest in what other developers have done... im not talking only about blizz but as mentioned above steam etc. why is what others have learnt not of interest from Bioware? do they want to learn on their own skin? DId they consider i might not be available for them to learn on my skin? It is ABSOLOUTELY pivotal that bioware understand the request here being advanced by the comunity. a LFG tool MUST MUST MUST be corsserver or just dont bother....

mah your all just palying at who knows it all... the issue of offtanking really only comes into play in raiding/operations for one. SOMETIMES offtanks take care of trash mobs in raid operations or adds during boss fights. they EXIST not because they have have less mitigation ability than a Main tank, but because they have aoe taunting abilities. NOW the REAL reason why people have offtanks is for BOSS fights that require 2 or more tanks. Usually the reason is for some debuff. EXAMPLE: every 30 seconds boss puts buff on tank that increases damage recieved by 10% and stacks. So at the 3rd buff the "offtank" grabs agro off the Maint tank. AT THAT point the main tank becomes the offtank and viceversa.... 1:30 mins later tanks switch again ... etc. Differnt typologoes of tanks go along with different typologies of boss fights. for example shadow tanks have better magic dmg resistance so they will be better at fights who do magic dmg. THis does not mean a guardian tank will not be able to tank it in case u dont have a shadow tank in the Ops. likewise in opposite situations. regardless. it is purile to even consider that pre raid/operation gaming requires for offtank or main tank mechanics... and jsut to prove it, ask a Sage to use his lizardman tank vs a boss fight. see how much more he has to heal than when he is healing the OP. as for PVP tanking... who mentioned it? what are you talking about? any sensible mmo player who find a tank in pvp just goes for the healer behind him... just because u remember wow arena fights between warriors and rogues doesnt mean anyof them were spekked to tank..

i am all for freedom, having the xsvr lfg does not prevent people from making groups on chat and entering the instance. I is another tool, not a substitute. being different is more fun when there is an alternative. as for comunities and elitists well what can i say, i always try and remember that i could be talking to anyone on the other side, (hell i've talked to cops in uganda and kids in alaska as a gamer) and to be polite..

id like to add a couple.. even if i doubt some1 will read up to page 52.. to put in context what some have said on the first page. 1) id like to add that, the utility of a crosserver lfg (rahter than just a server lfg) is to mitigate the population distribution through servers. without having to talk about # accounts, subscriptions and so on, we can agree that the player base has stabilized. While some are unnafected (on the populated servers) many already inhabit ghost realms. Players from these servers quit everyday, if free merges between such servers are not provided swiftly, the only hope to save these servers and their population/comunities, is a crosserver lfg system. 2) it seems to me from bioware's answer that the only real reason by which they do not want to implement a lfg crosserver system is for badbehavious and ninja looting. (we could mention poor FP experience, but we can counterbalance that with the casual player who can play 8-10 hours a week and would rather have a bad experience than none at all). Before I even evaluate on their points, i'd like to say it just sounds fishy, and that its just an excuse to not say "crosserver for some unkown reason requires for huge technical changes and is a massive amount of work and we'd really like to avoid doing it cos we almost forgot what our children look like and would like to spend a weekend at home with em..." but if one were to consider their points then. a> the looting issue can be solved with a more intelligent loot system... 8 years after wow seems like a pretty good time to innovate the AI behind it? maybe? yes ofc more work.. whatdya say... b> bad behaviour. well for 1 there is the ignore function, which should be crosservers. secondly, take what other have done. Windows provides players with "social ranking" as you can tag an account as "good to play with" or .. bad etc etc... without having to use staff to regulate the comunity itself can help. if a player get 10 or 20 or more complains he can, for example, be penalized by losing priority in the LFG system to the first 10 (or whatever) players who join the list after him. Basically, if being an *** and bothering others is/ or can be punished by the comunity with temporary penalties, which reduce your chances of going to fp etc.. then any paying customer would adjust his behaviour. Misuse or abuse of such function is easily bipased by using a # cap of complaints which must be from different servers. so if for example. a player gets 5 complains from a minimum of 3 servers then he is punished with lets say a 1 week buff that makes him lose priority to other players in the lfg system.. seriously, steam and windows have used one username per client for all their products. so if lets say you've been a total pain in the neck while playing game X and all the comunity knows u and hates you and recognises you. so you drop the game and buy a new game, game Y, all the comments that players have posted on you for game X will be visible to players of game Y. The issue of of bad behaviour encouraged by random grouping is easily solved by providing players with an identity which can be graded by other players. without having to use real names, fb accoutns and the sort, it is sufficient to provide a crosserver system with crosserver reputations. This ofc requires for Bioware to develop programs that can do this. so no you guys cant go home for the weekend, infact go buy a hammok and put it in the office and buy canned food to last you for a month or 2....

hey ive said things pertinent to this thread elsewhere. I tend to write walls of text. forgive me if i copy and paste 3 comments i posted elsewere out of context. I hope they are selfexplanatory and apologize if not so. ------ I am in swtor terms a decemberist. for those who don't have a clue wot im on about, it means i bought the game for early acess but did so a month before release. It might seem boring but its pertinent to my arugment and i would spend a couple of words explaining this better for those who dont know. Bioware decided to provide early access to all players who pre-oredered the game. the window of early access was planed to be of 5 days before release. People started ordering in august. when in december they opened the server early for said service access was provided to clients giving priority to prior bookings. in simple words people who booked 1st got in 1rst and those who booked last, had to wait more. I got in 3-2 days before launch as did most late bookers. Now, first of all due to the apparently high number of clients, they started early access 2 days earlier. And then they started opening servers according to need. What they had originally planed and what was their strategy i can only guess. However, this is what i observed and thus deduce. They seemed to be opening new servers by demand, so as they sent out invites and people logged in and chose a server, when they saw that the population on servers provided was full they would open a new one. During those days all servers had heavy populations and ques to enter were up to 20-30 minutes long. go check these same forums for proof.. So in those 7 days they just popped servers like crazy.. If they had already decided in advance that they would open X number of services or if they just followed demand i do not know. REgardless, it doesnt take a master in economy nor sociology r IT to look at the servers now and see that the servers are much less crammed. supposidly there are just 1.7 subscribers left atm so Bioware can pretent not to see the king is naked But the server policy they applied turned out to be lacking at the least. and that is undebatable. My second point. I could start by talking about how to create sense of a place in a virtual world. but this is long enough. I've read posts people seem to be adverse at the idea of a crosserver pve lfg system. I don't understand why. Moreover, i see it as the only thing that can save the game atm. it widens the comunity. besides its not as if we walk to instances. we just pass from one loading screen to another and besides, most flashpoints are on fleet so there is very little travellin implied. now when wow introduced the crosserver lfg system the game was already 2-3 years old. players had had to travel all over to get to remote isntances, and going to RFK for an alliance player meant finding a group in Irongorge and travelling with it all the way to southbarrens, using flyers, ships and mounts. it was a 10-15 minute voyage, and diffused that sense of going somewhere to go somewhere and taking time to do so which gave u the impression of place even in a virtual place. now as i mentioned there is no real travelling to FP's in SWTOR, frankly there is very little travelling in swtor at all, as ships take the same time to travel from fleet to crouscaunt as it does to go to tatooine or illum. No sense of distance, no sense of space nor place... why is it we dont want a crosserver lfg system?? not sure... sooo.. my point. servers are getting depopulated finding groups is getting harder, the game is still young if population keeps decrising at this rate in a 364 days ull just need 2 servers... new content, bug fixes etc. sure. before that allow the comunity to exist, either merge some servers real fast, or introduce crosserver lfg so being on an isolated server isnt all that bad. Also allow for character migrations (paid or not even if paid wont help much), people have lvled characters on dead servers or servers that have formed foreign languages, they might not be too inclined to restart from 0 to go play with friends or simple in their own language. allow them to transfer chars before they quit the game.. just do something thats relates to these problems instead of working on the legacy system which is nice but frankly secondary atm --------- Quote: Originally Posted by Voidence Truth is we dont NEED a LFG, But all you WoW babies are so used to insta everything that you WANT one. Gimme Gimme Gimme players like you are KILLING MMO's. now, in wow youd sometimes have to travel 12-15 minutes to get to the instance once u had found a group (group of 5 not 4 btw). the number of instances (or fp) available at launch was very high, both as far as lvling instances and cap lvl instances. Heroic instances were only introduced after the 1st expansion. the looking for group system was introduced after the 2nd expanion, 4 or 5 years after release. as i had pointed out, players in wow had done a lot more walking an traveling that u'll ever do in swtor. so dont really know whot your point is cos u aint got 1... as far as crosserver lfg systems not allowing for community building or bonding i disagree. For one the MAIN CITY (or fleet) does not foster socialiazation. it is symetrical and boring and one tends not to keep an eye out for other players etc etc... moreover this game has proven to be a more truly RPG experience and is more adapt for a small group of friends rather than wider gaming comunities. not that im against, but it would be a change to have a game where uberguilds have it best etc etc.. to the point, random groups for instances are always at the best a random experience, where some1 is farming the fp for the 7nth time and wants to skip all dialogues and dash trough content while another is there for the first time and would like more time... U can always lfg on /gerneral and do FP with players from your server, having a lfg crosserver system can only help tbh another consideration. This game seems to be a bit more casual friendly than the average mmo. So to this end, lets say a casual player can dedicate 9-12 hours a week at best to the game? know, work family etc.. How do you think that player feels about having to stand in fleet 2-3 hours to MAYBE find a group to a fp? scenario: he will be pissed cos he spent 2 hours infront of the pc without doing anything instead of spending the evening with the misses. the misses is pissed cos he didn't spend the evening with her, (she ofc doesn't care if he did or did not find a group to fp). scenario. Hardcore player who wants a sense of comunity and whatever, can keep LFG on genreal chat. and, honestly the hardcore player (or just not casual), who plays lets say 30 hours a week, most probably is part of an active guild and spending more time playing bonds more with other members. In other words the less casual player should have plenty of chances of grouping with friends without having to use a lfg crosserver tool. while those who want a fast run can use it without harming anyone. Let me just say something of the so "Hated" crosserver lfg tool from WoW. I remember when it was implemented, ot exactly sure if befre or after wrath of the litch kind (2nd expansion) but it was some time after they had implented the heroic mode for instances, (which was with the 1st expansion). the lfg tool was all very nice but also rather unused as, most of the population in TBC (expansion 1) had already done normal instances and were keen on doing heroic, yet the lfg tool did not give any restrictions and they had also removed some of the pre requisites to Heroic mode instances. the consequence was that using the crosserver LFG tool for heroic instances was wild guess which often wasnt worth the gamble. yet for the above mentioned casual player, it was a handy tool which helped make mmorpgs more popular. hell the rest of us also kept using it. comunities in wow died for other reasons, mostly i think cos after 5 years it was time to move on.. regardless, back to the point. There was one other factor that helped to make this tool "accepted" and after that popular. it was the amount of players wow had. with 11 million subscriptions the LFG crosserver tool transformed wow into a 7/11 and with the festivity events it was truly 24/7/365, hell if you had been dumped on xmas eve and decided to go raiding at 24:00 on the 24 of december you probably would find some1 else who wanted to too with crosserver lfgs. another side note. pvp crosservers. wow made pvp crossrealms. pvp groups were devided in groups of 4 servers almost since the very begining. eventually, they widened it to all servers at the same time they implmented the lfg system.. ill pass on conclusions and thaughts. just like to point out that i havn't said all the above just to rage against swtor and praise wow, but rather to point out what others have done in particular the most succesfull with the hope that it can be used or considered witha constructive approach.