Wel done quoting me out of context and proving your complete lack of argument. You just went down in my estimation from 'nostalgia blinded and doesnt understand' to 'blatant troll who has no intrest in debating things'.

Raiding with meters = Taking a multiple choice exam. You studied, you learned, you take the exam, you pass and so do your 15 friends, or one of them fails and you get told which one. You help him study for the re-sit, take the test again and you all pass, there is a sense of acievement, you move on to something else. Raiding without meters = Taking a multiple choice exam where the questions are hidden. Doesn't matter if you studied or learned, you have as much chance of passing as the next guy. You have 70 tries and eventually pass. Now add to this example that you can't progress untill all 15 of your friends also pass this exam all on the same attempt. But you also don't get told who failed. does this make you smarter than the guy who passed first time when he could see the questions? No, you managed it through trial and error to claim otherwise is foolish. Its time for the anit-meter crew to come up with solid reason as opposed to 'I dont want to put effort in, its only a game' and 'massive generalisation coupled with insults'.

This is such a flawed argument its unreal. If you are trying to claim that you can 'count the animations' of everyone in your group and remember them all, then assosiate numbers to those animations, then compile that into a table after the fight is finished to analyse the numbers on healing, damage taken and damage done, then you are a liar. If you aren't claiming that then not having meters etc is not the same as what you are describing, because at the moment there is no numerical feedback from fights in SWTOR. Stop trying to play the intelectual highground when you are advocating ignorance.

Except that other people shouldn't be forced to stop playing because you don't want to put the effort in to succeed. Its lazy and selfish.

Its not dumbing anything down, its meaning that you can't be bad. Let me post this again, try and read it this time folks. Raiding with meters = Taking a multiple choice exam. You studied, you learned, you take the exam, you pass, there is a sense of acievement, you move on to something else. Raiding without meters = Taking a multiple choice exam where the questions are hidden. Doesn't matter if you studied or learned, you have as much chance of passing as the next guy. You have 70 tries and eventually pass. Now add to this example that you can't progress untill all 15 of your friends also pass this exam all on the same attempt. But you also don't get told who failed. does this make you smarter than the guy who passed first time when he could see the questions? No, you managed it through trial and error to claim otherwise is foolish. Its time for the anit-meter crew to come up with solid reason as opposed to 'I dont want to put effort in, its only a game' and 'massive generalisation coupled with insults'.

You are assuming that he doesn't do this already? Again the anti-meter crowd with the insults and digs as opposed to haing an actual point.

No, actually you'll find I'm 27, have a job and a life. You'll also notice that my posts have had these things called 'points' and haven't strayed into mass generalisation and insults. You might want to try this if you want to sound credible. Being good at something and not wanting to waste what time you do have on the game carrying 'real man' who can't be ****ed to learn his class =/= Epeen kiddy. It just means I don't want to waste time carrying you because you want to use the excuse 'its just a game' and have others pick up your slack.

Wrong, because recount points out who stood in the fire, who didnt dps adds, who didnt interupt. This is one of the biggest 'anti-meter' arguments yet it has no weight in the real world, since its actually a point for meters.

Its a bi-product of our "everyones a special little snowflake, there are no winners or losers" education systems. People get a shock when they hit the real world and find out that this isn't in fact the case and performance is important when your lack thereof can hinder other people.

But you declaring that you should be allowed to impose your view and segregate people who want to compete is in no was a double standard and hypocritical. Seriously, how can some of you people not see what you are typing.

This is a moot point, since when someone is doing that in a group that anyone with half a brain is in they will say "dude, *** is with the FoL spamming and 60% overheals, sort it out" Quite the numerophobia, recount exposes people not doing their job and wanting an easy ride.

I'm also willing to bet that NesTea, HUK, MC, ForGG, Leenock etc mke a lot more money than 99.9% of chess players.

Actually, if you want to be accurate, Its nothing like car phones. Because meters cause harm to noone. Its like saying they shouldn't have indicators, cause why should anyone else know what you're doing.

Actually, its people like you, who insist that cars dont come with wheels because that other popular car company makes them like that, that are going to kill the game. I can also honestly say regarding this 'comunity' that the vocal people of this forum are some of the most closed minded, prejudist and vile beings I have ever encountered, in real life, or in gaming circles, and I used to play CS competatively, so thats saying something.

You are wrong. I am perpetually undergeared in WoW, I happily pass updrops, because as far as I'm concerned Gear =/= Skill and I can perform without it. I absolutely hate Gearscore and crap like that. So instead of trying to villainise me, how about you address my exam point and see if you can form a logical answer to it.

You may notice that this gets ignored by people that arent you, this is the third or fourth time I've posted it in one of these discussions and the numerophobes always seem to skim over it, or have no reply for it. Either way, it will be ignored by those rabidly against having performance measured.

Yes you are, min maxing exists anyway. I was looking up other talent trees for marauders out of intrest the other day and out of the 7 or so I found, they are all pretty much identical to mine with 1 or 2 point differences. Its just nice to have solid facts and figures to work off and measure yourself with.

Answer this multiple choice exam, all of the questions are covered up. If you manage to pass after 70 attempts, does it make you smarter than the guy who passed it first time without the questions covered up? No, it just means that you wasted far more time doing it than the other guy, and quite possibly have less knowlege on the actual subject the test was based on. Now imagine that but where you cant move on and do something else till the other 15 people in your group have also passed their tests. TL : DR your point is invalid, try again.

The bad player is you. In all honesty. Look at how rabid you are that you don't want any form of performance measurement. If I turn off my DPS meter in wow, I don't get griefed about my DPS, because I'm still doing the same amount and I'm not a bad player. I actually pretty much despise WoW and literally only play it cause I've got a bunch of mates that do. I love this game but I'm not so blinkered to realise it is missing things. You want this game to exclude features just cause they are in WoW? By that logic, I'll go remove the wheels and steering wheel from your car, because other brands of car have them too, wouldn't want them to be to similar now would we? Also, there were and are DPS meters and parsers in MMO's other than WoW. Stop being an idiot.

Yes, I'm waiting to read an actual valid point to reply to instead of just conjecture and groundless fear mongering about the content becoming undo-able. Hard modes are meant to be hard, not just a place where you can stroll through and get better gear.

I'm not saying it will, but failing over and over because someone isn't doing their job and you cant tell who. Thats just obtuse and needless when there are proven ways which work and increase the enjoyment of the game. Don't like the meter? Don't use it, if you are as solid as you say without one then you wont get griefed. Issue solved.

You do know other MMO's besides wow have combat logs / damage meters / parsers etc? Or are you one of the 'Be different from WoW for the sake of being different' crew? That mentality is insane, can you imagine if car manufacturors had taken that approach? "We wont use round wheels, aircon, cd players or seatbelts, cause thats what that other company uses".... Actually rediculous.

Compromises arent required. Frankly, if someone is misusing the tool that badly, I wouldn't want to play with them. Then again, noones ever complained about my DPS/interupts and I don't stand in fire. Coincidence?

This 110% The numerophobes would have this guy counting animations and trying to make a list instead of giving him a useful tool due to their fear of exposure.

Fixed that for you buddy.