That is a good question. I assume 20% because that seems to be a standard value, but I have no data -- I've never used them before. Also, is it just me, or did its numbers get buffed recently? I remember people quoting its numbers and calling them pitiful, but it actually does pretty respectable damage for what it does.

Um... What? Vengeance is meant to deal damage. Is your argument that marauders should be the only warrior AC capable of doing damage? Why? A DPS Jugg cannot tank while DPSing, and can't buff the raid like marauders can. If your suggestions went through, there would be literally no reason to bring a Jugg other than to tank. This must be a troll...

Okay, your website looks pretty frickin' awesome. I'll definitely be investigating further.

Sure thing!

I remember that! Story mode, but a good run. SNV is probably my favorite.

Hello, friends! I've been a relatively active player in the endgame scene, and I've geared myself up through PuGs in both normal and hard modes, but it's starting to become apparent that PuGs are only going to take me so far. I need a guild that makes progression their objective. I have a diverse set of skills, and I can fill both the tank and DPS roles in at least the minor hardmode operations (SNV, TFB), though my DPS is better geared by a small margin, and I do prefer to DPS (I have a 2pc set bonus on DPS, no set bonus on tank). My gear is a mix of 180s, 168s, and 162s, though mostly 168s. Both sets are fully augmented -- Strength for DPS, Defense for Tank. I've cleared all but the last boss of hard mode SNV as the tank (final boss enraged, we had a few DPS who had never done the fight) -- I was accompanied by members of Let the Wookie Win for that one! Good people. I have cleared TC in Hard Mode as a DPS, but I haven't been able to find a full Hard Mode operation to try my DPS in. I have Full-Cleared all the Story Mode operations except for TFB and DP, but lack full clears on those only because none of the PuGs I've joined have been going past the weekly. I have a relatively open schedule, though I can't do anything earlier than 6 PM EST (3 PST). Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays are free. Lastly, and most importantly, I am very patient, and I am free of drama. I will never complain about anything but bad players in PvP (we all need to vent), I won't roll need on gear that isn't mine without permission, and I am a fast learner. I research, and I pay close attention to detail. If you're interested in talking to me, send a tell or in-game mail to Wrector. Reaper-seven is my other 55 alt, an Operative, but he isn't geared for much aside from regs PvP.

You failed! (Crowd boos)

Only reason to take Malice is it's on the way to Brutality.

I honestly think Enduring Bastion absorbs more damage than Enraged Defense.

Sorry for the newbish question, but what is skankhealing?

Good Madness Sorcs and Snipers can still 1v1 me, ED or no, and I am probably one of the better Juggs on my server. Vengeance is still as vulnerable to kiting as ever.

^^^^^ This. 99% of the time if I am using Enraged Defense, I also have to pop another DCD or else I will just die anyway. This is how you see ED suddenly top people off -- it's not ED doing the work, it's medpac + Endure Pain, and then your damage is being mitigated by ED so that it looks like he suddenly healed to full. If I am being focused, especially in huttball, and I'm somehow surviving, ED has nothing to do with it. I'm being nuked by a healer, end of story.

I was surprised when I first learned that Vig isn't as obvious as Veng. Unstoppable even looks and sounds like something guardians would use, and it's window of effect is very clearly marked, fading away as its duration expires. I would have thought that was part of the balance, and I was fine with it... But why is guardian unremitting so subtle? As it is, I can immediately tell vengeance is nearby by the sound alone, but Vig is so hard to spot that I have to scan for shien form.

Solution found. Moving on...

Neither do crappy Juggernauts.

I've met a total of one sorc that could beat me 1v1 since 2.7 hit. It's not that bad.

Only once every minute, and not while also doing damage (Charge > Push > Charge might be CC and position change for both parties, but it is not damage, and probably would not even break a sorc's static bubble). Technically, Unstoppable only lasts 2.5 seconds unless you start shooting the Juggernaut from range the instant he charges, because the 4 seconds start counting down at the start of the GCD, not the end. This is why the last hit of ravage is vulnerable -- and it's often vulnerable for slightly more than 0.5 seconds due to lag. Even a low ping of 100ms can add 0.1 second to that vulnerability. Generally, halfway through the "fwhoosh" sound on the overhead windup is where it's vulnerable. I'm willing to compromise at 10-15 seconds, since it is a 2-minute cooldown, and that's a standard duration for a big 2-minute cooldown. 5 seconds wouldn't even give it the chance to burn all its charges unless you were up against a serious dot spec. 30 seconds is probably too long.

The problem with that is, Enraged Defense is rather useless against focus fire. Saber Ward is the cooldown you use when you're getting focused, and if you're REALLY getting focused, Saber Ward + Enraged Defense can help you last through it -- but right off the bat, that's our two best cooldowns, both used for one moment, neither of which will be back for a good while. Saber Reflect is very situational, and has a super short duration. Endure Pain reverses everything it did to help you after 10 seconds. ED is a very important cooldown for keeping Juggernauts viable at all, now that Rage is nerfed. Reducing ED to 5 seconds would mean it needs a boost elsewhere to remain competitive (such as a major cooldown reduction), and I know that's not what you're trying to accomplish.

Vengeance vs. Vengeance matchups are very tricky, because Vengeance has a ton of low-damage, fast-ticking dots, which are needed to proc Destroyer, which means ED will heal to full every time. Whoever uses ED last will have the upper hand, but if you wait too long, you die. I still think Madness/Hybrid sorcs are better than Vengeance Juggs, even post-ED. That makes ED's balance rather troublesome -- it's very annoying to fight against, and it does give Vengeance a do-over for a single fight, but it has a very long cooldown, and is also the only thing keeping Vengeance viable in rated teams -- not overpowered, viable. Without it, Vengeance just doesn't last long enough to make its sustained damage work, because it has very little burst, no big damage reduction talents (outside of an extra 15% during a self-heal that reverses itself after 10 seconds), and is as vulnerable to kiting as ever, so to give it a fighting chance, it needs to be able to last through a beating. True, but as long as each attack was worth more than 3000 damage, a rather low and common number, the best it does is negate or reduce the damage taken, not heal you. I've hit ED and still been dead 2 globals later unless I hit another cooldown simultaneously.

It's the opposite. Most good Juggs do open with ravage because they know bad sages don't know the timing needed to stop it, and they can get it back in 2 globals anyway. If you don't open with ravage, you can't hold onto it for more than one global because of rampage. If they use impale and shatter back to back, they proc rampage and reset ravage. If ravage wasn't on CD, that was a wasted ravage, and they will never force scream without the auto crit buff, which is also granted by using impale and shatter back to back. Vengeance won't waste rage on other attacks, because they suck, so nothing is gained by sitting on ravage. If he doesn't open with ravage, it's because it was on CD from an earlier fight. Vengeance really doesn't have as many options as you think. The only thing keeping such a predictable rotation viable is unstoppable. In any case, the last hit of ravage is vulnerable, and any good sage knows the timing needed to KB/CC. And if the Juggs don't open with ravage, you can CC it on any hit, so take advantage of that. Force push has a 1 minute cooldown, so once it's used, it's gone. You must also be facing the target or the game yells at you instead of using it, so if you must run, run behind him. You will be out of its 10m range before he turns around unless he has superman reflexes.

That does seem buggy. It isn't bugged for Vengeance, at least, so I wouldn't know.

This guy was good. Definitely balance and knew all my tricks. He knew how to bait saber reflect, circumvent saber reflect, stayed at arms length when charge was off CD, and would wait for my ravage to zip away with egress-buffed force speed. I just wish his name hadn't been so... phallic.

Vengeance is also still as vulnerable to kiting as ever, so a smart sage can make you look like a fool. Very few sages are smart, but I found one that beat me 3 times in a row in a 1v1 last night, and he made both me and his sage buddies look like chumps. I wasn't even mad, it had never happened before.

This is true. Vig/Veng can handle hiccups in its rotation with minimal impact, since it's attacks are all pretty much interchangeable, while focus/rage has to align lots of buffs at once before unleashing the pain. I was a vengeance Jugg during the darkest days, too, so I know your burden.

Least by far is the Juggernaut tank. Loads of great defense cooldowns, but almost nonexistent damage. This is because Juggernaut spec trees increase damage either by doubling the output of otherwise lackluster abilities, whether by cooldown reset or auto-crits, or adding new abilities entirely. Jugg tanks get none of that. Well, maybe Crushing Blow at the end of the tree, but that's about it. I wouldn't know about who does the most damage. None of them really do great damage, though if I had to hazard a guess, it'd probably be Assassin.