While I'm all for giving Sin DPS trees more survivability, I would never advocate it at the cost to other classes. Doing what you suggest would be another example of poorly thought out nerf that would have pretty big impact on Mara's performance and survival in PVE as well, since it acts as their threat dump and temporary damage mitigator. Force Camo already got nerfed in 1.2, it doesn't need any more adjustments.

Most of us don't give a **** about PVP. It's our PVE viability that was hit the hardest. Take your unoriginal whining to the PVP forums where it belongs.

Deception sin may be a glass canon, but there are bigger clay and iron canons out there. Regardless, even if deception was a prefectly viable spec, it doesn't help those of us who want to tank and whose guilds depend on them to tank.

First off, your math is wrong. Independent damage reducing effects are multiplicative, not additive. Wither reduction is applied before damage goes out, then the mitigation on the receiving target is applied. So if a mob does 1000 dmg and you have 43% reduction, you take 570 dmg. If a mob is debuffed by Wither first (-5%), it does 950 dmg, which after 43% reduction is 541.5 dmg, or an overall mitigation of 45.85%. So even your imaginary Jugg 47.5% dmg mitigation and no Sin in the same raid with him, mitigates more damage and has a lot better tanking cooldowns. Second, Wither is a debuff on mob that reduces its damage done everyone, it doesn't benefit the assassin alone, but your Jugg tank buddy and everyone else in the raid as well. Btw, PTs have a similar debuff, so maybe you should be asking for the debuff on the Jugg too? But that makes it a utility issue, doesn't make Sin's mitigation better. Third, your 47.5% damage reduction is total BS. My lvl 49 modded Jugg is already sitting at over 49% dmg reduction. Rekata geared ones are easily in the low 50s. Hint: look into Immortal/Vengeance hybrid tank spec. Finally, if you want to talk about balance, why do you ignore the fact that PTs have been the best tank since release and yet remain untouched by nerfs. This Sin nerf is because of PVP and nothing else. You don't know *** you're talking about. Just sit down and shut up. NEXT!

- Harnessed Darkness no longer increases damage of next Force Lightening. - Energize no longer grants 100% critical chance on next Shock, instead it reduces its force cost by 100%. These changes alone would balance Darkness Sins in PVP by removing their burst potential, while keeping their PVE dps/threat intact by allowing to actually use Thrash in their rotation without completely force-starving themselves.

Can you? And even if you can't, you can look at MOX reports and see that other tanks already outperform us on some encounters. They also show how insignificant our self healing is in HMs. Have you even done HM Denova?

This. Because of douches that PVP in tank spec and DPS gear, abusing poorly designed DPS talents in Darkness, my PVE tanking spec has been destroyed. Lowest mitigation tank made even lower mitigation. If any nerf was needed to shut up the PVP whiners, it should've been damage portion of HD and Energize talents in Darkness, the survivability shouldn't have been touched at all. You could even argue that our survivability needs a buff on many encounters.

I'll give you the same reply I gave another retard in another thread. You're so full of ****, your eyes are brown. Sin tanks have about 10% less mitigation than the other two tanks (low 40% vs low 50%) and are therefore already the worst tanks on any boss that loves to ignore shields (Stormcaller and Kephess in Denova just to name two). Self healing in ops is insignificant. Jugs and PTs already take about 80% of the dmg we do on attacks that don't get defended or shielded. With these changes, sin's damage intake will be far too great to heal through on any encounter where shields are heavily ignored or useless, it would be idiotic to use us over the other two tanks who have both better mitigation and more/better tanking cooldowns. This change is clearly an answer to PVP whiners. I couldn't care less if they got rid of self healing all together and brought our mitigation UP to where the other two tanks are. Instead, they're making us even worse for PVE. If these changes go through, I'm done with my sin, and quite possibly with the game too. And in that case, my brother and gf will be done as well, and THAT is a fact, not some empty nerd ragequit threat.

You're so full of ****, your eyes are brown. Sin tanks are already the worst tanks on any boss that loves to ignore shields (Stormcaller and Kephess in Denova just to name two). Jugs and PTs already take about 80% of the dmg we do on attacks that don't get defended or shielded. With these changes, sin's damage intake will be far too great to heal through on any encounter where shields are heavily ignored or useless, it would be idiotic to use us over the other two tanks who have both better mitigation and superior tanking cooldowns. This change is clearly an answer to PVP whiners. I couldn't care less if they got rid of self healing all together and brought our mitigation UP to where the other two tanks are. Instead, they're making us even worse for PVE. If these changes go through, I'm done with my sin, and quite possibly with the game too. And in that case, my brother and gf will be done as well, and THAT is a fact, not some empty nerd ragequit threat.

Change in expertise scaling is a big cause behind reduced TTK. While expertise may be balanced on equally geared opponents, the bolded part of the quote is something that many are neglecting or choosing to ignore. Majority of players were NOT in full BM prior to 1.2, and while getting BM is significantly faster now, it doesn't change the fact that right now most people are still working towards it in the same gear they used prior to 1.2, Centurion/Champion (which did not get the expertise buff like BM gear) or mix of PVE gear. The expertise change succeeded in doing what BW intended to do, put a final nail in the coffin of separation of PVP and PVE gear, forcing those who enjoy both aspects of the game to grind twice as much as those who partake in only one. As someone belonging to the former group, and also an altaholic, I loathe being forced to collect so many sets of gear.

In its current state it should just be changed to be a mount alternative. Basically you're spending 2mill for a 12 second mount on a 2 minute cooldown. Calling it garbage would be a compliment.

Gf and I two-man the empire one and it's a total joke. The only healer is my companion. I will try soloing it tonight.

Deal.

For pure PVP, I'm thinking something like this: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/marauder#9fe8e8elc-i-i

What's wrong with that? You can put together your own raid with other "awesome" players that don't care about logs. According to the anti-log crowd, they're majority, and the hardcores that want public logs are a minority, right? So it should be easy to find groups that share your opinion.

I love clueless imbeciles that spew misinformation on the forums and the sheeple that accept it as fact. Small buff on a skill (talent) that was next to useless before. The change was actually on 2pt skill that modified Rupture (15s cd dot) to add 6s snare component to it. 30% was useless since all other snares are at least 50%, no competent player was speccing for it before, now it has some potential use to save rage early in the fight by buying you a few seconds before having to apply the real snare. You still cannot rely on it as a complete snare substitute. Small buff. Too bad it still only affects a handful of abilities in PVP. This was a massive NERF to Annihilation. The utility behind 100% dmg reduction Force Camo was massive, and one of top reasons why Maras had good survivability in WZs. Knocked into fire/acid? FC. Low on HP, need to buy your healer some time? FC. Getting focus fired, want the mindless mob to target someone else for a change? FC. Ton of DOTs? FC. Getting kited and nuked, charge still on CD? FC. Defensive and offensive applications of the ability are endless. Unless it won't break on damage, putting a passive 50% damage reduction on it is just a slap in face since damage reduction is applied only while FC is active. Irrelevant. For Annihilation it's last ability on priority list. Besides, nobody stands in range for it to finish channeling, interruptable or not. This is a buff to Carnage tree, which can spec to also root the target for the duraction of channel. First of all, Trauma effect is 20%, not 30%. Second, effect is not getting buffed at all. If you suspect something is a rumor, don't *********** spread it around. Btw, Sniper/Gunslinger class is getting the Trauma debuff too now, so expect healers to get shutdown from 30m away now. This is a bug fix. You also forgot to mention that Annihilation is losing access to Ferocity, which improved the speed of Predation, huge utility skill for the whole team in PVP, especially hutball. Overall, Annihilation is getting a small nerf in 1.2, while Carnage and Rage are being buffed to become more viable.

I play a tankassin as a main, so I know sprint and knockback on 20s CDs are good counters to charge. However, there is also Force Choke, Predation, Force Camo, Intimidating Roar to counter sprint. Rage spec also gets another gap closer with Obliterate. If the fight is not over by the time the mara has exhausted all those CDs, then yes, the fight would be in favor of the sin. Until then, given equally geared and skilled players, I'd say it could go either way, with RNG as always playing a factor as well. Does the sin have strong tools for kiting a mara? Certainly, but I don't agree that it's a joke as you put it. Anyway, we could theorycraft back and forth all day, but as Astarica said, who gets the opener plays a big factor as well (in that sense, I can see how you would have an advantage in an arranged duel... but I look at it more from a viewpoint of 1vs1 in WZs, where terrain is part of the strategy).

You must have some terrible maras on your server, or none of them are anni spec... or both. (Hint: anni spec puts charge on 12s cd and no min range). I've never had any class successfully kite me on my mara. The only class that I have a hard time maintaining DPS time on is a well played sniper/gunslinger.

What's there to be doing "very very wrong"? Energize + Recklessnes + Relic + Shock, it's not rocket science. If you're not lieing about your numbers, then expertise (and expertise WZ buff) and adrenals are the culprit. I'm not biochem so I don't use adrenals, and I don't pvp enough on my Sin to have BM gear, so when I do PVP I do it in Rekata gear. I've always felt that relics and adrenals should not stack, and I've never been a fan of expertise.

You're full of s**t. Wearing full Rekata re-modded for Power+Surge + artifice power relic, the highest Shock crit I saw is ~3k. Even with second half-shock proc that's ~4.5k, and that's the highest burst a tankassin is capable of in 1 GCD. 3xHD FL is not burst, that's steady damage. Tankassins are very well rounded. They remind me of prot palies in WoW, good sustained damage and hard to kill 1vs1. But the game is not balanced around 1vs1, so get over it. In any kind of competitive PVP (i.e. the way WoW arena was) where coordinated focus fire and CCs are used to burn down designated targets, specs like these are not competitive. Even though my Sin is my main, I prefer pvp on my mara, he's got far more stopping power.

27/14/0 24/17/0 Pretty much anything that relies on Induction while not using Surging Charge. I feel sorry for any Deception sins leveling too. No more leveling in Dark Charge.

I'll bet my 6-figure salary that I don't

And vice versa, np. Keep the ratio 1:3 same as merc and warzone commendations. Tionese <=> Centurion Columi <=> Champion Rakata <=> Battlemaster

Sure, you can have it the same time I can get expertise gear from doing PVE.

Let's stick to the topic and keep this thread bumped. Our passive is already pretty lackluster with 5 endurance per rank as is, but if it's not even granting the 25% bonus to one of our main abilities as it's suppose to, that's a pretty major bug.