Or he has very talented underlings. For all we know Ravage's main strengths lie in being an excellent administrator.

And bear in mind, it's because of the Star Cabal. The Star Cabal was ultimately defeated, but not before they manipulated the Empire into the doomed meatgrinder of Corellia.

Why would a Republic mole Agent want to ensure the Imperial operation on Makeb fails? You end up keeping the planet intact with a huge amount of isotope 5 at the core, and the Empire can't risk maintaining a large military presence on the world. That's a hell of a nice Christmas present for your Republic handlers. You traitor. Or alternatively, a good piece of leverage to offer the Republic for a price.

True, the LS hunter isn't LS at all by the standards of Jedi. Then again, neither are most classes. Bear in mind that the Consular at one point is faced with a choice: save one person, or save an entire medical database stated to hold the key to curing a number of widespread and deadly diseases. Saving the person is LS, saving the medical data is DS. Light side and dark side mean different things for different classes so you don't have to worry about one arbitrary code of morality (i.e. the Jedi code) judging all classes and stories.

Let me take a wild guess: the OP is male.

Mako says during the initial Imperial/Mandalorian conflict, Admiral Inverness was the man responsible for most of the Imperial Navy's victories against the Mandalorians, so this is payback.

Thing is, though, you're working for the Mandalorians, not the Empire. Your targets in order are an Imperial admiral, a Republic-affiliated assassin, an infamous smuggler and pirate, a Republic general, and a Jedi Master. The first and last are targets directly chosen by the Mandalorians. The middle three are targets a third party paid the Mandalorians to eliminate and they made them into Great Hunt targets.

The mission mentions that the skytroopers are sabotaging the ship's engines and power systems, presumably making it impossible for the ship to get away.

I think Ravage and Mortis will be the only members of the Dark Council we've met who are still alive as of KOTFE, with Imperius/Oculus/Nox imprisoned by the Zakuul and Marr apparently dead or also imprisoned. Well. IIRC Acina can get killed in the final seeker droid mission. Ravage is the Dark Council member who's always just kind of... there. Same for Mortis. Acina I think can get killed if you take the DS path in the final seeker droid mission. There's also Zhorrid, who takes Jadus' place with the sphere of intelligence if the Imperial Agent doesn't side with him. However, if you do Marr implies on Yavin that he killed Zhorrid for her incompetence. At most, the Dark Council going into KOTFE consists of Ravage, Mortis, Acina, and Jadus, with Vowrawn potentially returning but no word on that as of yet.

You're still just whining. Provide evidence that things in TOR do not happen exactly as presented and therefore KOTFE makes sense for non-Force-sensitives or go away. Not that you will. You have never shown the slightest inclination to argue in good faith about the specifics relevant to this thread. So enjoy your whine-fest, there's clearly no point to arguing with someone who utterly refuses to be engaged on the actual point of contention.

Hold on, let me get those goalposts back... I'm not arguing about "in general." I am arguing about TOR. If you had any evidence to show regarding the original point of contention in this thread, I suspect you'd have posted it already.

Take it if it makes you feel better. Your points are wholly irrelevant to the argument. There is no reason, within the context of TOR, to think the events of the game - which include very powerful Force users getting killed in straight fights by non-Force-sensitives - do not happen exactly as presented, and you have yet to present any evidence that they do not, merely rhetorical "But that's not what REALLY happened" statements. "Countering" your points means nothing. The burden of proof does, and you have yet to provide it.

Yep. All my tangential arguments are irrelevant. So are yours. You have no actual evidence relevant to the argument and everyone in this thread knows it. Do keep whining if it makes you feel better.

Problem for you: everything you just posted is completely irrelevant to the argument. My position: What is shown to happen in the game happens as shown, and therefore it makes complete sense for non-Force-sensitives to participate in the expansion. Your position: But that's not what REALLY happened. Fine. Prove it. Find the statements by Bioware about TOR that support your argument because that is the only evidence relevant to this argument.

And this is completely irrelevant to the argument. Please stop shifting the goalposts.

Because as TOR shows, it's a position with a lot of turnover. Moreover, the story explicitly identifies Jun Seros as the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, the greatest warrior and master of the lightsaber the Jedi have. He is killed, and eventually the Jedi Knight is given that title in the hopes that you'll last a bit longer than your predecessors.

Correct. He's not the only battlemaster because his position is replaced after his death. And the Jedi Knight replaces his replacement after said replacement is also killed.

Ah, yes, the "But he's not REALLY the Jedi Battlemaster" argument. Try again. There are in fact three battlemasters to date in TOR. The first one gets killed by the Bounty Hunter. His replacement gets killed by Imperials (which can include no Sith at all) in Assault on Tython. His replacement is the Jedi Knight PC. Hope those dead man's shoes are comfortable.

You realize that's all completely irrelevant to this argument, right? Funny, really, how everyone saying "No, non-Force-sensitive classes should be chumps and cannon fodder" can only argue that point by bringing in material outside TOR when TOR's story is the only point of contention.

You're still trying to move the goalposts and indeed the entire terms of the argument. TOR does depict the PCs as characters and lore figures. There is no gameplay/lore dichotomy. The Bounty Hunter marches straight in to Jun Seros, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and kills him in a straight fight. Period. There has never been the slightest indication that "events REALLY happened some other way than the game had it happen" for any class. "Actual lore" is powerful Jedi and Sith get killed by non-Force-sensitives, period, unless you can find a statement by the Bioware developers that states otherwise. Remember the Bioware statement about writing the Imperial Agent, that it was inspired by A New Hope and how by all indications Darth Vader answers to Grand Moff Tarkin, constantly taking orders from him and Leia refers to Tarkin as the one holding Vader's leash. The Imperial Agent was explicitly written to answer the question "What kind of non-Force-sensitive human in the Imperial hierarchy would be able to order Darths around?"

And yet other mediums are not what are at hand. The OP of the thread asked "Does it make sense for a non-Force-sensitive to be going up against people like Emperor Valkorion and Prince Arcann, powerful masters of the Force, and win?" Going by TOR's history, which is the only relevant history given that this is TOR's story we're talking about, the answer is a firm "Yes." Other mediums portray Jedi and Sith as far more powerful than TOR does, but TOR's depictions are the only ones that matter when considering how TOR will portray them again. And "that's just gameplay, that totally doesn't actually happen" is nothing but whining with no evidence to back it up. The story confirms yup, the Bounty Hunter killed Jun Seros and possibly Darth Tormen. Yup, the Imperial Agent took down Ardun Kothe. No special lore excuses, no deception, those events happened exactly as presented.

And yet somehow the Bounty Hunter for one canonically shoots, stabs, sets on fire, and explodes quite the track list of powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. The Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, the finest lightsaber duelist of the Order and master of combat, is among them. This entire thread is nothing but whining about how half the PCs in this game should be nothing but cannon fodder for the other half and top out their stories around Act 1 because clearly they can't fight skilled Force-users despite the game consistently demonstrating otherwise.

Key problem for you: this isn't "SW canon" whatever that means these days, and I'm only concerned with the story and gameplay of this game when considering this game's story. This game's story and gameplay strongly support exceptionally talented non-forcey individuals being able to fight and kill exceptionally talented forcey individuals in a fair fight, and so it is logical and sensible that in KOTFE this will continue to be so. It only does not make sense if you derive your mental image of force mutants versus normal people from material other than this game, material this game is not beholden to. As such, I recommend you adjust your expectations of TOR's story and gameplay regarding force mutants to the story and gameplay TOR has already established regarding those mutants.

And yet, Bioware has chosen to portray force-sensitives in this game as human (as it were), not gods incarnate. You claim that Jedi/Sith PCs should always beat non-force-users, and that Bioware chose not to do so to avoid alienating players. You are correct, but for the wrong reasons. In TOR's interpretation of Star Wars, force-users are not as all-powerful as other works have interpreted them to be. Keep being irritated. I'll keep gunning down Sith Lords and Jedi Masters. Quoth a certain assassin who's killed more than his fair share of delusional mutants, they're really not as good as they say they are.

You'll forgive me if I decline to indulge Star Wars' more anime-ish flights of fantasy. Vitiate can eat worlds. A Force-using PC is exactly as vulnerable as one who doesn't have the Force, and everything else is a child playing cops and robbers shouting "I have a force field, your bullets can't hurt me! I have a laser gun, you're all dead!" Unless you seriously plan to beg Bioware to retcon out the existence of fully half the player characters in the game.