True skill that incorporates you actually having to aim and make tactical decisions are truly encompassed in fps. In RTS there is some dice rolling. There are too many factors to call anything real skills in mmo's. Did the designers make the class balanced? Population balanced? The only real skill is min maxing imo.

Its not a crutch. I'm improving my character.

It is a skill, I concur. So is min/maxing. Those skills are the appropriate skills in my opinions to be useful for pvp in mmo's. If you truly want it to be skill base then do a rts or fps.

I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.

Well that depends on how the game is designed, you might be able to do enough dps and heal enough to wear out the dps'er. It all depends on how the game is designed. I know in some other mmo's that lots of healr could easily out heal the dps'er and wear them down and there was nothing the dps'er could do to win unless he out geared the guy. So there has to be a way for each class through stats or abilities to beat someone of equal skill. Sometimes that is gear.

Nothing really here about rated. OP just wants a way to get gear through time and effort. Well except for the last sentence. My mistake.

This whole thread is about "hard cores" having gear progression and nothing to do with rated. Look at the title of this thread.

Those are tatical decisions. Not you actually aiming and hitting a target. Skills is the ability for you actually perform the action you would do. I.E shooting someone from 50 yards while on the move, passing the pall while being rushed from 300pd monster.

I don't need a crutch but I need progression if i want to play a mmo. Why are we changing how mmo's work? I don't care if its gear or new abilities I want new toys to play with. Thats how d&d worked and mmo's are digital copies of d&d.

How do we quantify skill in mmo's when its all dice rolls and rock paper scissors? Certain players will be stronger just from the sheer fact that choice this ac at level 10 and another person chose another ac. If they are of equal gear and skill the person who chose the right class in this encounter wins.

We make them do it for end game raiding, why does it matter for pvp?

There is no fair play when by default there is a rock, paper, scissors design. Class imbalance from the designers can only be overcome by stats.

Very true but also I need to be able to have greater stats to beat scissors when I'm paper.

Because this game is truly based off stats. Its a mmo, do we actually aim at someone? No we tab target/click on them and press a button. The thing I practice is I find out what I can do to counter other people stats or roles. I practice strategies and builds. I min/max, I experiment what I have to have or what skill I need to use to counter someone else's "rolls".

Who said mmo are based on skills? It all dice rolling if I hit you or not unlike FP's. It on how you build your toon and how you operate him that gives you the advatage in the dice roll.

Once you put enough hours into them its no fun. I like to make my toon better. In those other games as soon as I log off I have to start from scratch again. Those game progression only last for that session. I want something where I can log back into and resume my progression. Single player games are no fun since the content is static and never changes while people strategies in mmo evolve over time.

I also bought pvp gear.

People don't understand that playing a lot equal practice. It training, it working hard, its learning your class more and more. They think if you play a lot you should be punished since they are married and have kids. ***, I did my four years of college and got my cs degree and work hard. Just because I play a lot, help my guildies, give information to people on the forums I'm some loser. Just because I don't have obligations like other doesn't mean I live with my parents. Hell I pay for my mom retirement home.

I leveled through warzones and opened my abilities that way.

I'm only in the minority because I'm willing to put hours and hours to become better and progress and not be lazy and expect it to be handed to me.

Because other player are dynamic unlike static pve content.

Are they really getting tired? Did not people have fun leveling their character? Improving your character is the best part of a mmo imo. So now we have to have a cap in pvp but pve does not? Great awesome, kill the game for people who like to progress through pvp.

I don't want that, I want stats. I don't care if get owned or own someone else. I want to improve my toon in game and that's just visceral fluff.

There are more than one definition to hard core from urban dicitonary: hard core having an intense (often excessive) interest in or enthusiasm for some particular activity, pastime or hobby

This is a mmo, its all about to carrots to stick around. Since the dawn of mmo's its been about achieving. Once you take that away mmo's really aren't that fun. The game engines suck compared to fps's. The major factor mmo's have is that you can progress your character through gear or stats. its about development and right now the only way to progress after 1.2 is pve and pvp won't matter for progression.