Marb
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Posts posted by Marb
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Having usually played DPS roles (even on my 'healers) I decided myself to switch to a Tank class and build so I rolled a Vanguard. I was in an easy heroic and the sent kept leaping into the fight before I had grabbed full agro from all the mobs of the groups. I repeatedly told him to WAIT until all the mobs were on me and I had triggered my very visible explosive type AOE to let the group know they could attack now.
Never listened and then complained that I was a bad tank because he kept getting agro, when he would leap in before I HAD agro. Yeah. I ejected him. As a Vanguard I have lots of agro gaining tools. There is no excuse for a group member not to wait until I signal the attack when I have CLEARLY stated what that signal was. So OP, I feel your pain. Running a pure Tank class has made me a significantly better DPS player on my other characters because I know now what to look out for and when to throttle back my attacks so the Tank can maintain agro.
The only time I ignore that advice is if a mob has pealed off and goes after the healer, and then I'll do everything I can to change it's agro focus.
I prefer to think that common group etiquette is well known, but Its the context of the situation that is more important. An overgeared group has no need for a tank in a HM flashpoint, and it is often just easier to let the dps burn everything down, and the healer heal as needed.
Nobody should be having a go at a tank not holding agro in a hardmode flashpoint with everyone burning through in 61's. If a healer in 61's can't keep up dps in a boarding party, thats the healers problem, not the tanks or dps.
These conflicts seem to be focused around the group finder, where you have overgeared players blended with players in gear that the content is balanced for. In a situation where either the healer or the dps are in tionese, then the pace of the flashpoint should be set to accomodate them.
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If your planning on tanking all the way to 50, I would focus on moving up the immortal tree, so you can get to the top tier abilities at the earliest possible level.
The hybrid doesn't really work until you have the full 50 levels worth of skill points to spend in the trees. If you just want to level, with no concern about group content, going down one of the dps trees will get you to 50 a lot quicker.
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Even though the upcoming chapter is shared between all the classes that doesn't mean there wont be a follow-up to the class stories at some point.
Stuff that leaked out of the 1.7 patch showed that there are some preliminary plans to expand the trooper story, and there is evidence to suggest that voice work has been recorded by the companion voice actors post launch.
We could see this content in the form of class exclusive storylines, or shared storylines with class specific content thrown in.
I don't think we have seen the end of class exclusive content in one form or another. The problem is that content like this is expensive, and it may be hard to justify it on an mmo that didn't live up to its predicted revenue streams. We could see content like this, but it will never be as substantial as the 1-50 class stories.
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I find myself using assault a lot? Like pretty much every time I have scream on cooldown, I need to put in an assult there to ensure I have enough rage for the next scream. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong as I keep hearing the threat is better, but I don't see those results in my parses. The dps is better, but the TPS looks to be about the same. How much is "more" threat?
After the opener and smash and ravage go on cooldown I find myself going:
Sunder>Assault>Scream> Sunder>Assault>Impale> Sunder>Assault>Assault>
Here's a log to help see where I'm going wrong:
Augmented 61's with a 63 Might Hilt, hybrid, 1 point in decimate.
Op dummy, no retaliation:
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i only a slight difference in damage. so being full jugg is ok for higher ops?
Full Immortal/Defence is viable. Your actual dps is lower, but your threat modifiers on your abilities are higher to make up for it.
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The only thing I can think of is that you have the wrong target selected, or your single target taunt is actually still on cooldown from the last time you used it.
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Republic wild card would be Mirilian, they could work for any the classes.
Jedi Knight: Human
Jedi Consular: Human, Miriluka (sees through the force)
Smuggler: Human, Twi'lek (any alien race could work, but female twi'lek fits very well here)
Trooper: Human, Zabrak (soldier life goes hand in hand with zabrak culture)
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Sith Juggernaut: Sith Pureblood, Human
Sith Inquisitor: Human, Zabrak (I'm pretty sure Darth Maul is one of the movie archtypes that make up this class, along with Palpatine.)
Imperial Agent: Chiss, Human
Bounty Hunter: Human, Rattataki (Ratattaki tend to have the american accent, they also have a reputation of being fearsome bounty hunters)
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Reposted from the jugg forums.
Very interesting.
Battlefield Command
Getting attacked while in Soresu Form reduces the active cooldown of Force Leap by <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.
Beacon of Might
Reduces the cooldown of Warding Call by <<1>> seconds, increases the damage dealt by Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash by <<2>>%, and reduces the cooldown of Riposte by <<3[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>.
Daunting Presence
Force Leap has a <<1>>% chance to finish the cooldown on Force Kick. In addition, Saber Reflect lasts <<2[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>> longer and generates a high amount of threat on all engaged enemies within 30 meters when activated.
Expeditious Protector
When your guarded target is attacked, you gain Expeditious Protector for 6 seconds, increasing your movement speed by <<1>>%.
Guard and Thrust
Reduces the cooldown of Riposte by <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>> while Saber Ward is active.
Guardianship
Challenging Call has a <<1>>% chance to protect all allies within range, excluding yourself, granting Guardianship, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage. Lasts 10 seconds.
Jedi Warden
Reduces the cooldown of Force Push by <<1>> seconds, and reduces the focus cost of Freezing Force by <<2>>.
Master Focus
Increases the damage dealt by Master Strike by <<1>>%.
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Very interesting.
Battlefield Command
Getting attacked while in Soresu Form reduces the active cooldown of Force Leap by <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.
Beacon of Might
Reduces the cooldown of Warding Call by <<1>> seconds, increases the damage dealt by Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash by <<2>>%, and reduces the cooldown of Riposte by <<3[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>.
Daunting Presence
Force Leap has a <<1>>% chance to finish the cooldown on Force Kick. In addition, Saber Reflect lasts <<2[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>> longer and generates a high amount of threat on all engaged enemies within 30 meters when activated.
Expeditious Protector
When your guarded target is attacked, you gain Expeditious Protector for 6 seconds, increasing your movement speed by <<1>>%.
Guard and Thrust
Reduces the cooldown of Riposte by <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>> while Saber Ward is active.
Guardianship
Challenging Call has a <<1>>% chance to protect all allies within range, excluding yourself, granting Guardianship, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage. Lasts 10 seconds.
Jedi Warden
Reduces the cooldown of Force Push by <<1>> seconds, and reduces the focus cost of Freezing Force by <<2>>.
Master Focus
Increases the damage dealt by Master Strike by <<1>>%.
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Please don't ever raid. LOL
I've been leading raids, progression raiding for a very long time. You would last about two minutes in one of my raids as you are the classic example of what not to do, and how not to do it LOL. I'm going to further guess that you've never raided in any organized fashion and are simply a troublesome pug-monkey and that very dps that everyone tends to complain about.
Your lack of knowledge and understanding would not be bad in and of itself except for the arrogance that allows you to assume this wildly distorted belief is even close to correct in any raiding situation. I could give you a full page lecture as to what you are doing wrong, and why, but I'd be wasting my time because of that very attitude that allows you to be so bad. You are not "pro" LOL. You doing it exactly wrong.
....and no, that is not how taunt works in this game. *sigh*
Yes it *is* how taunt works in this game. You are doing it exactly wrong.
In an ops, there are enrage timers for a reason. DPS are not responsible for pandering to an inexperienced tank, or a tank that refuses to taunt. Playing the game at the highest level of progression requires 100% from every class at all times. I predict your raids hitting enrage, because of your terrible misunderstanding of threat mechanics, and expecting dps to help you hold threat. This doesn't fly in nightmare ops.
I would never want to raid with you if you don't even know how taunt works. You make massive assumptions about the class dynamics in this game which is, I suspect, carried over from another game. You should take the time to learn the specifics of the game you are playing. *You* are precisely what you accuse Sydexlic of being.
Besides, assuming approximately equal gear, tank threat is superior, given equal player skill between the tank and a dps.The only thing I have issue with, is this misconception. Taking taunts out of the picture, an assassin is the only tank that is going to meet your expectation. Powertechs *may* need to taunt after their opener (a good burst should still rip it off them), and guardians must roll 2 or more taunts in order to gain a solid lead. As far as threat per second, 2 out of the 3 tank classes are *not* equal to the potential dps output of a well played, BiS sniper, mara, or pyro.
The best thing to keep in mind as a dps, is what tank classes you are playing with. A guardian is going to have significant trouble holding threat in the opening stages of any encounter where he has to kite or move a boss, or gain threat on separated ranged packs. Even a stationary tank and spank phase like writhing terror requires a pretty spot on opening burst in addition to well timed taunts for a guardian to hold it...
...What I really mean to say is, just feel bad for that guardian who's breaking his keyboard trying to hold threat for you.
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Most people will experience tanking doing level 50 flashpoints, and its unfortunate that these flashpoints contain many mechanics that make a tanks life very difficult. It can turn new players off the role pretty quickly, and attract the ire of the group for something they have little power over.
I'm talking packs of trash mobs, with multiple ranged enemies spread far apart and excessive knockback and cc mechanics (which target highest on threat, the tank). Add to this bosses with hidden threat drops.
I weep for the tanks that went into boarding party with their socks pulled up only to get raged at by the group for not being able to tank the first droid boss (which is un-tankable during target acquired phase). In contrast, the newer operations are much more tank friendly.
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The "impact" sounds your referring to tend to be more pronounced on special attacks and abilities. For example, using master strike has a pronounced aural and visual effect, which it makes it much easier to notice when one of the strikes is avoided.
The basic free attack is subdued with not much in the way of sound effects. I assume this is the make special attacks stand out more.
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Main stat = .20 damage per point, with small bonus to crit chance
Power = .23 damage per point
Long story short, use heavy power mods in mod slots, and main stat augments. Main stat is preferable in 1 to 1 cases most of the time, due to buffs and +main stat skills. The crit provided by main stat is also on a separate DR curve (it provides bonus crit chance, but not in the form of crit rating).
At level 50 the itemisation is so that the mods with higher power on them end up having a net increase of bonus damage more then the higher mainstat mods. High main stat mods waste some of the stat budget on endurance.
Main stat augments are better then power, as main stat is > power in a 1 to 1 ratio. (For those with no +main stat skill, you could make an argument for power augs)
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Some changes to the handling of the speeders would help, like adding in some acceleration, and some elevation off the ground as you accelerate. At the moment speeders hug the ground so much that every little bump is reflected in the actual motions of the speeder, making it feel like its attached to the ground. Some speeders actually touch the ground.
I think the current speed of mounts may be a conscious design decision to artificially make the worlds feel bigger. The best compromise would be to add in a "boost" feature which would give you a huge speed boost while on your speeder for a short time. Add to this some lens flare effects on the engine thrusters to signify top speed, and some cool "woosh" sounds effects.
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It is IMO until Bioware adjusts Immortal accordingly. And yes the difference between the two is more than just very small... Immortal TPS and DPS is subpar to the Hybrids (as mentioned earlier do I think its right? of course not but it is what is and I just work with the cards we're being dealt right now).
And I played Immortal just like everyone else to its fullest from day 1 to post change in what was it 1.2? Even the gurus at MMO Mechanics discredited it too, so they must all never played it right either. You sir must be the diamond in the ruff who gets it right, so my compliments to you.
I can't speak for the people at mmo mechanics, but have you actually looked at the tps of both builds? please post some logs that show the massive threat difference. The difference between both specs, as far as threat goes, is not very impressive. If your playing hybrid because of "heaps better threat" you have missed the point of the spec.
Immortal gets crushing blow, gets more threat on smash (from 2/2 decimate) and backhand (past the opener this is irrelevant.) Also possibly more threat on ravage if you put your last point into ravager.
Hybrid gets a bleed on force scream, more uptime on force scream and impale. Depending how you spec, some builds don't even get impale so then you don't have anything to compare for the absence of crushing blow.
And before anyone says it, no, crushing blow deals more threat then impale. The main draw back is its cooldown. On the other hand Impale has a shorter cooldown, but with hybrid rage constraints you don't actually take advantage of that anywhere near what you would think. Extracts from: http://www.torparse.com/search?s=gorsameth
Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1076 energy damage, causing 2799 threat.
Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1084 energy damage, causing 2819 threat.
Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1022 energy damage, causing 2658 threat.
Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1043 energy damage, causing 2713 threat.
Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1184 energy damage, causing 2369 threat.
Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1207 energy damage, causing 2415 threat.
Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1207 energy damage, causing 2415 threat.
Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1146 energy damage, causing 2292 threat.
And to just clarify my position, I'm not saying that immortal is better, its not. But as far actual net TPS there is little difference. Hybrid has more raw dps, while immortal has comparable threat due to higher threat multipliers.
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If going hybrid solves your threat issues, then you were never playing Immortal properly. The actual TPS difference between immortal and hybrid is very small. Certainly not large enough to go from rolling taunts to never having to taunt after the opener.
The hybrid is about giving up easier rage management and aoe threat for increased survivability. This is a fair trade for most, as a skilled player can work around the limitations of the spec, but hybrid is not the solution to the guardian threat issue.
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You seem to be bringing preconceived notions of tanking from some "other" games into this one.
You are acting like taunting is "bad" or means you "failed" in some way as a tank.
I come from another MMO (LOTRO) where a taunt only holds the mob and doesn't build additional threat. As a tank I had to WORK for my aggro. I get it. In that game if you taunt it means you "failed" at your job.
Taunting constantly to maintain threat is how THIS game works. The taunt DOES build threat and is a valuable skill that should be used in a rotation as opposed to regulated to "oh shoot I messed up I better taunt".
In order to hold threat without taunts in THIS game the tank will have to be doing somewhere around 1,000-1,300k DPS which just isn't going to happen.
I've tanked TFB HM (we as a guild have been 5/5 for a bit now) and I fully understand the mechanics of all the fights in this game and from all the various roles. (I raid lead and will tank, dps or heal based on group makeup)
BECAUSE you are constantly tank swapping on most all of the Bosses in TFB the tanks are able to maintain threat on DPS that are, when well geared and min/maxed correctly, pulling some really crazy numbers right now.
IF you are able to maintain threat on ANY class of tank without using taunts constantly then you need to have a nice long talk with your DPS about why they are only doing 1,200-1,400 DPS.
I can have as many as three DPS'rs in one of my Guild runs that can pull over 2K during a boss fight.
(2,400 spikes are fairly common)
Unless I do a very efficient DPS rotation constantly and using every skill in my bag o' goodies (including taunts) I just will not be able to hold threat vs. DPS pulling numbers like that.
But I somehow manage to.
And I have explained how.
Hope it helped.
I know how taunt works, and you haven't discovered some magical secret to tanking on a guardian. Taunt fluffing is a crutch for pt's and assassins, plain and simple. Does it bother you that an assassin or pt has to only taunt once at the right time to have a solid lead on threat?
I'm not saying that your solution is not viable, quite to opposite, its flat out required for guardians to get any grasp of a mobs attention, but this is not how it should be. Rolling taunts back to back is not intended design.
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When they introduced grade 61 mods in 1.2, they also went about itemising individual mods better, or at least making it possible to obtain the exact mod your after. So not only did we get a general increase in dps, we also got the ability fine tune and "BiS" dps, which simply wasn't practical with rakata itemisation. This made dps classes deal more damage not only from the increase stat budgets, but the availability of optimised mods to increase dps past a simple tier adjustment (the gap from rakata to campaign is massive for this reason).
Now on the other hand, they buffed tank threat by 50%, which means amount of threat that tanks gain from their damage was increased by 50%. However at the same time, tanks had their dps adjusted DOWN. Vanguards lost the surge bonus on stockstrike, Guardians lost their 6% damage boost from vigilance and had guardian slash damage reduced. Shadow dps was less effected, with balance changes made to bring their damage mitigation in line with the other tanks (Which now, means that they still have the best threat generation, purely because they have the best dps.)
The main point though, purely from the guardian perspective, is if you take into account the nerfs to dps, with the relative increase to damage for dps classes, I feel the 50% threat boost is not as effective at closing this gap as it was intended to be. The issue is compounded by the fact that threat scales WITH DAMAGE and guardian dps was already the lowest amongst the tanks prior to these changes. This resulted in guardians receiving a net increase in threat that was/is insufficient.
And before someone brings it up again, I can't seriously believe that rolling taunts is intended design, considering most fights require taunts at specific intervals, and some have dire consequences for the tank loosing threat for even a moment (Asation HM).
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They are nowhere near balanced from a threat-generation perspective, especially on multiple targets. Single target threat can easily be compensated for by taunts, but Juggy is the only tank AC that almost has to rely on them, whereas both PT and Sin can largely tank purely via DPS after an initial taunt or two.
They are not balanced from a resource-generation perspective either, though player skill contributes hugely to this.
Just to clarify, they absolutely have threat issues but I think they are singled out as unique snowflakes far too much. I don't think requiring player skill to overcome challenges of the rage system is a design flaw in the class. I see power-techs are plain broken because of how laughably stupid simple they are.
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Your first sentence is blatantly incorrect, but your second is correct. Guardians/Juggs are definitely lacking in some areas compared to the other tanks, but if you are a good player, you can overcome.
Also no one should be specced into Defense or Immortal at this point, the tanking tree is awful. Spec 17/22/2 for best results.
Actually all the tanks ARE remarkably well balanced. The jugg has some quality of life issues, but so does the assassin (dark ward charges, can't self heal on the move) and the powertech (lacking a third proper defensive cooldown).
Juggs are not the underdogs, I think that the relative popularity compounds the limitations of the class, and in return Juggs are left with a reputation of not being able to hold threat compared to the other two tanks. While juggs do have the lowest threat ceiling proper use of taunts negates this disadvantage, its not asking a great deal from the player, as this tactic is viable and useful on any of the tank classes.
If you think a bad player can just waltz in and tank the town on an assassin, you couldn't be more wrong. The powertech however..
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Boosting dps just for the sake of bringing dps up to powertech level is not taking in the whole picture. Dps is balanced taking into account much more then how it effects threat. A powertech lacks strong defensive cooldowns, but has solid damage and passive mitigation. The assassin has the highest dps, but most of their active ability use directly concerns survivability. Juggs do have an identity crisis in that they don't seem to have a strong design focus that the other two tanks have.
Boosting dps will impact on pvp balance more then anything. Soresu form needs to be looked at, and backhand / crushing blow need to be made more attractive as top tier abilities. But dps is not ALL that's wrong with the immortal tree, and I don't think it is the silver bullet that many in this thread assume it to be.
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Any vote system is only going to compound the current conflict, people will harass and drop out of the queues if people aren't voting to skip them. From a design standpoint, cut-scenes in HARD MODE flashpoints is beyond dumb. I love this game for its story, but HARD MODE flashpoints are encouraged by Bioware to be completed many times, and possibly the same flashpoint multiple times in the same week.
Rather then butchering the current flashpoints, they should remove the hardmode from them. Bioware made the mistake of selecting the most story / cut-scene heavy flashpoints eligible for hardmodes instead of the story light, action focused flashpoints like Hammer Station and Mandalorian Raiders. Swap these around and we could have nice fast cut-scene free flashpoints without actually removing / changing anything cut-scene related.
Once this is done, one possible solution to the bigger problem (group dialogue system) would be to revamp the social points system to reward players who choose not to skip dialogue with actual tangible rewards. I think if you choose to skip dialogue, you should have to forfeit your social points. Make the incentives attractive enough to lure the non story crowd to watch the dialogue, they may even enjoy it.
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Actually it would stop venting heat since dodged attack cant be shielded and wont vent heat. So if you avoid every attack in a fight you would vent 0 heat except for standard heat dissipation
Of course it is not going to happen in real world but still shows the idea how too high defence can stop shield from venting heat properly. But I do agree with the number you give, Im running with 17.5% defence chance and thats exactly what I want it to be.I understand how defence will bypass shield, but shield vents can only proc every 6 seconds. That in addition to naturally higher shield in ratio to defence is going to mean that it will proc pretty much on cool-down. Following the spreadsheet for optimal damage mitigation is not going to impact on your heat management at all.
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I agree with just about everything said here. To make your self optimal drop damn near all that defense... 15% is more than enough and dont bother with accuracy as someone else stated. Its nice to completely avoid an attack but when you dodge things as a PT it screws with your heat. I'm not sure about juggy's, but as far as i know NO tank uses accuracy.
Saying that defence over 15% screws up heat management is voodoo. That 60% odd shield chance you have is not going to stop venting heat once you go over some arbitrary defence threshold. The internal cooldown on shield vents effectively makes it proc on cooldown against M/R attacks.
Spreadsheets don't place any more emphasis on defence than is optimal. In high mitigation mods anywhere from 18-20% defence with a stim is where you want to be.
Of course it is not going to happen in real world but still shows the idea how too high defence can stop shield from venting heat properly. But I do agree with the number you give, Im running with 17.5% defence chance and thats exactly what I want it to be.
Mandalorian Armor
in Suggestion Box
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