Here in this fine old country called the United States of America, all citizens are gaurenteed certain rights and privelages thereof and protections as consumers in our capitalist economic system, and should these rights be denied of us we have a right to seek legal recourse wether in court or out of court.

But that's what i've been saying from the beginning, that it's not an open and shut case like everyone has kept saying it has been. Everyone has been acting like, for FOUR PAGES, that there is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM for any legal action,a nd i've been trying to say a EULA is not an unfaultering god of law and depending on how things go they can be sued and IMO they are pulling a bait and switch. I said that in my first post, i've said it since then.

I have not changed my argument once, since the VERY BEGINNING i was stating what a bait and switch is, and why one could consider this such, and then went on arguing about the devs in response to the OP, and talked about how a EULA cannot just do whatever it wants and that any and all law regarding consumer rights supercedes the EULA regardless of how vague and all encompassing companies like to make it. If a company puts a notice on a vacuum that says "May explode and kill you when turned on" it doesnt mean your family cant sue and win if you die.

Content updates and changes are expected, a complete overhaul of the payment setup and addition of a cash shop is different especially if you're in the middle of a payment plan, and should at the very least be entitled to a full refund and immediate closure of account if requested.

Ok dear trollmaster, they haven't "Always" thrown out the EULA. But that isnt my argument anyway you nitpicked a word and attacked it instead of taking the whole argument in context like the other posters have. Stop wasting space.

As far as i'm aware, the cash shop in wow isnt too extensive however, since wow doesnt have a F2P setup, correct me if i'm wrong. That's what i'm saying with TOR, if the cash shop gets too extensive and there's too much stuff on ther and too little stipend, i think you have grouds there ESPECIALLY if in the middle of a 6 month plan.

What does this have to do with anything? There's nothing in the law that says a service must exist forever and they technically arent taking away the game, just the service. As long as they offered refunds for all year/6month plans and ended subscriptions, which they did. However, there are laws on changing payment models/access to content in the middle of a subscription plan/contract. Your post has no bearing on anything.

Well what the debate is here is, There will be things in the cash shop not even subscribers get thats why you get stipend, and if there is too much in the cash shop, not enough stipen, and you are in the middle of a 6 month subscription, i think you'd have a right to at the very least, demand a refund and early cancellation of the 6 month plan, and if denied that, could go to court over it because you need to pay *more* for full access to all content and that changed in the middle of a plan you signed up for before F2P was announced.

I've had cases where in a year contract a cable company tries to up the price and a single phone call scares them away from doing it. People with 6month "contracts" so to speak with a sudden change in EULA/payment models without offer a refund could be an issue. But again, i dont think anyone will care enough to sue. When SOE released the Obi wan expansion and then did the huge gameplay switch to the NGE, SOE was about to get sued and they immediatly offered full refunds no questions asked.

Are you done trolling or do you have something useful to add to this discussion?

A contract cannot ever contradict the law, it is why contracts go to court all the time. You literally can't "sign your life away". Atleast in the US.

Like i said no they dont. A Eula and TOS cannot contradict law/consumer rights, EVER. Every time it has and its been brought up, the TOS/EULA is thrown out. Even Andryah went over it, its debateable when there's no law on the matter, and even then there's a "within reason" limit. Local, State, and federal law ALL supercede a EULA, period.

I never once said it had been done yet, but i said there is merit both in being angry about it, and in the law itself. The problem is the army of lawyers you have to go against, and i was also clarifying what a bait and switch was which this could most definitely be seen as. I also stated a EULA is not LAW, you are not bound to every single word in it and you ALWAYS have your consumer rights as per local law. Which is FACT. Maybe you should re-read my originall post because apparently reading comprehension is not your forte'.

So an argument over semantics = i'm wrong? Are you debating my arguments or are you debating me? (Ad hominem, a fools tactic)

The thing is, all a EULA can really do is restate current Law or rules of play (no shoes no shirt no service), a EULA cannot make new laws. Letting people know they will sue for copyright infringement, etc. But saying they can do whatever they want at any time is not something they can do, and a lot of times the EULA has just been thrown out unless its over an issue like copyright infringement or other pre-established law. The EULA becomes even more fragile overseas especially in regions such as asia, and companies have been having trouble pushing some rediculous TOS's over int he EU lately as well.

That's a case of copyright infringement and has just happens to fall in line with what most companies copy and paste into the EULA. They wouldnt even need the EULA to sue someone for that, simple US copyright law does that for them. Try again.

EULA's/TOS are primarily used to deal with the banning of players exploiting/etc, out of court type stuff. But every single time a game company went to court, the EULA was thrown out. Like i said, a EULA cannot contradict consumer rights or federal law or state law. Infact i recall a famous case some years ago where that happened, of course there were still issues with the army of lawyers a company can throw at you(but cases have been won). And yes, they can package and release an operation as an "Official Expansion" but that will look really bad trying to market that. And yes, subs will need to get things from the cash shop, its why they get a "stipend" of coins, and if that stipen is too small and too large a portion of content is in the cash shop, that IS most definitely grounds for a lawsuit. The problem is, will people care enough to sue or will people just leave and let the game die?

They wont add a flying mount because of the way planets are done, Find a high rock or climb high enough on buildings and you'll see the landscape is NOT fully rendered, they only do the stuff you are meant to see from ground level and from pre-defined flight paths and even from those you see a lot of missing textures or models or terrain.

EULA's cannot and have NEVER been upheld in court. You cannot have a consumer sign away their legal consumer rights as citizens of their respective countries, especially here in the US ( i dont want to speak on behalf of countries that i dont know the legalities of). The US has "Consumer rights" which cannot ever be signed away. You can have a contract that says "At any time we can raid your house and take our stuff back" but that would be thrown out in court. EULA's are simply there as a tool against those who would never bother with court, but once it goes to court EULA's lose all power. Bait and Switch is saying you are offering one thing, and giving something else. Promising something in exchange for your money, and not delivering it. Legally Bait and switch is a broad term, not just dealing with pricing. Technically speaking, if they put too much content into the cash shop and the stipend for a sub is too small, you could sue for a bait and switch, having purchased the game and subscription on the expectation of access to all content and future content updates without further purchases beyond the subscription and future official expansions and that no longer being possible. That's not even covering the actual removal of content and unfulfilled promises since beta. As Stated: HK-51 was IN GAME and FUNCTIONAL in Beta, we already had guides on it. RWZ's were pulled last minute even after heavy advertisement used to grab costumers, that is definitely fraud. Ilum is defunct now with no ETA on revival. The dev's and customer service are MIA. Over 9 months we've LESS than a handful of flashpoints and 1 warzone added. RIFT had a bigger content release during its first year, well over triple or even quadrouple the content released in the same timeframe.

Sometimes it bottoms out at 0 though, the problem SWTOR has is a lack of replayability, there really is no replayable endgame, you need something less grindy than some raids and flashpoints. This game lacks a social atmosphere, minigames, and other non-questing/raiding activities to do. Not even any open world PVP, just a couple of boxes to fight in. Now its going free to play, so we have lockboxes with cashshop keys and random cash shop items to look forward to with all development of what little devs are left going towards cash shop implementation and then items. Oh....joy...

It wasnt just that, but that played a big part, it had a huge lack of content to begin with, part of the problem was they pumped it out in less than a year, Cryptic was trying to sell to atari a "Fire and forget" method of development where they use the same engine for everything pumping out MMO's every year and it flopped horribly which is why cryptic ended up with 3 devs, a salad bar and lots of debt until it got bought up by an asian cash shop company.

Exactly what i was saying, they try to keep you hooked with the potential grind as an "in game" method to get things, but you really cant get everything, and lockboxes are RANDOM, you could get something you dont want or already have. STO really, really, REAAAALLY milks it like you would not believe. Almost ALL NEW CONTENT for STO is either in lockboxes or in the cash shop in some form, and even though subscribers get a stipend, since a lot of that stuff is in lockboxes you may well end up wasting said stipend "gambling" for cash shop items. Welcome to the modern MMO!

I was there when it went FTP, and...WOW...For those wondering, almost every item, even non cashshop loot is in lockboxes. Most of what you loot is lockboxes, and you need to buy keys to unlock those lockboxes, which only have a small chance of actually giving you something you want or dont already have. Sure, you can grind for things and thats how they keep you hooked, but its a looooong grind and you're blasted by actual ads for cash shop items and lockboxes the entire time, the launcher is one giant cash shop ad i kid you not. EA will top that, this is EAWare we're talking about. Our ships are going to have streaming ads on viewscreens of the cashshop, and the droid will be a cash shop vendor.

I have seen this...with STO...but atleast STO invented a way where you can earn ALL cash shop items and even cash shop points through ingame activities, similar to how if you are rich in EVE you can play totally for free forever. That doesnt mean i like it though...i'm willing to bet, given this is EA we are talking about, that most all cash shop items have no in-game way to attain, and they'll start off as pure cosmetic, but slowly grow in importance. First armor and pets, then ships and ship customizations, then companions, then tons more cool stuff BUT, only available through "Lockboxes" which have a random chance to be anything from HK-47 to a green lightsaber, and you need to buy the key to unlock the lockboxes and lockboxes are random drops, or you can buy both a lockbox and a key from the cashshop... Oh my...we're doomed..

He was arguing against the colorization of *other* peoples films. films made by people who were dead or in retirement homes or no longer working on their property by that point. He was not arguing against people working or altering or updating their own intellectual property. He was trying to protect filmmakers from big corporations like he always has, the reason he has so much control over star wars was that he hated corporations taking over the work and doing whatever they wanted with someone elses creation.