In this game? Pretty much. This isn't some ultradifficult MMO. Plus, my response in terms of the time-spent was to another poster who said people couldn't possibly have tried a lot of different strats in 2 hours. We spent 4 hours on it which was ample time to try some really quirky stuff.

Honorable enough - what does this even mean? We killed a boss in our current gear before other people did, end of story. When I reported the kill earlier I clearly stated what we did and even said you can count at a discount or not count at all. The OP counted, and now I'm just defending from the people that are butthurt (folks who disagree in a respectable manner are fine in my book).

I stated this exactly when the kill was reported if you go back a few pages, as well as a couple times thereafter.

Someone has to start the trend, then. There were also definitely guilds that swapped to HM for tanks then back to Nightmare. It isn't some grand scheme or something that is against the "community rules" (whatever those are). What happens when come Monday no one has killed it yet and it gets nerfed on Tuesday? What if it never gets nerfed and we have to continue to swap to HM to farm gear from the rest of the instance as well as NiM S&V when it comes out? We made a call last night to move on because we didn't see it being changed this week (and I am very confident it will be). No other raiding community that I've participated in (WoW, Rift, EQ) got upset when things like this occurred.

We spent 4 hours on it, and I saw streams were guilds were in there for 7+ hours.

Confused why you think it's linear here but not linear into other MMOs?

Looking at the original document, looks like the OP gave us points for Operator. EDIT: As I stated earlier, I am fine with giving guilds discounted points until the skipped encounter is killed.

Choice 1 would be something WoW has had for the last several years, but people in the progression thread seem to think it's some heinous thing to do

Maybe that's where we disagree in our philosophies. Having been apart of as many firsts as I have in the raiding community, I say use whatever you have at your disposal to your advantage (short of blatant exploits). You being able to field 5-6 raids is no different, in my mind, than a guild being able to log on at 11 AM to clear content first versus the guild that had to wait for people to get home. Use the tools that you have.

I lol'd at the Carl Lewis part.

I wish SWTOR had an armory or an API we could pull from. I've played since launch and during that time there have been probably 9-12 websites/forum threads to track progression. Each fails because a) not everyone cares to post and b) it isn't perfect because each thread has different rules to what they consider "legit". A proper "kill order", to me, is pretty inane. I've never dealt that way in any MMO, dating back to bosskillers.com for WoW in 2006. If that's how this thread wants to run it, fine, but we'll probably stop participating and take comfort in the fact knowing we're still killing bosses and getting loot in a completely acceptable manner. At the end of the day the 2 hour titles are > all this, anyway. OP, feel free to comment on what you want to do since it's your progression thread.

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier15_25 Just a quick link. Bottom left has the kill count for all the bosses currently - notice that the 7th and 9th bosses in that instance have LESS kills than the 8th, 10th, and 11th. Its been around for years, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why people are so upset here. WoWProgress gives points for those that skipped, but at a discount, and doesn't provide the full points until the boss prior (the one that was skipped) is killed. That's a great system that has worked for that website for years.

Is this your first MMO? Because hard-core progression raiding in the biggest MMO on the planet (WoW) has worked this way for years. Just this last tier several guilds skipped Durumu to farm gear on the next 3 bosses and he actually died a couple weeks after, despite being earlier in the instance. That community doesn't bat an eye. Yet here we have people screaming bloody murder, hilarious.

So if no body kills DG this week, are you guys to swap to HM then do the rest Nightmare or keep banging your heads against the encounter? If you do what we did on a Monday instead of yesterday because we didn't want to waste our time, are we still "cheaters"? This is a pretty petty argument. Where does it say progression is killing bosses in order? Does anyone remember Naxxramas 40 man? Different guilds went different routes and claimed firsts all the same. Skipping bosses has been in MMOs since WoW 2006, end of story. If you don't want to count it now, fine. But come Monday if everyone does what we did, then get off your high horse. It's a game, we killed a boss first, and we're farming loot THAT WE HAVE LEGITIMATE ACCESS TO in order to improve our raiding roster. This isn't some sort of exploit, some of you guys are extremely petty.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but let's not forget WoW for several tiers had top-end guilds Normal Mode'ing a boss here or there to farm gear from other bosses. I agree 100% that having to do that is NOT ideal and is on the dev's for screwing up a certain encounter, but it has happened before. Let's hope BioWare isn't trying to do their best Blizzard impression, though.

Death and Taxes dtguilds.com Prophecy of the Five USA - East Operator 9 Nightmare http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/227810/module_gallery/original/1281672.jpg We killed HM DG and moved on with our lives. Fight is tuned well, wiped to Kephess @ 4% so both fights aren't throwing insane enrage timers at you but have a couple new mechanics. If you want to count at discounted points that's fine (a la wowprogress.com), or not count it at all. Good luck to everyone who decides to keep trying DG this week.

Yes, we did. After 4 hours on DG and several 30-40% wipes on Kelsara we called the raid this morning and came back tonight. Did HM DG, 4 shot NiM Operator and best attempt on Kephess was 4%, should kill it tomorrow. Op9 and Kephess are definitely tuned well, we enjoyed those fights.

Multiple 16 mans wiping at the same point.

I can completely appreciate what you're saying here, but there is a "but" coming from me. I stated this earlier, but I consider myself a very hard core raider. in WoW, with DnT, I have been apart of 14 US first and 15 World first kills in an MMO much more difficult and with more complex encounters than SWTOR. In order to achieve that many firsts I've participated in some RIDICULOUS strategies and attempts, a lot of out of the box thinking to achieve kills. For 4 hours today we wiped at ~40% consistently. Tried different kill orders, tried ignoring adds, tried dragging mobs through Doom and Red Circle. Nothing. There is no mechanic we are missing. There is just a super short enrage timer that is not currently reasonable (can't speak for 16m this was all 8m). I am all for making things more difficult (the healing requirement for this fight was upped from PTS which forces everyone to take better care of themselves). However, your point about Yogg-0 or "unkillable" bosses then being killed in WoW doesn't compare. in WoW there were more means of getting better than your current gear to kill bosses - whether those were Badges, Valor Points, or farming the bosses earlier in the instance. This is the 2nd boss in the instance, we are already BiS, and cannot get better gear aside from Writhering Horror. This fight is overtuned, end of story. I'll eat my crow if someone kills it pre-nerf, but I sincerely doubt anyone will. Maybe some crazy euros.

Death and Taxes dtguilds.com Prophecy of the Five USA http://i.imgur.com/YXt9D2f.jpg

Speaking from someone who has over a dozen World and US firsts in WoW, this fight is not possible right now. I have beat my head against a wall, I've worked on bosses for weeks to get firsts, and I've done ridiculous strats to think outside the box. This fight right now is NOT possible given the current enrage timer. It isn't like we can get better gear, we're all BiS in full 72 with optimal augments and relics. KeyboardNinja, go in there, see it for yourself, and I promise you no one will kill this fight in its current iteration.

Add 1 minute to the enrage timer.

http://i.imgur.com/YXt9D2f.jpg 4:54 writhering horror according to your clock. Lol dread guards.

BioWare - If you delay a patch to buff an operation/fix bugs, please ensure that the fights are actually tuned. With a raid comp of 2 Marauders, 1 Merc, 1 Sniper (all pulling 2400-2600 DPS), we are hitting a hard enrage on Kelsara around ~40% HP. Our guild has cleared NiM TFB on PTS, cleared all your HM raids the week upon release, and are fully capable players. The fights damage/healing requirements/etc are fine, but the ENRAGE TIMER is impossible with our current gear (full Underworld). I appreciate making the encounters more difficult, but you need to tune these fights. Healers would have to pull 1.7k DPS in order to beat the current enrage timer, but that's impossible given the healing requirements on this fight. Below please watch a VOD of what I am referring to: http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa/c/2415629

BioWare - If you delay a patch to buff an operation/fix bugs, please ensure that the fights are actually tuned. With a raid comp of 2 Marauders, 1 Merc, 1 Sniper (all pulling 2400-2600 DPS), we are hitting a hard enrage on Kelsara around ~40% HP. Our guild has cleared NiM TFB on PTS, cleared all your HM raids the week upon release, and are fully capable players. The fights damage/healing requirements/etc are fine, but the ENRAGE TIMER is impossible with our current gear (full Underworld). I appreciate making the encounters more difficult, but you need to tune these fights. Healers would have to pull 1.7k DPS in order to beat the current enrage timer, but that's impossible given the healing requirements on this fight. Below please watch a VOD of what I am referring to: http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa/c/2415629