I'm still struggling to understand what the "progression" mentality is, and where everyone is getting the "linear progression only" from. It was not stated in the OP and I've never encountered an MMO where this was expected and penalized for not being adhered to. I say give us discounted points for what we kill after DG, fine, but to say we don't deserve to kill the bosses after DG is ludicrous. We still have to pull the encounters, execute, and kill them.

I watched 3 streams yesterday of 16 man raids and each got to Kelsara anywhere from 3.5 to 4.5 minutes and wiped to adds. It doesn't seem to be an enrage issue for 16 man like it is for 8 man, but a mechanic issue.

We concluded that the person who said 2300 DPS is required is a moron and didn't take into account the NiM mechanics. EDIT: On top of blatantly making up numbers and percentages. You should read countpopulea's replies, they are pretty informative earlier on.

Maybe on the first page I should have edited it to say "8-man". Watching some 16-man streams, guilds are getting to Kelsara over 1.5 minutes faster than 8 man guilds are. It wouldn't be the first time that 16 man and 8 man Enrage timers were swapped - time will tell if it's addressed or working as intended.

Appreciate the reply, Iggy. If you would like to chat you can find me Empire side, Pot5, on Enkay - same name on Enjin as I see both our guilds use that website. Feel free to reach out because I have a couple ideas that are fair to the raiding community (and doesn't elevate us).

Says you and about 5 other people in this thread over and over. It doesn't even say that in the OP, or the HM S&V thread OP either. Relax, you're getting extremely worked up over nothing. For the 100th time, don't count it, count it, give us discounted points WE DO NOT CARE. Fact of the matter is we felt DG was broken, skipped it, and killed the next boss with less loot than we would have had if we were able to kill DG. You can throw however many asterisk or qualifiers on it as you need to to justify your position. To quote Michelle Tanner, take a chill pill, dude.

For what it's worth, Dom has always had nice things to say about you. He swings both ways if you're also into that sort of thing (it's the 21st century, grow up prudes).

Speaking for us, the only thing we "care" about is the title. Not too concerned about anything else. EDIT: To be clear, getting the title killing at bosses on NiM. We've never gotten a title in any of the previous raids by doing any HM encounters.

In my original post of our kill in this thread I said I think the kill should be counted at DISCOUNTED POINTS (as well as any boss killed after a boss that was done on HM)

Because our agenda wasn't to be OMG FIRST like I stated above. Our streams have full voice chat on them, and you can hear our discussion regarding wanting to move on to see if the entire instance was broken or if it was just DG about 4 hours into the raid. We didn't even rush to do it, we took off the rest of the afternoon, came back at normal raid time (8:30 EST), tried some more then made the switch.

It's cheating in SWTOR, but not cheating in WoW? According to who, you? The devs? The "community" (aka the same 15 people that have been posting in this thread, including me)?

They are all at the cantina event, duh!

I meant move on from the discussion, not move on to the next boss.

Let's just agree that DG is a ****** of a fight right now and move on. I dislike no one in this thread, I'm sure you're all stand up human beings. Kumbaya, mother f*ckers

Thanks for speaking for everybody else. Fact is, we made a judgment call to not waste time, moved on with our lives and killed the further bosses in worse gear than we would have had if DG wasn't broken. Don't worry, I'm sure when we're one of the first guilds to get "from Beyond" everyone will point to the extra boot and chest piece as the deciding factor and it won't count.

I agree that it is the same few people posting. Heck, I'm probably responsible for 25 replies in this thread. We stream with vent/mumble, you can hear EVERYTHING we say and discuss, for better or worse. I can say with 100% conviction that when we skipped DG it wasn't to be OMG FIRST LOLOLOL, it was to see if the other fights were tuned properly or if they were impossible as well. That was the #1 motivation. If we skipped DG and found out Operator or Kephess were impossible, we'd be thanked for finding out and people would be in even more of an uproar.

We didn't care about killing the 3rd or 4th boss in that instance first - remove the points if you want, it doesn't matter. This thread doesn't even capture every raiding guild on the scene (but thank you to Iggy for putting it together). What I want to know is, what will people do come Monday night if DG isn't killed? The way I see it is, you either 1) miss out on loot and learning new mechanics for the next couple fights (there are new mechanics, it isn't the same as PTS) or 2) you continue to not kill DG until it is nerfed. Those are, as far as I see it, the 2 options. Pick for yourselves, but Option 3 "Kill DGs in its current form" is not possible, in my opinion, without farming gear from the rest of the instance (and maybe not even then).

Just FYI, every raid (there have been 5-6) in the newest expack of WoW has been linear, with the world's best guilds skipping certain bosses to move on. We can drop the comparison, but your point is incorrect.

If we killed the boss first, we killed the boss first. I don't agree with this whole "linear" progression idea. If we kill TFB tonight then it was NOT a full clear, I agree 100%. But the bosses that we downed, we still downed, and if anything were more difficult because we didn't receive our beloved relics from DG.

When we were in there last night, Kelsara was also AOE draining health from everyone within proximity for about ~1000hp/second according to our combat logs (Vitality Something, can't remember the exact name). If this is a HM mechanic as well I never noticed it since it was so minimal, but we could feel the difference on NiM. It was manageable but still a pain.

I want someone to explain to me why skipping bosses is okay in one community - that is much larger and more active than SWTOR - but not okay in another?

I'm pretty sure we got World 3rd Warstalker, so I guess we have fun when we progress? A majority of DnT is made up of WoW raiders - raiders that have several US and World firsts in an MMO far, FAR more competitive than SWTOR. In that game it isn't looked down upon to skip a boss to farm later gear in order to kill the previous boss. Period. You can cry about it all you want, that's fine. But you don't hold a candle to our caliber player..

Dom voiced his opinion but majority ruled and we moved on with our lives. Last time I'll say it and I'm out until we kill Kephess tonight, I stated with my post that contained the SS of Operator what we did and that it could be counted however the OP saw fit.

Not sure but 16 man raid DPS requirements have always been much more forgiving than 8 man. Heard grumbles from people thinking that the enrage timers for 8 man and 16 man may have been swapped - it wouldn't be the first time it has happened.

Can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not, internet sarcasm is usually lost on me. I can only hope you aren't serious about abusing a mechanic - a mechanic that is also in other MMOs and is often utilized (and not just WoW).