Oh I'm certainly NOT saying I need MORE instances, and MORE raids, and MORE daily quests giving you some collectible token you need to save to buy a piece of armor. I have no issues with quantity. TOR has at least as much end game junk going as you would expect from a newly released MMO. If we got all objective here, I wouldn't have an issue with quality either; it is a very well made 1:1 clone of WoW's end game and as such, it is very good and functional stuff really. Problem I have has to do with it being that 1:1 clone. Those very familar/bored with WoW's end game get tired of TOR's version VERY quickly.

Yeah most people paying sub based MMO do get kinda..bummed if 50 feels too samey, or much like end of the journey.

Critters. CRITTERS. Really, Morthalla? You miss critters badly enough to make them 3rd on your list?! Haha. Luckily Vanilla WoW did NOT have music all the time. It would have been a terrible experience. MMORPGs and some continuous, neverending stream of musical score would be pretty depressing combination. Everybody would be sick of the score before trial runs out..regardless of quality of the music. (Exception that makes the rule: Eve Online. Awesome,calming ambinent space music, and several hours of it. ) Undeniably WoW has always had an awesome score though. Loads of excellent atmospheric semi ambinence. Bliz was also very tastefull when it comes to how often the said tracks were to play. Only Stormwind was bit of a fail in this regard. TOR on the other han has virtually no memorable music at all, other than those select very few moments we hear something by John Williams. Vanilla WoW offered way more lively world as a whole. No question about it. You were always bound to run into your friends and enemies while doing your thing. In TOR, I lvld to 50 in one of the busiest PvP servers EU has. I found SOME PvP when I went looking for it.. but God knows it was never easy. Perhaps grand total of 10 encounters against enemy players between lvls 1 and 50. Some PvP server, haha. In TOR, nobody EVER meets player of the opposing faction in a situation where both are just questing, or travelling, or doing their thing.It is always the case of other party having gone out their way to look for trouble. This is one of the factors that makes TOR feel a bit stale..and dead when it is in fact far from either.

double post sorry

Eve Online has much of that going too. And(from what I have heard of) so did Warhammer Online, Lineage and some..Chamelot game or another. Significant portion (if not majority) of people interested in experiencing content@lvl cap in TOR are very familar with quite identical content available in some other popular MMO. (Read: WoW.) Meanwhile, very few people in TOR have relevant amounts of experience from an MMO with dynamic wPvP going. ->It would be a fresh, unseen feature for vast majority of community.

When it comes to making world pvp more fresh and dynamic, I've been thinking of a mechanic that would give guilds and players arch nemesis or rivals to fight against. I'd like to see guilds being able to form alliances. (playercap of an alliance could be..say, 100 accounts)Have big enough guild? Then form an alliance all by yourselves. Give these alliances an enemy; similar pile of people from opposing faction, thisly forming uhm.." fighting pairs" Give each of the happy couples a planet to fight over. I don't speak of some 30 min Warzone-ish event or pointless zerg of Illum, but something very permanent, slow and dynamic. Give these people an actual war to participate. Borders, scouting, destroying outposts, invading territory, losing territory.. so forth. Reward people and guilds taking a part in this with epics and fame.

I do really think taking elements from Sandboxes would be the way to go. Most people have never tried a sandbox MMO. Even less have tried ne that is functional! Some marriage of sandbox and amusement park could well make them scarred WoW vets less prone to get tired of TOR. Bioware spend significant part of dev time going " Ok..this is what WoW did. It brought them 12 million players. Time to do some cloning" IMO It'd really make a very cool formula if they now turned 180 degrees and went in opposing direction, bring in stuff WoW either doesn't do at all or does poorly. Dynamic content. Some way for players and guilds to carve their mark and/or gain influence within world in fashion game supports and recognizes. Housing(Own ship is a step to this direction for sure) and guild housing prolly makes easiest, most obvious example. Functional, active and entertaining world PvP that gives players feeling they are figting for something that actually matters.

Agreed.. In perfectr world, BW stops emulating Blizzard's WoW and looks in direction of SWG, Eve Online and other sandboxes.

I agree with much in your post but but! When it comes to end game, Azeroth hasn't really evolved anywhere in a good while now. That is part of TOR's issue too. Basic structure of end game in WoW has been more or less exactly what it is today for at least 5 years. People are tired of it. Only real change I can think of from top of my head has to do with accessibility. (As in, Bliz assumes all casual players are one armed ADHD kids who die IRL if the game they play actually challenges them in any way ever)

This thread is about end game, so go /threading in threads were your sig isn't off topic. I like TOR pretty much and want to like it much more. This is why I'm pretty eager to be proven wrong here, " shown the light" so to speak. With that in mind, it is mildly depressing al replies I'm getting consist of /threads and "IBLs" and " dont like it, geeet out" type of drivel:l Would be nice if my points were easier to argue against really!

Yet it is often used as an example in countless threads for countless reasons. Why?`because it is a language more or less all wil understand. Your point is about as valid as " pro tip English not first language out there speak Latin, it more OG?" would have been. You could always use Ultima Online or SWG or Ashenron's Call or whatever as an example, but it would mean litle to nothing for vast majority. Use something in WoW, and like half of the people reading these forums know exactly what the guy doing the comparsion is saying.

Why do you think criticism and feedback exists and is often both welcomed and expected?

No, it was specificially stated it got locked due to unspecified and generalized comparsions and lack of suggestions. I made my comparsions very specified and added suggestions. How is my post unconstructive? Mods and admins of various larger online communities may not have many things in common. I wager one of the few is that they all dislike the !!IBL!! lock inc haha! " deputy sheriff type of posting.

My original thread got locked due to "Unspecified copmparsions between two games" In cosy TLDR (ok it isnt that TL;DR anymore!) fashion, I adjusted my comparsions every bit as specified as I possibly can. - - - I present you a question! Is it end game of TOR or WoW I speak of here? Any combination of questing, dungeons and PvP took you to max. lvl! Congratulations! Here is your schedule for future: Grind repeatable daily quest chains for tokens you use to buy gear and various vanity items. Spend a little time gearing up in max. lvl normal dungeons, then move to hard modes of the said dungeons. While doing so you keep getting various tokens you can use to buy better gear and accessories. Soon enough you are geared enough for raiding! Normal modes are pretty easy and accessible. Hard mode requires more from you and your guild. More effort, better gear, better tactics. Max. lvl PvP is it's own seperate, isolated entity disconnected from rest of the end game. You grind Warzones for reputation and a currency. You can use this curreny to buy PvP gear. It is a rough start and takes a while til you begin to feel remotely competitive. Better gear you have, less painful it is to grind for more gear. You can also acquire PvP items via a zone dedicated for world PvP. It suffers from balance issues and lag. Actual rewards in no way differ from stuff you get through grind in War Zones. A mechanism is in place to ensure most of the PvE gear doesn't make good PvP gear and vice versa. Even on PvP server, there is nothing in game mechanics that would encourage or suppoort any larger scale World PvP outside one or two zones specially dedicated for it. - - - Now, it has been clear TOR is an MMO of "WoW generation" for a very long time. Devs made this much clear pretty early on temselves. With this in mind, I didn't expect to experience some revolution upon dinging 50. However, it greatly bothers me how typical, average day of typical, average lvl 50 char is more or less identical in both ToR and WoW. I didn't expect a revolution but I did ding 50 hoping and believing TOR's lvl cap would have even a hint of it's own, unique flavor. It does not. TOR's "Gzs on lvl cap! This is how we want you to spend your time now: )"-structure looks like a 1:1 copy of what WoW has to offer. Seriously, it is impossible to create lvl cap experience that would remind more of WoW. Both are amusement park MMORPGs so heaptons of similarities are to be expected.Yet I really dared to hope more flavor of it's own from TOR. Did I miss the memo suggesting the experience at lvl cap in two different MMORPGs should differ less from one another than two multiplayer oriented FPS games differ from one another? It would be really nice to see some well chosen, very determined steps away from this WoW mold in future. Based on how fast Bliz lost subs in middle of Cata's run, It is looking pretty clear people are getting tired of WoW's concept for end game. With this in mind, why on earth should you make a 1:1 copy it? Rather expose and abuse WoW's weaknesses by offering something that feels new and/or different.

Not 1st time I activate my Eve acc:p Six hours old character flying Rifter can solve small sclae fleet vs fleet battles.. Well, at least that is MUCH more likely than seeing lvl 10 in TOR/WoW/ETC doing anything remotely remarkable. Undeniably Eve is something VERY DIFFERENT. So different it takes you few light years away from amusement park routines and comfort zones where you think of stuff like " end game" and " gearing up" and " raid guild" Generally speaking that's what Sand Box MMOs undeniably have over Amusement Parks. They don't motivate you with end game but rather encourage to carve your own footprint in world/community. ...But yeah, ofc most things that exite me so much about sandbox concept right now turns terribly boring in few months/years. Then it's back to TOR or WoW:l Such depressing cycle:p

Neither of these helps:mad: Burned out sounds pretty accurate though yas. Initially I kinda thought I wouldn't be, haven't really been knee deep in WoW's end game in years. It should be long enough " cooldown"!

With heavily instanced amusement parks,one is pretty much trapped yeah. They all are essentually the same game. Ever since Ever Quest(HAHALOL!)the genre has been void of innovation. That's why I'm off to Sandboxes. I guess it was foolish of me to buy TOR and assume I wouldn't be bored to death quickly enough. WoW and it's clones are ultimately so similar it is impossible to get bored with only one of them..rather than the entire pile.

Been lvl 50 for some 10 days now. Have yet to see any end game content that wouldn't be a carbon copy of something WoW has been doing for half a decade. This is mildly depressing. Of course, I've long been well aware of TOR borrowing heavily from same amusement parks for masses - mold WoW uses. With this is in mind, I didn't ding 50 expecting to be revolutionalized! Still..I thought there would be little something. I expected small, tiny fractions of innovation and BW's own flawor that would have at least made me feel like I'm not playing WoW. This is not the case. Mechanics and " this is how we want you to spend your time now"- structures are all a 1:1 copy of what WoW has to offer. Seriously. It is impossible to create lvl cap experience that would remind more of WoW. BW hasn't even tried to create end game content that looks like..well, their own creation. Instead, they just copied WoW's lvl cap experience as accurately as humanly possible. Surely this is a massive risk to take.. People are sick and tired of WoW. I'd say it is impossible to be sick and tired of WoW's end game and enjoy TOR's copy of it. I'm off to Eve Online.

Finished Inquisitor storyline. 4/10 overall. Really improves towards end of C3 but it is too little too late. First two chapters remind me of first action cRPGs of early 90's/late 80's. Sith Warrior: Starting C2 now, 8.5/10 Agent in middle of C1, 7/10

Can confirm this is not the case at all. It should be, it would make lot of sense. It is not. Some 45 mins back we won a game where Reps got to 2nd set of doors really quickly and stalled there. When it was us (Imp) attacking, we made it there when clock had something like 45 secs left. .and we (Imp) won.

You know, I bet this actually happens tons in sincere fashion. Seriusly, I swear it's BW trolling people. No other function causes as much..harm to your efforts mid combat if activated by mistake. Yet, they just HAVE to keep it bound on one of the best buttons around WASD, when it comes to reach. I hope they'd at least do it properly and insert Trollface.JPG as bcground image of the GM ticket screen.

Yet another patch out without BW adressing as obvious and easy to fix flaw as this. There are at least 4 easy-to-reach buttons around WASD that can NOT be rebind for some incomprehensible reason. Why is this not fixed yet?

It is ridiculous it takes first actual content patch to fix something this obvious and important. .

Particular issue being addressed with regards to Warzone PvP: Hutball and Voidstar both suck arse. Possible solution to issues mentioned above Remove Hutball and Voidstar from game. Having one good BG is better than having one good, two terrible BGs. Particular issue being addressed with regards to Warzone PvP: Now I can't be sure of this, but I am slightly inclined to daresay it could well possibly be bit of a drag and mayhaps even @#%¤ING RIDICULOUS HOW IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A FUN PVP ENCOUNTER IN THIS GAME BEFORE LVL 25 ...Come 25, you at least are on Tatooine, and have a theoretical change of actually finding an enemy player roughly of your lvl. Assuming you are on a populated server, it might not take much over 45 minutes to find one. Warzones are about lvl 50s clashing with pre-50 scrubs running amock at their feet, dying left and right. Once 50s get their own bracket, Low lvl warzones will be about 40s clashing with pre-40 scrubs running amock at their feet, dying left and right. I have no idea how it is possible to pour so much money and time to an MMO, and still @#%¤ PvP up this badly.

Here is the short feature list detailing what the next content patch could be like. SWTOR 1.1 - The meaningfull and fun PvP Strikes back. * Through series of cunning, innovative new never-before-seen-in-an-MMO mechanics, it is now actually possible to have a PvP encounter that makes some degree of sense before you ding 50. * Wellp, since we dropped Hutball and Voidstar, we are now down to only one BG. However, we now have no BGs that suck terribly. I can't believe they STILL HAVNEN'T OPENED ANY BRACKETS FFS. It's super awesome trying to learn the ropes of PvP as a lvl 20 when all you get is Hutball game after another, against a flock of lvl 50 Sorcs who destroy you in few seconds. Well, atleast I have World PvP..Oh wait this game barely has any, nm.