the original post I made to open this thread was using things similar build as the 3 that you listed. Normal EV is a run through. The last spec I provided was geared towards HM + content. Try HH on nightmare. Most of the content is 2 tank able, but you will need that extra points to the immortal tree to increase your chances of surviving. Most of the content out atm, out gears most tanks, due to continually dropping "cunning" pieces of gear. Most content is out gearing our dps. In this case its vital to have tank 2 on stand by. Most of the content in HM and Nightmare are made for maximizing your groups dps output, so having an OT in most 8m content is unnecessary. Through further testing and working with our 2 healer comp in our 8m groups, you need to be as tanking as you can be. On paper, and when you have the gear to fully support your defensive "downgrade". More points in the immortal tree is needed to make yourself a viable tank, that isn't tremendously reliant on only healers for help, (which in a awkward statement to make seeing how we are....tanks) All specs I've provided were mainly geared towards MT on hardest content. Still sticking with my guns and saying. 25/16/0 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGMudrozZhGRMM0z.1 Takes the cake. ROGER THAT ONE

I have a similar post on the jugg forums, spec is 25/16/0, give it a look, use it, and it works

for pvp and pve, I use my tanking gear, it is viable for both. Most of your non spec mitigation, is that gear, without the Defence/shield gear, your spec wont support you enough to be decent. Keep in mind, I have basically full rakata gear, be using both specs work. My rotation.... with the 25/16/0 for pulling.... Saber throw > charge > enrage > backhand > force scream > smash Keep smash on CD, keep enrage on CD, Keep backhand on CD. Sunders and assault for rage build. dump rage as you seen fit THE MOST IMPORTANT: HOLD ONTO YOUR TAUNTS, Until the boss "possibly" breaks aggro I play with gents that are full rakata with perfect rotations, Within the first 15-20 seconds of the encounter, you can count on someone pulling agro, but that is a good thing, because think of taunt as one of your "high threat" spells like backhand. If used correctly, it basically will fixate your target to you. Mitigation. From a realistic point of view, Us as juggernauts, or gaurdians. (jugg here) have more mitigation that other tanks (powertech/assassin) I personally notice in my raids, we use a powertech as OT, my two healers can tell that the difference between our tanking ability and how much less dmg I take over a power is substantial. will gladly supply rotation info for my dps tank spec.

for dmg. go fury. you will get beat down, but you will be able to beat them down. for tank. you will have a ton of CD's at your disposal, and you will be able to "move" the ball better than any class in the game. I pvp as a tank, you wont be able to dish out a ton of dmg, but you will be able to outlast most 1v1 matches, you will need to identify the valuable targets, and hit em, stun lock, force push, etc. once people on your server know your name, you will get invited constantly to pvp teams.

I prefer the 25/16/0 build. All in all, both specs will work. The first posted spec is more of a pvp, high burst dmg with the ability to not have any problem with threat in dungeons. The second is more of a MT for ops groups. Slightly more mitigation. I began the thread to share a few specs that were on the table for me. advice from a beated tank haha.

Yep its viable, tested the 2nd spec a bit more, and im sold. Rage generation isnt my problem, so going the 3 points into the last teir didnt really help me. Backhand is a good initial aggro pick up, the problem is we have only 1 spell which states "Does high amount of threat" which makes it a necessity to find other routes to promote your threat gain and hold. The spec offers it. and the no charge for smash is ideal. seeing how it can cost 4 rage, if you dont spec into the immortal tree. Free tank spells are good. The last point in the immortal tree....its basically a way to get your stacks up on the target, i found it not worthy of the points spent to unlock it. Besides you sunders should be up on the target from constant spam anyway. Its money. Its difficult enough to keep aggro off guildies that put out high threat dmg, like BH or sorcs. But with proper use of a taunt, you will be fine. If backhand had a lower cd, by lets say half. it would be right on par, and probably make our tanking game a little tighter. Pimps up

This spec is good for HM content, yes you do forfeit some of your defences, but aggro isnt an issue, Cleared NM and HM hutt hospitality last night with that spec, not an issue at all with threat, the bosses in the instance hit hard, but its to be expected with new content and non content superior gear. Im in a good mood, so I created a spec that will cover your defences, and allow you to snag some fury point. 25/16/0 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGMudrozZhGRMM0z.1 I have used this spec, The bottom line is that the immortal tree , has most of its worth while abilities in the lower part of the tree, which can usually be covered in 14-17 points. if you go high into the tree...... 4% shield chance = we have a little chance for that shield to pop usually around 26% +, not to mention that is when we need our absorption value to come into play, which most starter gear has defence over shield rating. 4% internal & elemental dmg = we start with a base internal/ elemental mitigation, this is a bit higher with the sorc buff, but its not huge in our mitigation, so if a boss uses it, your going to get hit hard, just expect it. shield for moderation dmg from force scream shield proc = usually will get hit off of you in 1 hit with hm/nm content, so its not really helping anything, moderate dmg = undisclosed, so its could be 1k+ dmg shield, but with bosses hitting you for 1-3k a hit, its not going to matter as much. If your healers can not compensate for the dmg lost by going the previous posted spec, then get better healers, we use 2 sorcs as our healers. You will utilize the retaliation when its available. Your main deal is to hold threat, and the spec does that. I would definitely recommend both of these specs. It isnt the ability to become completely undamaged, which is kind of hard to do in the first place. Its to hold threat and buy your raid group time to kill a boss. same principles apply to healers. Utilizing your CD's and relic's at the right time to ensure that your stay alive is what matters here, Even if you are 100% immortal jugg. "ahh Threat? I got it.", "ahh ton of dmg time, CD popped, Im on it" Roger that

I noticed when i was leveling, use vette, and make sure to gear her up. This goes back to the riddle..... "I dont have to outrun the bear, just outrun you" If you have the dps pet to aid in your combat, the less time you have to be in combat, and usually from the immortal tree, you have several CD at your call to sustain you from death. Quinn does more healing than actually dps, so if you can take the hits, which you can... Your pet will do the dirty work for you. Cheers

I read a post on the forums a few days ago about a dps tanking spec. Tested last night on 5/5 NM EV, 1/1 Bonethrasher, 4/5 HM EV, and it works. I noticed it is viable in several ways without making the tank not a waste of a dps spot. Ive noticed by using a heavy immortal tree that I was still having some minor threat issues, but none that couldnt be fixed with taunts. 1st off, You goal as a jugg tank at the moment, is the grab and hold aggro on Champion, and Elite mobs, and strong if none of the others are in the pull. thats life. The spec I have been using is 14/27/0 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMG0uZhGRMRhddM.1 When you use your impale followed with force scream, Both which apply a dot effect, and both hit 1500+. you will not only be causing a high amount of threat, but dpsing the mob. This spec allows you to also have a free of cost smash whenever you need it, which is one of our threat builders in immortal tree. I noticed high numbers of dmg, and have literrally no problem with threat. Keep in mind, you need to use the following rotation to get the rage for your impale and force scream. Saber throw > Charge > Enrage. Then proceed with Impale>Force Scream, buffer rage with assault and sunders. keep enrage on CD. Smash on CD. Be sure to use your impale with viscous throw under 20% for the 60% crit after the impale. This spec is viable as well in pvp for all you tanky huttball runners Hope this helps you gents for tanking.

Nov 29th pre-ordered, No emails, Time to go load up my gun