I like delayed project.

I use 1 lightsaber in randoms to fool peeps am a sage sitting on upper level casting TK with force potency :>

I never use saber strike, and I do use project quite a lot (not as much for the bonus to melee dmg, as for the dmg itself which is delayed, has almost 50% chance to cause 2 projects, and creates a burst with fib which can push someone right into the 30% area for spinning strike). I am never force starved, I don't spam attacks, I am not 100% in melee range even if I am not knocked back or rooted / snared. I am always planing ahead what I have to do next or prepare for depending on my target, proximity enemy / friendly targets, positions, objectives, since FS has a 7.5s CD, there is no point to spam DS or saber strike after 1st proc earlier than the timer as you won't get a new proc, I am usually staying at ~30-40% force pool when am engaged in combat to leave me enough to chain a new sequence without having to wait for regen. Again this is PvP strictly, in PvE of course you won't have gaps in your rotation as that is a hit in your dps, and you won't use project as much if at all.

Is not an easy spec to learn to play at it's full potency. A skilled player will do wonders with it, while average joe will overlap dots, miss procs, lose out on utility. You will lose your target when you cast FiB if you have in options click on terrain clear targets enabled. So be mindful depending on your taste and how fast you can retarget if you leave this on or off. But it pays off when you get the hang of it - if you enjoy the playstyle of course.

I think infiltratrion has higher problems achieving that, since the said healer can trinket and pop defensive CDs to mitigate / reduce or avoid the infiltratrion burst setup - which is also very visual and self communicating to an aware target. Unlike it, balance is always putting out constant pressure, and you don't know when big hits are coming, but once more, you are not meant to 4-5 global a healer as any dps spec (lol pyro / assault dps tanks), but when you connect with another dps on them, they are toast.

Forgot to add to previous post, stop being deluded that you do no dmg as balance (except aoe, which is worst dmg a shadow balance will do since you have 15s cd on FiB and only hits 3 targets), you are deluded if you think someone will non stop cleanse all your dots and all your dmg comes from the dots, and that you have no burst either. Your biggest dmg dealers are double strike, project, FS Mind Crush, FiB and at -30% hp Spinning Strike. Both other dots are for keeping pressure up or control (2s root unaffected by resolve), since we can't force them to crit (yes they are a good portion of sustained damage, but you won't kill someone with dots alone).

Am not sure what point are you trying to make? That a balance shadow is a burden to a premade group? Why? You don't get guard if focused? You don't get heals? You don't use defensive CDs? I mean seriously, you pull the wow glad card as in this should give you extra credibility on swtor forums, then presume everyone saying balance works is only doing 1v1 or pug WZs. Mate, we do play in premades vs premades, and that's how we got our experience with it, we did not spec balance for 1 WZ, camp some undergeared fresh 50 and think ya we pawned his sorry bum, so this spec will rock in rated. No offense, but we did some serious games as balance in order to see if we and our group are pleased with the play style / performance / utility / team support you name it. On a final note, don't play / try balance because some of us say is good on forums, test it yourself in a group setting after you get familiar with the spec playstyle, strenghts and weaknesses, utility and support etc. Then you will be in a position to rationalize yourself if is a good spec or not, if is "worth" a spot in a premade or not etc :>

You can't. You have a good chance as ballance, and maybe infiltration can too if they plan the burst with CC after the healer uses their trinket, but is in all situations an exercise in frustration, a tedious task since they are durable if they know what they are doing. Bring more peeps to focus them down :-)

I use all abilities, except standard attack and shadow strike. Each has their uses, some situational, some for procs etc. You use project in pvp quite a lot, is a good burst skill, but never use it when on low force and FiB is coming off cd or you have to refresh dots etc.

I really think is not worth in a group situation to give up 20s sprint and 45s resilience for shadow strike. CC has no place? I beg to different opinion. All CC is a big part of a group arsenal, be it incapacitates, stuns, snares, roots, knock backs, pulls. They are disrupting the opposing team pace, positioning, assist trains etc. The only downside of balance compared to infil is the immunity to heals for vanish duration, which in my book is minor compared to rest of tools. If we get some good games this days, I will fraps and post to show you how we play in different WZs with various comps, hopefully with voiceover to better illustrate the coordination of CC - but sadly most good teams we play against are on a break till 1.2 so no promises (no point to post teamplay vs pugs other than entertainment hehe). Don't get me wrong, I was a die hard infiltration advocate, recognizing at same time that KC from a shadow class POV is best team spec, but if you have to pick a different role for your team than a tank, then I highly recommend balance over infil in current game mechanics. I highly hope this is not the end of 1.2 notes for shadows, and both infil and balance will see some changes in the departments they are hurting most, as well with overall tanks reworked to make the shields and tank gear a must for tanking, not something that can solo hold a turret or door vs 2-3 peeps, but something that is very mobile, has a lot of utility and is very durable with CDs.

I was suspicious myself about how it will perform, and was advocating infiltration for rated instead. Now I gave it a try for past couple days, and am loving it, my team loves it, enemies hate me simply put :> Do not be deceived, you can still burst as balance, you have more control, more damage, more tools and ways to inflict / apply that damage / pressure, and easier time to stick on target or switch. All it comes down to, force regen wise, is to judge well when is worth to project and when to save force for utility (force lift, stun, reapply dots, FiB coming off CD, frame window for new Force Strike proc). Worth to mention you get 20s sprint, and 45s resilience which adds to your survability mobility and team utility. (Of course you can decide to pick infiltration tactics instead, but imho is not worth it because the proc is 10s governed, you won't be as much in melee range as infiltration spec, and losing 20s sprint and 45s resilience is not worth it at all for a 10s proc which if doesn't crit, is crap).

I think you can start raging haha! On another side note, why on earth do sneaky shadows need a pair of horns? Are they going to give us a new move in 1.2 to charge like a bull on a sorc butt from behind to knock em down and inflict stupor which leads to uncontrolled burst of laughter, completely annihilating them for rest of the game as they won't heal or shield or pull, since they are dieing in laughter IRL.

No offense but I think you picked the wrong tree to do dmg as a shadow :> The WZ numbers are deceptive and you will never burst someone with medium or high armor like a real dps spec can (not same numbers, not same time window). You only get 50% crit dmg bonus on FP project crit, in rest there are no talents for kinetic to boost critical dmg dealt, so you're stuck with what you get from gear +50% base surge. That's why you should focus more on power on your gear so your steady dps increases in value, instead of expecting big numbers. If you want big numbers, try infiltration. Balance is not shy either, but you can't burst as good as infiltration as you need to setup your burst by loading target with dots, having it debuffed with FiB etc.

You are missing the point, I think. Is kinetic dmg, +25% dmg will surely help vs heavy armor a lot, so that you don't go tickle tickle as deception / inf if your discharge doesn't crit, since maul / shadow strike proc is on 10s timer, and again, if it doesn't crit, is another tickle. All dps need to be able to do some consistent damage on a tank. Project / shock is supposed to be a costly spike dmg move *even for infil / deception outside of procs, let's face it if you are out of melee range you will still use shock / project even without the melee procs because is one of your few ranged dmg options). Is same with overload shot for operatives, they get (supposedly) a 25% passive dmg boost for being operatives instead of snipers. If is working or not, that's another discussion :> Why do you think balance / madness specs almost completely ignore project / shock in their rotations outside of keeping the melee dmg bonus buff up? Is too costly and the dmg is not comparable to doublestrike (kinetic / energy same reduced by armor), and it costs less force and also can proc stuff.

Just change all dots to do internal damage for balance / madness spec, to have an equal percent of dmg increase on all armor types. Seriously kinetic dmg dots on a tank is disheartening at best.

Madness is not bad in pvp by any means, get it out of your heads pvp is a team based game (dead world pvp, only WZs - soon rated), you are not supposed to 3 shot someone on opposing team before they can react as any dps. Are Mara / Sents in a better spot atm? Arguably yes due to better survability, and controlled burst be it anni / watchmen or rage / focus. Deception / Inf are potent on their own in a team setting, think about it every 2 voltaic / clairvoyant + shock / project is a good chunk of HP (less on tanks of course) most likely you are looking at least 5-7k dmg in 3 globals, which you can chain up non stop, if that's not good dmg then I don't know what to tell you.

So... you actually play like a true DoT class instead of no dots and just burst with DF and CL when wrath is up? lololol. Is same with Madness / Balance sin / shadow. We have no burst. There is none. Hardest hit is death field / force in balance, in rest is pressure and control with root / slow and steady constant dmg. You have 30m range for that, we need melee range :> Nobody said you are supposed to 3 shot peeps as a sorc (lololol), you play as a team member, and throw a shield here, a friendly pull there, a root there, snare that with FL, put some dots there etc.

Ok the thing is you won't live long enough to keep that pressure going, even if they don't get cleansed, your 2 dots on 5 peeps (exagerating here but for the sake of it), won't take more than 10% of their hp in best circumstances. 1 Dot is kinetic dmg, other one is internal, kinetic vs medium and heavy armor sucks donkey lolypops. You still have same survability as infiltration, so is not like out of sudden you have mega armor and defensive cds to allow you to keep spreading that pressure without becoming main healing target for your team. That's my point I am trying to make, infiltration while same squishy, can at least make an impact and deliver the burst when it matters to justify the dps slot they are filling in. If all your dots were doing internal dmg then by all means, would been awesome, but is not. Personally I'd love both ballance and inf to get a rework to be completely viable and ending up being a style preference instead of anything else. You also need to be in close range to apply most of your dots which means in middle of the enemy team, only sever force and FiB are 30 yards (for some odd reason).

That may have something to do with latency / server / wz lag as well. Yesterday I was able to vanish an operative hidden strike (similar to how you would vanish a rogue cheapshot in wow), I got knocked flat on my face in vanish, no damage taken, and the operative was running in circles looking for me. It felt great :>

Am not saying you can't do aoe dmg (via spreading dots + FiB) but that sort of pressure doesn't have a place in current game pace - IMHO. Is same why lethality snipers or operatives are not shining or desired, yes they can spread dots, they can be cced while their dots tick if nobody is cleansing them (if is worth it ofc), but they won't make a big impact in any scale fight. Due to how resolve works, you have brief windows to burst someone down (ie 2 CCs on the healer) to gain the advantage. Until 1.2 will come out and show us what BW has in mind with each class and their ACs, as well general roles in pvp, I am pretty sure that shadow / sin tanks, vanguards assault / pt pyro's and merc / commando healers (possible with marauders / sents thrown in as well for more diversity) will be most fotm / desired for rated WZs for obvious reasons. If you have other classes you will be at a disadvantage for several reasons: low survability / mobility / low dmg or non-sustainable dmg, or difficult to switch targets and putting same dps out, lack of utility etc. Is same as everyone cries sorcs and sage healers are op in 10-49, then in 50 bracket all those sorcs and sages get blown up when 2-3 peeps look at them through guard and taunts you name it. Their pull friendly is highly overshadowed by several pulls from the classes I mentioned earlier (all with shorter CD as well). Same why jugg / mara and counterparts won't make great ball carriers in rated compared to current sin / shadow variants. You never used low slash on a force shroud + sprint sin tank calling it on vent to prevent the score? The survability of inf / deception only strikes when in pugs, with a good tank and healers you are not as squishy anymore (am not saying the survability is fine, but is not that bad either when playing with a team, while retaining the highest burst close to pyro / assault, good single target control etc).

No offense, but what do you mean by HEAVY periodic damage. If your dots would have a similar mechanic to watchmen sent / anni mara, and you could spread them to several peeps then yes I'd agree, but that's not the case. Also since the changes with dot ticks not interrupting, your team will put more emphasis on CC in voidstar / alderaan for objectives than to spread damage. IMHO is easier for a shadow inf to get procs and charges up on a target then quickly switch and burst for a great amount on another target. Low slash, unlike instant force lift, doesn't fill resolve bar leaving room for other CC, as well having a much lower CD. Do both dps trees need a fine tune / rework? Definetly. But as it stands now I really don't see how a balance shadow can perform better than inf, while both being subpar to KC one.

The point is that yes you should win most fights vs a single enemy dps, but not with 80-100% hp? Because that means not even 2 dps can take down a SOLO tank to capture an objective in this scenario, not to mention some dps are disfavored by line of sight and cast times, which makes it easy to completely avoid most of their damage. You should be tanky no doubt here, but not to the point to leave a tank guarding each side turrets on alderan and zerg middle with 6 peeps because the enemy team can't afford to send more than 1-2 dps to either sides in order to keep middle. Think about it peeps 1 healer and 1 shadow / sin tank with dps gear can hold a group of 4 indefinetly, taunts, guard, pull, heals, loads of CC etc. Why do other peeps play dps in pvp then when all there is to it resumes to tanks and healers?

Sin / shadow tank specs will see changes most likely, personally I'd opt for all defensive CDs reduce damage dealt by 50% for tank specs for duration, so you actually serve the role of a tank and not a nigh-unkillable killing machine. That's why you picked tank role, to survive more, not to melt faces even without support because you put out similar numbers with greater defenses and self healing on top of that. Give tanks more utility, rework defensive CDs, rework shielding, but they need to lose some damage (especially burst sequences).

Don't guard alone? In order for a shadow / sin or operative / scoundrel to do this, they need their 2 min CD vanish. They CC you for 8s while they fake cap the turret, you use trinket, they vanish, you both get out of combat and he re-CCs you for 8s, this time capping the turret.

No, you will also bring guard and tank armor since you will run with Ion cell / gas cyl. You also have a stun and an interrupt. As I said in my post the damage would not be a problem if you did not have guard available as well and tank armor (not everyone has full elemental dmg + 90% armor pen, so yes, your mitigation does matter in how fast you can be brought down). You are only dps who can pull a target out of guard range and 2-3 shot it by yourself, any target. Let's be fair here, nobody wants a class with highest and easiest burst setup, having same utility as other dps not so gifted in their burst / sustained or durability departments. Imagine marauders / sents having force push as well (and resetting their charge too). Wouldn't that be far too stretched for one of the better dps melee with great mobility avoidance and defensive CDs, coupled with their group utility and CC as well? Am not jealous nor do I want nerfed your spec, I just want it to be a tradeoff for your burst dmg and your utility and self preservation. That's why I said, force VG / PT to use combustive / plasma for their dps spec, or severly gimp their dmg potencial if they choose to play in Ion cell / gas cylinder. Why can't shadows / sins stay in tank stance, get force pull, and mantain their respective dps tree burst / sustained dmg capabilities? Is not about making all specs same, but about balanced choices: I want increased utility and self preservation, then I must give up some of the damage I can do, I want increased sustained and burst, then I must give up some utility and defenses. Makes sense? :>