This is the main reason why this system works: the "exclusive" people. Namely, it is very hard (not impossible, but hard) to make the PvP and PvE contents provide the same gear at the same rate. Because both play styles require different types of availability and organization. For example, they don't have in SWTOR the ability to make full premades in Warzones (aside from the occasional "queue at the same time and get lucky" move). So, there is no equivalent to a raiding in the warzone environment at all. By "raiding" I mean something that requires 8 people to come together and coordinate to overcome a certain challenge and get rewards while doing it. So imagine if there was no PvP stat, only one gear set witht he same or similar stats for both PvP and PvE. You can get that gear by doing PvE progression (hard mode FPs for the initial gear, then normal raids for the next tier, then Hard mode/ Nightmares for the next tiers) or through PvP progression. How would you set up a PvP progression equivalent to the PvE one? With the current PvP model where people can solo queue (something PvE players can't do due to the nature of PvE content and no LFG tool), and without the 8 men queues, it's pretty much impossible to balance. If the PvP grind to get the gear was not so hard, PvE players would simply grind some warzones and then go straight to normal raiding with overgear, learn the fights, then go to harder modes. And they would complain that they have to do PvP that they don't want to do in order to get the gear to do raids. If to avoid that they made the PvP grind harder, PvPers would complain that they have to do PvE content they don't want to participate in to get the gear faster (HM FPs etc), it's either that or face the grind. If they make the grind reasonable in PvP and the latest gear available without the need to coordinate at least 8 people, then PvErs will complain that some unguilded solo warzone kid in their mom's basement has the awesome gear that they worked so hard over the last couple months to get with their hardcore raider guild mates. You see the complications? Root cause: MMOs are competitive in nature, that "forces" most players to do what is faster in order to get the best gear and kill the content first. Even if they don't have to go to the fastest route if they don't want to, the community will demand them to do so to be taken seriously, so they will effectively HAVE to go through the fastest/ easiest route or suffer the consequences. A reasonable balance could be reached, but given the general intellect and maturity of most of the MMO population, this reasonable balance would be overlooked by the biased optics and moronic formed opinions, so it wouldn't sell, and both PvP and PvE players would cry endlessly at the forums asking to make different sets because they can't bear the sight of a player that doesn't do what they do using the same gear they took months to get. Separating the content is easier to balance the progression, so no one can use one game play style as a shortcut to the other and only a few (like you) complain, hence the PvP and PvE sets.

I'm currently rolling a hybrid spec of Vengeance/ Immortal as a tank. I'm willing to switch to full DPS vengeance to test it and see how I like it. So I'd like to ask: In this build, do you guys use the power generator or the shield generator? (I'm assuming power, just wanted to confirm).

To the OP, this is the spec I roll with. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMGdzzZsMrMrhdzM.1 I have a brief explanation of how you play with it in a guide I'm putting up at my guild's forums, it's still under development though, so not sure how much it will help you, but for someone starting it's certainly useful. You don't need to loggon nor register to see it, it's at the open section. http://www.legend-gaming.net/jenjidai/forums/showthread.php?t=13004

I honestly don't think the extra damage on Smash makes much of a difference in this spec, I think the instant Force Choke without having to channel increases your efficiency more, it's great to kill dying healers (Force Choke then Ravage). My spec is this one: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMGdzzZsMrMrhdzM.1 Basically, Keep same points in vengeance tree, remove the 2 points on Decimate, put on on Quake and one on Force Grip at the Immortal tree.

Thanks a lot, no need to explain, I understood the reasons for the changes you suggested, minor but important, a nice fine tuning. I'll be adjusting the spec I have ASAP. Thanks again

Vengeance/ Immortal PvP hybrid here. I mostly Tank/ CC and support DPS on enemy healers (as you PvPers probably already know). For me this skill is very situational, still usefull but not awesome. I use it together with other things, one of those Warzone Heal items or Endure pain, sometimes a Saber Ward. It's one of those extras you pop when you're just stalling the other team so someone will cap a node or plant a bomb, when you're stopping people from capping and every second counts or when you're buying time for your healer to get to you and keep you alive. By itself though, it does little to nothing. My DPS in this spec is not vital, it's just support DPS, so in the situations above I can afford to stop DPSing just to stay alive a little longer, get healed, then back to the fight. When my rage goes down from it I pop enrage and move on. They are weak heals, but it's better than nothing. I do think it could be improved to be more useful.

Interesting observation, I think it's completely valid. Defense wise it might be the case that sonic barrier is better and will reduce more incoming damage, deafening defense is really only useful when I pop Enraged Defense. But I still took Deafening Defense for the reduction on the cooldown of Intimidating Roar, I use it so much and 15 seconds is a lot for a cooldown like that, I use it 20% more often basically, which can make a difference even though it's situational (and bad pugs always break the fear). I'll keep this build for some time, get more practice with it, get more gear. Then I'll change the talents as you suggest to get Sonic Barrier and feel the difference. Since I've not been playing for too long with this class and build if I changed it now I probably wouldn't notice the difference on the "feel" of the class. Thanks a lot for the feedback.

Yep, I've been running a similar spec and it works pretty well, only difference is that instead of picking the 2 points on rage tree I got two on Savagery, but it's an awesome spec indeed, I have lots of fun with it. The "annoying rotation" is the best to do on healers. Interrup their cast - Force push - saber throw - force charge interrupt again - force choke - intimidating roar (full resolve here) - interrupt one last time. That's almost 15 seconds out of the fight for the healer.

What do you guys think of this build? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101RrGzkzZfRr0rhdzM.1 Would you say it is better or worse than the immortal one for Tank/ Support with some DPS? I think it loses the CC because of the lack of backhand, but it gains in damage with Impale and Savagery. Do you guys have any observations? I'm a new Juggernaut and I kinda came up with the build above without researching much, so wanted to get some feedback. Thanks!

As I said in the other thread, the evidence provided is enough, thanks.

Please disregard the message above. The official position of the Jen'jidai after you guys provided the evidence as I had requested is that you got it first. You didn't post it because you're not a PvE guild and didn't give it priority and that is fine. There is no discussion, you got server first on the droid, we got server first on everything else (as far as we can confirm). Congratulations on your server first Spectre, we will see you around

Good enough, thanks for providing the evidence, wish this had been linked in the first time you posted

It's ok, I take your word on it. What I don't understand is why you took 48 hours to post your screenshot on the server first kill. One would imagine that you would at least post something in the forums at the time of the kill or right after, not only when somebody else says they did it. Call me skeptic, but the screenshot you posted, without interface to show a clock in the background doesn't prove much, you could have taken it at any time between the time you say you killed and the time you posted. Our screenshots have no interface either, but they were posted within minutes after the actual kill, we're not posting a picture and claiming it was taken 2 days ago, you are.

Jen'jidai - 120 (And growing)

Is there a screenshot?

This will be glorious, looking forward to it.

Great job and effort guys, makes me proud to be in this community, hope I can join you soon!

Our blasters/ force lightnings will block out the suns! Count me in, we should have a good Jen'jidai showing.