Lormif
-
Posts
669 -
Joined
Content Type
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Posts posted by Lormif
-
-
Your argument was that other classes had higher health. I showed you EXACTLY how this was false.
actually you showed where it could be normalized, not that that they dont have higher health.. You even stated by default they have higher, you have to switch our gear, if you have access to it, to normalize it.
-
I JUST linked what you said, you CLEARLY brought this up.
It is not even worth it any more.. It is 3am, and you are clearly going to believe what you want to believe, even if it is fiction... So I am going to bed so I can do well on my data structures test tomorrow.
-
Fair enough. It's a bit pointless to argue over who brought up what any longer so moving on to the actual analysis that both Aidank and I posted separately do you have anything to counter the arguments made?
I have already made them, no point in bringing them up again, just because you dont agree with them dont make them false.
-
It's not a defensive cooldown as much as a class mechanic. It has 100% uptime and like other similar mechanisms in MMOs it's a way to counteract low armor values. Think Death Knight tanking bubbles to make up for their lack of block and armor rating from a physical shield.
wait, now I am confused, now you say force armor has a 100% uptime?
It has the POTENTIAL to be up 100% of the time, if we take no damage.....
-
Because nobody brought it up for 10 pages until you falsely mentioned that you somehow proved or showed that Armor > Static Barrier.
because I was at work, sort of like how you brought up you had to leave for a while the other day and then countered all the points brought up during that time......
-
Notice how I said that you brought this up not that you start it, I already repeated what you and tum said, what you replied had absolutely nothing to do with what tum said. You brought a dead issue, that you were wrong about mind you, up again.
I really don't get what about this you don't understand, it wasn't being argued, and then you brought it up, and now it's being argued.
I did not bring up a dead issue, I continued an issue....Just because you say something and think it is dead, does not mean it is.
-
That kind of argument is completely ridiculous, by that logic all cooldowns are meaningless because what if you don't have them up during a particular fight?
You stated all sorc/sages who could not have it up before every combat were aweful, yet somehow my post is ridiculous because I point out that is not possible.....
You have absolutely no idea what a fallacy is, stop using that word because you are using it wrong.
my 104 in logic would say otherwise, but what ever.
Every piece of gear has the same ratio of stats, ones with less health have more willpower. You can swap out mods if you would like to have more health, but either way it's a moot argument
On my sorcerer, I've got a little over 16k health, I used it as an assumption for comparison. Sorcerers can easily get 16k health in their pvp gear without having to swap out mods, so that's the number I used.
and yet I see most heavy and med armor classes on my server with 18/19k health, yet few with 16...
Again when you are trying to do an analysis like this you want a normal pool, not a narrow pool
And again, you're resorting to a RED HERRING argument.
YOU BROUGHT THIS UP
and yet again, I did not bring it up....
-
Since you've got extremely selective memory
This is what tum said
This is what you said.
You brought this up, you are wrong, you are arguing on tangents, you are the one making generalizations, and you are the one resorting to logical fallacies because you've got no premise to argue on
Lol, I am the one with selective memory... Lol..
How about you go back to this post on page 34, which is where I started posting about it after:
I'm not saying that heavy armor is worthless. I'm saying that bubble is massively better. I'm not really sure what sort of math you're using.
Half of the skills in this game are elemental/internal or ignore armor in some fashion.
Heavy armor is actually closer to 30%, and bubble can be reduced to 17seconds, and BM would bubble for 3500, so that's actually closer to 30k damage over 20 seconds.
Tracer Missile ignores 20% of armor, so that 30% becomes 24% while the 20% becomes 16%. That means that a Heavy Armored target takes 8% less damage from Tracer Missiles than a Sorcerer.
Assuming an average of 2500 per Tracer missile, per 1.5sec, for 16.5 seconds, that'd be 27500 damage before mitigation.
A Sorcerer blocks 3000 of that, and reduces the rest by 18%.
The Sorcerer would take 20090 damage.
Assuming the Sorcerer pre-cast Bubble, that'd be 17090.
A Heavy-armor blocks 0 of that, and reduces by 24%.
The Heavy-armored class would take 20900 damage.
When as a Sorcerer are you going to have somebody sitting on you spamming attacks, you've got every possible escape in the book ONTOP of bubble. Heavy-armored classes don't have any escape skills, ontop of Sorcerers having more CC than any other class. The Sorcerer can do a dozen different things to prevent the Tracer Missile spam ontop of Bubble preventing damage.
So if my bubble vs armor posts started after this, how is it that I started it?
-
Why are you going back to a discussion that's over 30 pages old? Is it because you have no counterargument for the current argument over my static barrier analysis?
Wow....just wow.....
-
The static stat value non-moddable gear is actually gear that has mods LOCKED. They still have mods in them they're just not available to be swapped out. What this means is if you REALLY want higher endurance you can swap out the high dps mods for endurance mods in your main armor to balance it out. The -ONLY- time when you're completely incapable of matching another character's health level is when they swap out every single DPS mod they have for high endurance tanking mods. If this is the type of case you're talking about then it's hopeless. You're just going to keep coming up with ridiculous restrictions for every argument to fit your view. I'm tempted to do the same but I'm afraid people will think that I'm clueless for arguing that way.
You are actually the only one doing it.. everyone has exactly 16k life, 30 meters and you give up chase automatically with no other mitigating factors.....
-
My answers are in red.
I am going to point out one thing, because I am tired of arguing with you...
In this conversation we are talking about hps, so when I am talking about offhands, it is pretty much implied I am talking about hps, yet for some reason your circular argument decides to throw in all stats in general.....
-
Lormif, it's time for you to just stop, you've created some 100 pages arguing on tangents, bringing up strawman arguments, and then misusing the words "Generalization" and "fallacies"
A what strawman, and I did not bring up the tangent, it was actually you.
But you might actually have a point if you're referring to generalizations like
Oh wait a minute, that's you. Making a blanket statement like armor mitigation is better than force armor. Not to mention that's completely ridiculous, as tumri correctly pointed out, armor is only better than force armor if you're being healed through ridiculous amounts of damage, in the average fight, that lasts about 10-15 seconds, about 10% more mitigation on armor will range between doing next to nothing (powertechs) To reducing damage by 10% (Juggernauts)
Actually I pointed out how it was not a blanket statement... Tumri however decides to use anecdotal evidence to try and prove it wrong.
On the other hand, assuming a 3k bubble and a 16k health pool, and that you're not an awful sorcerer and you're bubbling before combat starts, you're essentially going to have an extra 6k health, which means it takes 37.5% extra damage to kill you, and that's against all classes.
So if I cant get my bubble on before every fight I am a bad sorcerer.... Because you know fights can not start one after the other leaving me with a cooldown.. You know that is kinda a fall...Oh nevermind you guys never give up with that....
Still you are ASSUMING a lot.. However Armor is ALWAYS on. In addition when you dont assume everyone has the same hps, which they wont, armor comes out on top.
So not only are you making sweeping generalizations, but these generalizations aren't even true in the vast majority of scenarios.
I have not made many if any sweeping generalizations, where as you have made many, and it happens that mine are correct, atleast on every server I play on. I dont know which server you guys play on where everyone has around 16k hps.
But even then this isn't the topic at hand, the thread is clearly titled sorcerer and sage CC is overpowered, the argument here has nothing to do with their survivability (Which is still extremely good overall) so since you're such an expert on "logical fallacies" or at least you really like using that word could I introduce you to a little friend of mine, his name is Red Herring.
Well thanks for pointing out the pro nerf side commiteda fallacy, since the ones who brought this up, at least to me...., particularly the OP.
-
1. I linked the highest ranked items but as I mentioned in the post you can obtain lower level mods with the exact same ratios. If a heavy armored juggernaut has more health he is using mods that are have a different stat ratio.
Or we are using pvp gear.. Again, you keep assuming I have access to PVE mods
If you're talking champion or BM gear you can simply rip the mods out of other items like everyone else. Champion level(rank 24) mods are extremely easy to obtain. The fact that you're trying to argue that using crap default mods is grounds for a totally different calculation shows you have no real argument.
So you argue in circles. The Champ/bm mods are the default, but it is crap.
Here's a little tip: PvE and PvP mods have the EXACT SAME STATS. Enable enhanced tooltips in your settings and I guarantee you'll find whatever stat ratio mod you want for your class just from champion/BM gear.
If I can get multiples of the items, that takes a while... Not to mention, as a caster stacking end is not always the best course
For the pieces with no mods available to be swapped out you GAIN other stats if the piece has less endurance. All mods/enhancements/etc even out in total stat value.
Me gaining more stats does not negate that you have more hps and your armor mitigation scales with your hps...
If all you want is endurance and crappy DPS stats then by all means replace those high primary stat and high power stat mods with high endurance mods.
read above, which is why you cant assume everyone has the same hps.
2. This isn't a logical fallacy. You throw that term around whenever you don't actually have an argument. It's both frustrating and humorous. Mostly frustrating because you basically pretend the entire argument is invalid because you want it to be.
It is a fallacy, look up hasty generalization. You are arguing that because some pvpers have access to the best mods, all pvpers have access to them, which is not true.
3. What faulty numbers? I just proved that you can have the EXACT same stats as any other class.
Actually you didnt.. You still did not make up for the offhand and static peices..... In additon you even pointed out that having the same stats may gimp some classes, showing why again you cant assume even hps.
4. What analogy? What part of the last 3 of my posts was an analogy? Throwing out words that don't actually make sense in context isn't going to confuse me into agreeing with you. It's going to make everyone think you don't actually have any counterargument and as a result you're throwing out random terms and stringing together nonsense.
Your analogy of the 2 heavy armors vs the 1 sorc, do you even remember what you argue?
5. A control? For what? The math? The control is a 0 armor character with no mitigation. The result is they take the full 20k, 40k, etc damage.
A control can also be a static level of gear...IE no changes.
-
1. No they do not.
All mods have the same endurance if they're the same type. At 25 it's Regular(48/29/37), Type A(61/37/11), and Type B(37/48/29). Some of the datamined mods are bugged but you can confirm this pattern in-game. Lower level mods of the same type have the same ratio but lesser overall stats.
Proof:
http://www.torhead.com/item/7KGWxhz/advanced-aptitude-mod-25
http://www.torhead.com/item/82swZiD/advanced-deft-mod-25
Enhancements are obviously the same for everyone since it's all secondary stats.
Armoring at rank 25 is either 51/55(tanking) or 61/44(healing/DPS).
Proof:
http://www.torhead.com/item/a34hSps/advanced-commando-armoring-25
http://www.torhead.com/item/2k3yxhO/advanced-reflex-armoring-25
http://www.torhead.com/item/flFdT4A/advanced-guardian-armoring-25
http://www.torhead.com/item/gXfHZo8/advanced-might-armoring-25
-----
You have no grounds for saying there is a difference in health between different armor types.
------
2. What does that other scenario have to do with the math NOW?
------
3. PvP gear actually skews the damage taken in favor of the Sorcerer since the 40k damage comparison would turn into a 36k damage comparison, the 20k damage comparison would turn into an 18k damage comparison, etc.
So you are assuming I have access to high level PVE items, and you forget about things like offhands?
Shoot even my battlemaster stuff has less end.
This is just you yet again trying to fit your argument into a vary narrow scope and using a logical fallacy to make it seem like it covers the entirety.
There is a reason when scientists do things like this they using controls.
As for the comparison, you are stull using faulty numbers, and a 1 sided analogy..
-
Every single other class/spec will have much higher internal damage. The Sorcerer hybrid is the ONLY popular spec that has mostly kinetic damage. It's not reasonable to completely redo the calculations like that. I'm not even taking Armor penetration into account and the second most popular PvP class has 55% armor penetration with Tracer Missile+Passive ArP(Mercenaries). 30% Internal/Elemental is an extremely reasonable estimate. In fact some classes have a lot more of their PvP damage not mitigated by armor. Why do you think there is so much discussion about Tank mitigation being pitiful in PvP? Their armor/shields do not mitigate Internal/Elemental is why.
You're trying to twist the math in your favor by giving everyone different health pools. How exactly does a medium armor wearer automatically have higher health? Is there something preventing a Sorcerer from using the same mods as the other guy? It's impossible to reason with you if you're going to play the "lets put special conditions and limitations to ever possible scenario to skew the results in my favor" game.
Actually I am paking very logical assumptions, full pvp gear. Also yes there is something preventing me from using the same mods, it is called stats. Str mods inherently have more endurance on them. Am I supposed to use mods not made for my class just to get my health up?
So no, I am not staking hps to make my case stronger, the game does that for me.
As for the damage discrepancy, you were the one that made the 2v1 comparison vs the sorc, not me, therefore again, it is you who needs to adjust the math.
-
Ok so armor scales. The problem with thinking of PvP damage like a constant stream as in PvE is that someone taking that sort of damage will simply die anyways.
Getting piled is the only time you'd take enough damage in 20 seconds that 12-15% extra mitigation is more than a 3.5k bubble would provide. Keep in mind 30-40% of PvP damage is NOT kinetic/energy and will NOT be mitigated by armor. Lets math it out.
Static Barrier Math(PvP)
-------------------------
16k+3.5k = 19.5k w/16% mitigation = L
16k+0 = 16k w/24% mitigation = M
16k+0 = 16k w/30% mitigation = H
20k damage(6k internal/elemental) in 20 seconds:
L = 11,760(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 1740 health remaining
M = 10,640(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = -640 health remaining
H = 9,800(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 200 health remaining
40k damage(12k Internal/Elemental) in 20 seconds:
L = 23,520(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -16,020
M = 21,280(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -17,280
H = 19,600(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -15,600
--------------------------
Now think about this for a second. When will you reasonably be taking 40k damage in 20 seconds? Keep in mind PvE DPS on a stationary target is around 1500DPS for most classes. In PvP you can reasonably expect a player to do ~1k DPS to a human target. For Sorcerers with a single bubble to have less mitigation than the Heavy armored classes with the most physical mitigation in the game two well geared players would need to beat on the Sorcerer for a full 20 seconds without interruption. If a Sorcerer manages to cast a second bubble from having one pre-cast prior to this happening then the Heavy armor is better at an astonishing 80k over 20 seconds. With this in mind it is safe to assume that Sorcerer light armor is more than made up for by Static Barrier.
Here is the problem your logic.. You assume all health in pvp is equal, when it is not, not even close. It can have more then a 3k variance among the classes. This is not a small over site, since armor scales with hps because you can survive longer to take more damage to be mitigated.
In addition you assume that pvp damage is 30-40%, which it is much less especially for the spec you hate.. For example in the hybrid spec you hate so much 1/7th the damage is internal.
Therefore you need to adjust your comparison of the sorc/2 other classes to show the differnce in both health and the 14% internal damage.
-
Just arguing the way you do:
If the Sage had enough skill he could overcome it. Other classes need that animation delay so they can survive.
Actually that is not how I argue at all. But nice try, keep it coming.
How I argue is with numbers, such as how real armor mitigation is much better then force armor, cause it scales, and other facts.
-
How is your statement any more logical? Oh wait I know... It's because it supports YOUR argument and not mine. I see.
My statement is more logical because it is talking about SAGES massive problem with ability delay.. It talks about the FACT that if when you see the animation for many of our INSTANT abilitys you can avoide it, and in the case of abilities with cooldowns remove it completely.
For example foce wave, if when you see us doing our animation you can do any type of CC AFTER we start the cast of the INSTANT ability and interupt it, and even make the cooldown trigger without any use...
Actually not sure a strawman, but it a logical fallacy.
Edit: ahh that is right composition.
-
With a little skill a Sorcerer doesn't need overpowered CC. See what I did there?
Yes, you based a very illogical statement off my logical statment.....
-
Seriously? You chose to gimp yourself by not using the proper gear, and then complain on the forums other classes are OP? It's a lot like chosing not to put on any pants and then complaining gee it's too cold in here, we need to turn up the heat!
I mean really? 0 expertise.
I've posted different responces as others have but most of which were ignored. I don't think there is any reasoning with you. You've already already formulated your opinion. Based off of your extensive experience of never playing the class and not using any expertise gear.
If you look at the big picture of this game class balance is the least of it's worries. They really need to fix a large number of things. The biggest being Ilum redesign, UI, all the bugs with queues and rewards. The game is dying already. If you want to twist the blade, by all means keep crying on the forums for nerfs. All that will happen is more and more players will leave. Maybe that's what you want.
And even with no expertise he still gets that massive damage, while doing less damage to his opponents.
-
There's always a scoreboard, either internal (for BW) or external (for all)
1. Define
2. Measure
3. Analyze
4. Improve
5. Control
Anyway good to see you aren't refuting sorcerer wz scoreboard opness.
You have to define scoreboard OPness before I can agree or refute it.. Can they get decent healing metals, sure, but they only way they will be 90% on healing isnt any healers, not a dps spec. But this is true for all dps that can also heal...They still cant get protection so the 90% in all 3 catagory is plain false.
-
I'm sorry when Bioware can address the ANIMATION issues between a Sorc and Sage then things might be able to get fixed. If they don't and nerf the classes then it's game over! I'm really sick of bioware not listening to the Sage Forums and the problems with the class. Until then, this is a stupid thread.
Very true, with a little skill any class can avoid several of our CCs
-
That's how it should be in theory. In practice you can easily see that while they may (ha) not get on the field top dps, survival and utility, they do get 90% of each 3, while other classes only get a 100% in 1.
So this is not about balancing PVP, it is about balancing a scoreboard.....
-
Bubble is op because it absorbs rather than mitigate, but even that is not the real issue. I have said it once and i will say it a thousand times, utility. The op actually has a rather good point about sorcs. Making a hybrid build you can get the best of all worlds without sacrificing anything. Even mercs have to sacrifice healing for dps or vice versa, a sorc has all the utility they need without sacrificing anything.
I am not sure if you are serious or not.. Absorbs is just a keyword, force armor mitigates, if you dont think it does tell it to the sorcer who still gets hit for partial damage
Armor is still better because it scales with damage.
The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP
in PvP
Posted
and where exactly do you get that number? Out of your butt? 16k +3.5 (assuming this no one can comfirm it being that high) is 19.5.. If you are lucky you got a cast before battle and somehow lasted long enough too then you have 16+7 which is still 23.. So where exactly is the other 11.5k-7k coming from?