Hey guys, just weighing in here with some thoughts on the build. It's a fantastic build and it absolutely does everything the OP says that it can do in group play. That last bit is important, this isn't a spec you can go in as solo queue as you need a team that can play around it's strengths and it's weaknesses (which are many). As much as I've enjoyed the spec though, the biggest problem with it is that if you're already queueing with a tank (or two), then your contribution ends up being almost minimal. Yes, the OP is right, as a juggernaut you do significantly less single-target DPS than say a BH or even an assassin (Good assassins deal a ****ton of damage). If you're queueing right, you're queueing with at least one other tank already and the other two tanks (shadow/powertech) are strictly better than juggs in most situations barring huttball shenanigans. In short, Other classes can provide the control that's needed better than an immortal juggernaut and our contribution ends up being moot. Still, it was fun enough that I'll make a video sometime next week to showcase the spec in full swing. As for the OP's points about Rage, yes, it can be seen and it can be avoided, but in reality it's not AS easy as it sounds. Good juggernauts will know exactly when and how to drop their smash bombs and position them such that they will hit as many players as possible (such as I, myself have done). I think that rage is fully viable and while it can be boring, it's got a lot of potential in the right group. Vengeance too does really well but it suffers from the unfortunate nature of a horrible ramp-up which rage really doesn't have to worry about as much (since crush ticks generate quickly and you have choke). Note: Optimally as rage/vengeance, I like to queue with an assassin tank, a BH healer and a hybrid op healer. The hybrid op is the key as they can stunlock very well whilst keeping up significant damage on the player that you're trying to take down. As the immortal dps spec, I queued with a pyro PT, an assassin tank and the op healer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwLo3st0rqg&feature=related Relevant videos. In all seriousness though OP, get some more gear and you'll feel a lot better about it. The more expertise you have the better.

The SFW does not, in any way, contribute to the success or failure of your team. It doesn't matter that you've gotten 75k healing because the item requires that you be OUT of combat to use it. People that end up with 75k-300k healing are doing so out of combat and thus it makes no overall contribution to the team. All it does is give the player extra medals which are effectively meaningless. For the record, I don't use the SFW. Medal hunters don't contribute to wins so there's no point to it imho.

There's two versions of the bug, one where you become stuck in space with the nar shadda texture in the background whilst completely unable to do anything (aside from target players and attempt to intercede). The other is where you become stuck in an area and are leashed to that area, however you can intercede (not charge) out.

It's an interesting build and having obliterate nice buuuuuuuuuuuuut..... Impale costs too much rage in shii-cho, or rather, without the refund you're just not going to have enough rage to sustain the damage. Shatter just has better synergy with pure vengeance and crush has too much synergy with rage for you to miss out on those. and yes, I've tried out the spec before

Hate hijacking your thread, but if you want to check out another rage video, I've got a short one up here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4 There are some vengeance clips thrown in too, but still, thought I'd throw it in for viewing pleasure

I agree except on the score of smash/sweep being on a 15 second Cd, they're actually on a 9 sec C with talents. Anyway, I'm working on getting clips for a larger vengeance video since that's what people seem to want to see regardless. No rage at all =P

Operatives and Ret pallies (s6) would like to have a word with you! No but seriously, you hit the point I'm trying to get across spot on. There are other viable specs for juggs to play in pvp, people are just a bit too rigid in their train of thought at the moment.

Depends on the mood =P. Nah in all seriousness, I enjoy vengeance more than rage, as posters have mentioned though, Vengeance suffers from a lack of synergy in damage (particularly talents making ravage less of a damage loss) and from talents that naturally increase crit change/modifiers. At the same time, I think you're being a bit disingenuous to rage if you're saying that *all* it's damage is from smash. A fair bit of it comes from crush (which is our snare, arguably the best in the game and something that gets overlooked quite often) and from force scream which hits rather hard and is free if you spec correctly.

Lightning Storm is a channel, usually sorcs that channel it get hit pretty hard. Yes I do, there's such a thing as something being "too powerful" and the spec being too one dimensional. I think the spec's design itself is correct in essence but needs to be tweaked. If they were to nerf Rage's AoE component in any way the spec WOULD have to be compensated. It has nothing else going for it at the moment. This was pretty natural gameplay, not going to lie. If you mean "tank all the things" is normal gameplay, then you've been playing immortal for too long. We're not JUST tanks, we DO have to kill things every now and then and I *do* drop AoE taunts and Single Target taunts in almost every fight. I didn't go out of my way to get kills in the video, I went to get kills to clear the way for people to grab objectives and if I remember correctly killing people is one way to do that. The tone for the video was not meant to be completely serious either but apparently that flew over some people's heads. I created this video fully intending that juggernauts watch the thing (it pays to know your audience). If anything, it was to dispel the mindset that the only viable spec we have is Immortal (which many seem to think). In any case, pointing out that I had guard is pointless, it's a fundamental game mechanic, good tanks will know to switch it to players that are taking damage (as keeping it on a person that's not taking damage is wasting it's potential) I don't think you watched the movie in full. Sure, there were clips with big numbers, but apparently that's all people hooked on to. Stopping caps? Keeping an entire team from overwhelming a node? Wiping out 3 healers? Those are things that matter. Again, I made the video because I wanted to point out that juggernauts had more than one way to play that was viable and that all the rage (if you'll pardon the pun) was dumbfounded. Rage's AoE is not a gimmick, the design is clearly intentional for it to have the AoE pressure that it does. In my humble opinion it might be too high and I personally feel a slight shift in the damage might be needed to keep it viable if such a nerf does come. As for your disrespect comment, I don't really care tbh, (ironic given that you're calling me a punk) but it's w/e. As a wise man once said: ***** Sprinkles

In b4 bioware posts that this post is BS

Hilarious, I had a guard in 2 clips and a healer following me in a couple. So you're going to call me creating a video about a class that does well with healers... cheating in a sense? I queue with friends and have fun with the game, that's the entire point, In any case to address the "gimmick" point. There's not a single class in the game that can put out this kind of consistent AoE pressure, that's what I'm trying to point attention towards. The video wasn't to demonstrate some "mad skill" or anything of that sort, if that's what you were expecting then you missed the point. And again, Rage doesn't have AWFUL single-target damage, you can easily spike someone down if you know what you're doing. I also don't think the spec is completely overpowered, just tuned incorrectly (some shift from AoE to single target would be a godsend for the spec) Like any spec, it has it's strengths and the people that you queue with need to know how to play around them just as well as you know how to play around theirs. As for wandering around aimlessly... I'm not quite sure what you mean by this in the slightest. Any "wandering" was either me returning to the group or moving down the huttball field or to aid in caps or to defend/pressure a point. If you're talking about not doing things in the interim, there's a lull in efficient rage gameplay where you can't make use of abilities other than sundering assault and assault (as you're waiting for the CD off of crush and other abilities to come up. People have limited attention spans *shrug* if you want to point out a PvP video where the player fails repeatedly, then go ahead. I probably made a mistake by including the vengeance clips because looking at the video again they seem out of touch with the rest of the video. Flaunting rank is a stupid thing, at least we can agree on that. I don't think I ever mentioned my PvP rank in this thread or the video. And if DPS numbers are the metric by which you're judging a player then you're sorely mistaken. The player could be defending a node or they could be going for objectives: Things that matter. Impale isn't the worst thing ever, I think more the issue with vengeance is that it's supposed to have really nice synergy with ravage but is unable to in both PvE and PvE due to mobility and animation issues on the third tick. Ravage hits REALLY hard and the second tick (as far as I've seen at least) seems to be guaranteed to crit. Making it usable on the move would give the spec a lot of leeway, but that's just a bandaid fix. I personally prefer vengeance over Rage in terms of fun factor since there's more to do (albiet because you're almost forced to).

It's a brutal curve, but one that forces you to adapt and play to your strengths. You get gear quickly enough. A tip if I may, queue with a group, it always helps to have people whom you can rely on to do things with you.

That was the bit with vengeance, there's one other clip further ahead in the movie with it as well. Otherwise, the rest is just rage segments. The segment from ~2:15-3:00 has me fight a full BM geared sorc twice. The first time with adrenals I essentially burst him from 100-0, the second time (right after he spawns and has a light opener on me) I get him just as low in almost the same amount of time. Force Scream hits hard too, and obliterate can hit moderately hard and the final tick on crush crits for a decent bit too. People just don't itemize right.

In a larger group PvP situation you can set up the attack easily. Sure people can see the setup for a rage burst, but them reacting to it is another thing entirely. In addition, freighter relay isn't the staple attack for a sniper, Smash is and it's a lot easier to set up than people give it credit for. I have no clue *** you're trying to say here... but you don't "tri-spec" as rage. You go 3/7/31 or 2/8/31. If you go on later into the video I fight a full BM sorc whom I crit for 6.2k (with adrenals sure) and then later on for 4.9k (without adrenals). After having spoken to full BM properly itemized (surge/power) operatives post-nerf, their highest crits (single target) have been ~4.3k, I hit 4.8k regularly on an AoE attack.

Hey guys, Jorrus here from Belgoth's Beacon. I recently threw together a quick conglomeration of clips (nothing special mind you) showcasing some clips from Rage and Vengeance PvP. http://bit.ly/AbMkO8 While there are definitely more rage clips in there, next week's installment will have far more vengeance clips to compensate. I will also release a version with commentary later this week for those that are interested. Normally, I would not post a mirror thread like this in the PvP forum, however, I felt that the amount of QQ for juggernauts regarding the state of the class was just reaching abysmal levels. In this video I demonstrate that not only can juggernauts put dents into well-geared players but GROUPS of well-geared players while playing rage (even AoE taunt up in some clips). I also have a few clips of vengeance thrown in here and there to show that the spec isn't completely useless. I have a feeling that juggernauts may be the next thing to hit the nerf block soon enough... AoE 5k crits might just be a *bit* too strong. Just don't touch vengeance bioware -_-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4 For your consideration

Hey guys, Jorrus here from Belgoth’s Beacon. I recently threw together a quick conglomeration of clips (nothing special mind you) showcasing some clips from Rage and Vengeance PvP that you can watch in the link below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4&feature=youtu.be While there are definitely more rage clips in there, next week’s installment will have far more vengeance clips to compensate. I will also release a version with commentary later this week for those that are interested. As to which spec I feel is better, I do feel that with the current level of damage Rage has in group situations (even those in controlled environments with smarter players/groups) it does do slightly better. Vengeance is NOT, however, garbage and can certainly put a dent in players and is my personal favorite of the three specs. I have a feeling that nasty things will be done to rage soon enough though so those that like it might want to try to get a feel for it at some point if things get too harsh (Read: operative nerf) If you liked what you saw, you’re more than welcome to watch me stream over at twitch.tv/lakhiz I don’t have a regular stream schedule but I stream often enough that everyone can have a chance to watch. I’m upgrading my hardware soon so I’ll have an even higher quality stream with full-time commentary as always

Columi gear is FINE for PvP if you have enough expertise. Expertise is a wasted stat in PvE, don't pretend like it's useful. A player in full champion gear will not clear nightmare Soa, similarly a player in full columi shouldn't expect to be a God in PvP.

The ENTIRETY of the issue with PvE/PvP gear disparity is due simply to the fact that there was no initial tierization (can't believe I used that as a word) between columni and tionese and champions/centurion gear. Had people been routed to gear in appropriate tiers then there would have been no issue. Let me dispel a myth that seems to be going around: Columni gear IS better than Champion gear for PvE: Straight up, it has more stats, more endurance etc. All bioware REALLY needs to do (and they're taking steps to do this) is to create a system where gearing for PvP and PvE is tiered properly so that players do not effectively skip them to reach the top tiers. The whole "ZOMG PVP GEAR IS GETTING NERFED FML" is sensationalist BS that someone with the attention span of a 13 year old extrapolated without reading into the issue. Game developers are NOT retarded, get your head out of your *** and stop thinking that bioware's got it in for you. They want their game to succeed just as much as you do.

You have to realize that in long videos, people tend to jump around a lot and thus your better clips (the ones you want people to recognize you for) get lost because people have VERY selective attention spans. Create a video that highlights your best play and put it up, that's the best way to approach it. A 5-7 video of all highlights has an effectively higher concentration of good and viewable clips than a 45 minute monster.

bumpity bump

Orange belt best belt. 108 str, 74 power 69 endurance sorry rakata but this **** is *********** amazing.

I really wish people in this thread would stop touting one spec as "definitely better" than the other, they're BOTH perfectly viable. Rage has animation delay issues, sure, but the smart player compensates for those and adapts. Vengeance has low damage against tanks so... switch off tanks? Here are a pair of SS from the same day. http://imgur.com/a/wzcPV The one with 14 medals is as rage, the other is as vengeance. Quite frankly, the only difference between those games was that I threw up guard on a friend near the end of the game to prevent people from grabbing it, otherwise, had the game gone longer as vengeance, I likely would have had 12 medals (no 5k crit or healing medal which rage CAN get) and I would have had far more damage in the 2 minutes of remaining game time. To be frank, the fact that there are flaws in both specs is what makes the choices in them beautiful, you can't expect for there to be a "perfect" spec in an MMO, things just don't work that way. What you can do is accept the tools that both specs have, pick the one that you like, and play the game. That's all. Also a shameless plug, if you want to see some rage shenanigans and some vengeance tryharding, I stream every day at http://www.twitch.tv/lakhiz Here's a preview of some of my shenanigans: Me going *** at rage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYJJdrfZdEY&context=C3403705ADOEgsToPDskJye8p28xCy4EjYLjkZVEub Vengeance Fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PAlEnoA1hk&feature=related (posted earlier in the thread)

=P, thanks