Along with TOR first and foremost, We're also still recrutiing for our other chapters, Wow and Wildstar raiding & pvp on both

In my dps offset (all comm 78 gear no set pieces etc) I'm doing 2960ish parses so you're about right. I run about 400 crit, 99.7% accuacy and the rest power and only have obroan relics to use atm. Having properly weighted mods/enhancements (from token drops/crafted) as well as set bonuses and the right amount of crit vs power vs accuracy is going to really add up. IMo you're pretty close to where you should be for your current gear. On that note however that really is not at all bad if you can maintain it. Normally I tank but a few fights we didnt need 2 tanks on (NiM thrasher, NiM Draxis) etc I went to deception and was up with some of our top dpsers (top on thrashers, 3rd on draxis) so you should be fine. Mastery of the mechanics, positioning and keeping your dps uptime as much as possible will be the real factors.

Best way to make a point on the internet, throw in a good ad hominem!

^This. Jugs were already one of the best second only to PTs, and their team utility is amazing with push aoe mezz and intercedes setting up global windows. Tanking stats, including shield/absorb are extremely devalued in the current state of pvp, cooldowns, team utility and proactive guard swapping is what matters, just head on over to the tanking subsection before making claims like that. The biggest problem I see with enraged defense is the heal could be a bit less and it would be great for dps Jugs. you throw that on a tank jug with all their other great dcds and suddenly it's way too strong. It should not have been a blanket change for all three specs imo.

like most have said stay in surging for 90%, even most times in huttball you're better off just killing whoever is bothering the ball carrier and taunting them in surging. There are rare instances when im out of range of the ball carrier and I will swap to dark to guard them, but its very rare. also if you are carrying the ball (which really is not your place as deception, but objectives come first) it doesn't hurt to have the extra survivability until you can pass it off.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know a site or program that can compile say 5~10 parse logs into a single log and display it all? Torparse does this somewhat but a maximum of 30minutes which is only 5 parses.

Universal binds: v-interupt x-force run c-overload alt+`=spike `=assassinate 12 on naga mouse=stealth z=combat stealth e=mind trap 1=saber strike 2=shock 3=voltaic/thrash 5=maul 6=force lightning alt+1=over charge saber alt+2=electrocute alt+3=deflection enter on numpad = shroud, bound to 9 on naga h=out of combat heal b=blackout 7 on naga=crushing darkness 8 on naga is homekey/push to talk Deception specific 4=discharge f=low slash 10 on naga=adrenal 11 on naga=recklessness Darkness specific 4=wither f=force pull 11 on naga=dark ward g=guard t=taunt y=aoe taunt both taunts bound to alt+10/11 on naga as well Madness I just make F my deathfield cast

Use fortitude augments

Eh my guild made me dps instead of tank last night for a bit hate@sin dps -_- Saereth 2985.67 DPS ~ Guild: Reign 5/37/5 Deception - 5'34.9s http://www.torparse.com/a/635602

I can see your logic with explotive on mauls/assassinates sub 30. I should specify though, in regards to spike, I play on a pvp enabled server so, having spike for your pveing 90% of the time isnt a crutch, its mandatory.

No one is advocating using in operations, for general pve its very useful. (Although I personally still spec it on dp trash in case of a missed stun) This is really such a small value it makes little difference in arguing but we'll look at it with you I parse 55.7 dps average thrash w/thrashing blades and 54.285 dps with exploitive strikes If parses aren't good enough, break it down to math Lets say 50DPS base 50*.06 (From thrashing bladeS)=53 DPS vs (and this assumes you actually do get reliable procs and manage 100% uptime on energize) 2 points in exploitive (6% crit * 51% surge) = 51.53dps Nah not really, This is a really nice cherry picked example though, in general, it seriously is a non issue of force management. Even in this particular example you're going into that phase with full force, 3 stacks of HD and usually an energize proc ready to go. I have literally never forced out during that burn, and my guild has several videos of those kills on both 8 and 16 Man where you can clearly see my resource bar, then you can also go check our parses on tor parse if you're really not convinced. I honestly appreciate you trying to disseminate accurate information, it really is crucial to the community to help new players. Bottom line however the guy was asking about fighting a couple heroic mobs, something where out of combat stealth would benefit him greatly. If you wanted to get down to brass tacks, there's no reason to take assassin shelter for that scenario either.

dont listen to all that hate on spike in combat, it's extremely useful in pvp and pve except for actual operation bosses. Even in some operation fights the extra interrupt for adds is helpful, just depends on what you're going to be doing. In general there isn't much else I'd rather spend that one point on. With a build like http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rfroddfdGdRZcMZb.3 I suppose you could take another 1% end or some torment but "meh" , neither is all that useful as 1% seldom makes the difference in any fight and force is a non issue with lightning recovery/blood of the sith.

Holy hell Makonut that's brilliant! sooo it'll never happen. On grinding out multiple sets of gear I really agree there, even if we had to grind for a seperate offhand thats fine, but grinding two entire sets and paying to fully kit/augment both sets is harsh.

Well, this is something that's bothered me for a very long time so here are some of my thoughts to throw into the hat; If shields worked on crits it would be a big help, but the problem is pretty much every class (except a few like MM sniper) have ways to just bypass all tanking stats. Those classes that can't bypass tanking stats would be in an even weaker position in PVP, while the bypassing classes remain just as strong. You've got upwards of 25% internal/elemental bypassing every last bit of tanking stats including our armor. You've got a weighted global crit rate of almost 33% with insta critting abilities, which are completely unshielded, in addition to the internal/elemental unshielded, and then on top of that only 30% of the incoming damage calculates defense at all besides glances. So what we wind up with is the same stat budget as DPS classes, but our stats are FAR less effective. When we're looking at those defensive stats realistically offering us less than a 1-3 ratio in "actual" defense we really do find ourselves at a disadvantage not using dps stats. As it stands tanking stats need to have a much higher pool on pvp gear, or classes need less abilities that instantly bypass those tanking stats. Our inability to scale with our tanking stats is also an issue. I suppose we could take a page out of League of legends and go rammus style, and give us abilities that scale with tanking stats in tanking stance like additional damage for sin tanks with shield/abs counting towards bonus damage or adding in new mechanics that scale off those stats. The idea of tanking gear sets having the same armor values as non tanking gear sets its a bit of an issue as well since the armor bonuses are gained from the tanking tree, you wind up with the same armor value even in DPS gear, it just promotes the situation we're in. Some ideas I found really interesting while playing wildstar,(I know its not for everyone, don't hate) not sure what would or wouldn't work in TOR but there is some good stuff here, These are all tank abilities; They can bring An Aoe cleanse and which pulses some damage per debuff cleansed They can create a field on the ground that lowers enemy resource generation and pulses low amounts of damage Sentinel ability allows you to temporarily transfer some of your armor to another group member Empower chain is a blood thirst like ability for you and a target, so in this respect the tank not only guards/taunts and offers defensives but they have the offensive utility to offer the group as well. Their own damage may not be high but they bring the utility to increase overall group damage. All threat is transferred to your chain target, so not something you'd be using in pve. Defense grid creates an aoe shield 10m that reduces all damage by 20%, similar to a smaller sniper bubble on a minute cooldown Volatile injection basically works as an anti-surge, you take reduced damage from critical hits Repair bot (Could work for pt) Creates a small bot that creates a shield to nearby allies, similar to the aoe taunt shield jugs get Recursive matrix creates a field that lowers the duration of all CCs by 30% and increases defenses by 5% Sin AOE taunt could grant Blood thirst for an 8s buff that grants your group life steal on hit vs enemy players only The basic "theme" here is the tank has plenty of utility that they actively use on cooldowns that arent 2~3 minutes each. Some of these could be used with zero impact on PVE, while im sure a few of them like the empowered chain wouldnt work or would need additional pve balances etc. etc. At any rate im not holding my breath for new utility abilities but those are some nice ideas. I like the possibility someone mentioned of taunts lowering healing as well, so you have the utility choice of either reducing enemy damage or enemy healing. As essentially summarized in KBN's original post, the problems limiting viability are; 1) Our tanking stats are tremendously devalued against the damage types we encounter in pvp 2) Our overall utility vs the damage we bring as full tank is lacking, the closest tank in this department being the jug with aoe shield and intercede.

when we used to have self heals they were pretty damn easy. They are more difficult now especially in your gear level. Right off your defense is a bit high and your absorb should be much higher, but you shouldn't need to min/max for a fight like that. Without seeing you fight or a log its hard to guess what may be wrong but you need to space out your defensives. Keep dark ward up always, use shroud when they use their force attacks, and also be aware of the pulsing aoe they leave on the ground, dont stand in that. Use deflection for preventing some of their melee attacks. Use medpacks and a stim. You should be able to kill them at your level. As for the Jug, we dont know what gear/spec/etc they were running so its hard to say. general rotation is shock/wither/thrash fishing for energize procs, hit recklessness if you get an energyize proc shock, full channel lightning at 3 stacks of harnessed darkness to keep your dark protection stacks up. Maul as you get conspirator cloak procs, rinse and repeat and then use assassinate once they are below 30%. I've done this with ashara and talos around your gear level and both worked ok. make sure your companions have gear as well. You shouldnt even need your heroic moments for this tbh.

This should be pretty close to BIS, the crit rating could vary slightly http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/67ce22cd-2916-482f-80b8-1c5ea469344d you need melee accuracy to 100%, crit to around 450+ rating and then the rest power. Hope that helps! If you're planning on raiding though I will warn you that you're going to have your work cut out for you atm to reach numbers that will warrant bringing you over any other dps class.

Yeah that walk of shame -_- i'm hoping we will but not as many are enthused about 8-Man NiM runs as I am in Reign, but since you can only make one attempt per week anyway I guess we'll see what we can schedule Reviewing strats for the rest of SnV right now, your fights will be a big help for sure! Thrasher and Styrak look like the most "fun".

Will try to get some guys from Reign to come, not sure who all will be on then though, who is the point of contact for organizing Imp side?

Yay us... but seriously *** bioware, the damage difference between our 8 and 16 kills on the tanks was stupid, check out the incoming for the two for phase 1: 8-Man http://www.torparse.com/a/629584/time/1395967863/1395968043/0/Damage+Taken 1322dps 16-Man http://www.torparse.com/a/629581/time/1395972369/1395972549/0/Damage+Taken 3114.78dps It was such an extreme difference on 8 our healers help dps and we hardly use defensive, on 16 we use every defensive on cd and if the healers get a string of non crits the tank would wind up dangerously low. I love the mechanics coming in NiM, and adding more mechanics to fights is what I look forward to but I kinda hope the new NiM 16 doesnt just follow the same trend of "double people, double damage on tanks".. kind of frustrating at times -_- We'll start SnV next week, we're comin for you Styrak!!! (Yeah that's not gonna happen anytime soon, but good luck to all of us smashing our face against those fights )

More to the point here, does it give points to your team?

Lol sounds about right

Simple question really, do kills from the explosion in hypergate count, towards the score or your personal kill count, if you tagged the enemy before it killed them. Can't seem to find an official answer about this anywhere so if someone has a link or some definitive test done would be appreciated. I've always suspected it does not but I can't find anything solid to backup that assertion.

Personally I take 3 endurance on my sin instead of thrashing blades. With blood of the sith and lightning recovery I dont have any force issues and an extra 1200 health can (and has) been the difference between a wipe or not in NiM progression.

You actually can parry through guard. Have a carnage marauder goto town on your guarded target with massacres/ravages, pop saberward/deflection/etc and watch the parries fly. So Defense is -useful- but according to damage profiles collected we're only seeing about 9% of the overall damage being from melee/ranged attacks that could actually be defended against. So essentially even if you pump 1000 defense points into your gear, forgoing all other stats that you could have used instead, you can expect to increase your survivability by about 2.5% yay tanking stats!

Just wanted to thow out a thanks for putting this all together, keep up the great work!