I dunno, they're bleeding subs after all. Maybe nerfing Sorc pissed off a huge part of their subscriber base, you don't see many Sorc in WZs now after all. I don't think people like re-rolling as much as you think. It's one thing to re-roll alts for fun as a break from your main, it's another to re-roll alts because you don't like playing your main anymore at all and want to PVP with another class. For the latter, you will likely not level it all the way up and just quit PVP, for the former you still go back to your main and play that a lot. The thing is I don't think you can ever get those subs back either. They've bungled many things so it's hard to be sure exactly what sent so much of their sub base away. Could be the nerfs, could be the lack of 8 man rateds, could be marauders, could be premades rolling PUGs, or maybe it's a combination of things. It's too bad they won't share the unsubscriber comments with us, and just close threads that mention reasons for people quitting for PVP. There is a big thread for unsub in general I think that you can look over to get general opinions, and a lot of people mention the lack of 8 man rateds as well as poor balance and reduced TTK.

I can complete a weekly in a day (12-15 matches max). But this depends entirely on server and who your teammates and opponents are. We should be encouraging PVP and making it more accessible. I still believe gear should just be handed out to everyone so that skill takes over, but the scrubby people that PVP in this game know they'll never win a match if that were the case, so we get this scrubby player's paradise instead.

lol yep. I posted this exact thing in beta, that compromising between two sides just makes nobody satisfied. The simple solution was 8 man queuing vs. solo queuing. If you can't get 7 other people together then you have to go solo. It should be no problem to get a group of 8 because any active PVP guild will have at least that many. Then you just ramp up rewards a bit to balance out less queue pops, and put in a ranking system that is visible to everyone that clicks on warzone and then clicks on group queue (which is as I wrote only 8 man). The only people that will ***** about that are the people that can only get 2 or 3 people together, but those people can just solo queue since that's such a small group anyway. The vast majority of PVPers fall into either solo or 8 man groups, anything in between doesn't really make any sense anyway. But the 8 man queue should always have been cross server, that way you actually get a true ranking, plus it would rank the servers, and then the guilds in each server. Say one server had 3 of the top 5 PVP premade groups, now all of a sudden arguing on the forums when your server doesn't even have a top 30 makes you just look stupid. Solo queue should have always just been for the server only. Then when you wanted the rank and to expand your horizons you take the players you've become familiar with and move into the 8 man xserver PVP. I proposed this way back in beta and got shot down. I still believe this would have worked. GW2 has solo and premade queues separated, I know that much.

Maybe yours don't, my guild before it died always had class balance/synergy for teams. We always had tank, DPS and healers. Of course without 8v8 rateds in 1.2, or maybe some other reason I don't know, everyone quit. If the queue time is too long for queuing premade, just suck it up and solo queue. Good players can succeed in both and don't need a team to carry them (against PUGs no less). Yeah you might lose a bit more in solo queue, but that's what makes it more fun. In premades I win 99%, in solo I win 75%. If you find yourself losing a lot more...well it's probably you, you're the common denominator after all. I wonder what my win rate would be as a PUG if I didn't have to face premades.

7 days for me. And I doubt I will log in at any point during that time.

50 PVP is pretty much just gear grind and farming PUGs. The expertise is so wonky that it lets you put up pretty big numbers as well, but the HPs are inflated too so unless you just like making big numbers it's not really that much different. The reason why people in this thread are trying to get you to level to 50 is they need people to play against. Most people quit playing 50 after awhile because it's kind of dumb. That's also why Bioware gave the free month, there are actually several articles about it and they admit 50s don't log into the game that much. You should be able to find it at the usual places or google it. After you get 1 50 geared up though, you'll never want to gear up another one most likely. But you'll also probably realize how poor the PVP in this game is, so you won't want to play much in the pre-50 PVP. My advice is if you are enjoying pre-50, just stick around and play it for as long as you can. Try out several classes at once and play them all heavily in PVP. After about level 20 or so most classes are fairly competitive with each other thanks to bolstering, and if you are a skilled player, since pre-50 is mostly just skill based. People that don't have skill and need to have advantages of course hate pre-50 as a result, because they are awful at it. If you're good at pre-50 you're going to be good at 50 too, just you'll need the gear. You can't really compete with Recruit, but full BM you will at least be sort of competitive. I'm not sure now anymore since I'm mostly WH, and it does seem like I'm virtually invincible against a lot of players...they might be full BM and the gap just be too big for WH (mine is also fairly optimized, and with augments on most of my slots, including weapon).

I won a 3v8 on CW once. Eventually we got the remaining players, but for the first several minutes it was just us 3. 2 people came in, 1 called us a loser, and both of them dropped. I went left and mauled the two people there and capped. My teammates faked mid and then went E. Eventually they capped. People coming in saw that we had 2 to the opponents 1, so they started to stay. By the time the opposing side started launching offensives against us, our backup got in and we managed to hold, and win. I think we even got a 3 cap. I didn't get an MVP vote though. This really only worked because the opposing side really sucked though, and then I think half of them quit on the 2 cap. If they only knew 1 lone person was holding one side and there was no way I'd get backup. Fortunately with the sides you can just hop back onto a speeder and stop caps repeatedly, almost no matter how badly you're outnumbered. In mid you can actually do that too sometimes, spawn, speeder, stop cap, die, repeat.

Or you could play an MMO like GW2, which has separate queues for premade and PUG. I don't really play MMOs, but I hear WoW has separate queues too, and I know that's the biggest one. Seems like you do have the option in other games, just not this one. But either way, I generally take the position that if you don't like premades vs PUGs in swtor it's better just to unsub. The devs aren't going to separate the queues or give us rated anytime soon, so sticking around expecting them to actually change is kinda dumb.

You don't need a thread like this, just write it when you unsub. I unsubbed with a WH toon. I don't remember the exact level since it's been awhile, but 72ish or so most likely. I unsubbed because the game is boring, I don't like the balance changes and design changes, premades are still in the same queue as PUGs, we didn't get 8 man rateds, and although they finally started banning hackers, its too little too late. It would take a lot to make me re-subscribe, I doubt it.

But nobody on these forums ever gets killed. It's just one time, in band camp, they heard somebody got killed by that class. It certainly wasn't them dying, because they can beat every class easily. They altruistically are seeking better balance, to help the masses play you see.

There were lots of long threads with people ************ about games ending early, claiming that people were exploiting wzs to gain levels quickly and get a lot of comms. Never mind that Bioware debunked those claims. On early release, people insisted there were level 50s running around 2 days into early release because of this. These people were hysterical and there were plenty of threads about it, and the threads got really long. The devs basically just flat out called the people making those claims liars, I personally thought they were probably Blizzard employees or trolls. At any rate, the community outcry was apparently loud enough that Bioware listened to it. Along with nerfing Sorc/Sage I guess, and the other design decisions in 1.2. The community is absolutely atrocious, and Bioware seems to listen to the dumbest people when deciding balance and design. I don't know whether those people that were ************ are still playing or if they're happy with what's going on now. Maybe they are. Shrug, that's an MMO for you.

Manaan, no question. And the starting city should be absolutely huge. Selkath neutrality laws could be in place so that both sides can't fight each other, but they have distinct sides too. Let me explore the are around there, put in a few mini games, maybe a few unique vendors, and a few flashpoints. Instead of everyone sitting on the Fleet, let all of us, Empire and Republic, want to spend our time on the new planet. And of course, that will be only one small part of it. Most of the quests and such will occur outside of the city, or on docks or something, where we can have OPVP, or rather not really open, since we will have to do it away from the eyes of the Selkath. Port cities can frequently be very beautiful. Naval bases are always very nice because they're located in ports. A lot of video games have done a great job with these areas. There is just something about being next to all that water that can make everything peaceful and calm, and it does translate into a video game too. I likely won't be subscribed whenever this actually gets done. But it would probably make me want to resubscribe just so I can enjoy the world and really experience it. We got a taste of it in KOTOR, SWTOR could finally give us the main course.

Not anytime soon, no. They only nerf operatives every patch. They've stated they like where PVP balance is right now and that they don't see any problems with it. The last time they said that, it was about Sorc/Sage, and we all know that nerf didn't come until 1.2, a good 5-6 months after launch (more time if you count beta testing). If Marauders will be nerfed, I wouldn't expect it until maybe the end of the year, at the earliest. By then though this game will likely be F2P so it probably won't be a big deal.

How's that different from this game, except that they introduce new bugs with patches and remove content?

Do F2P games have weekly maintenance downtime? Just asking...

That is what I was wondering too.

I do, which just kills your argument and credibility. I drop plenty of times when I'm solo queuing and get stuck with a premade. If I wanted to play with a premade I'd just join an active premade guild and queue with them, not solo queue. A lot of PUGs absolutely despise premades, because so many premades are arrogant and don't understand how to play as a team, but also aren't good enough to actually carry the game by themselves either. Most PUGs don't want to put much effort in when a premade will vote each other MVP and talk down to them no matter what happens. At least on the Fatman, a lot of the time solo Republic PUGs are better than premade Republic groups. I'm sure the Imps feel the same way, but they have 2-3 good premade groups, but from what I hear from Imps and from what I know from my own Imp toons, they exhibit that negative behavior I mentioned above, so it wouldn't surprise me if most Imps don't want to group with them either. And as a general piece of advice, you should almost never use a universal. All it takes is one example to disprove it. And then you look rather foolish.

That's not true. Even in a high pop server like The Fatman it usually matches premades vs PUGs. Usually 2 premades against a full PUG. There's another thread somewhere that discusses how premades are being jumped to the front of the queue, while PUGs are just left on the sidelines. It does seem like the queue system prefers to match PUGs against premades at least to me. I've extensively run premades of my own, and then when my guild died because rateds were pulled from 1.2, I extensively solo queued while keeping tabs on friends lists and /who to see the games that were going on. The only times it seems to match PUG vs PUG is if there are no premades queuing.

What is the point of your post. Do you want someone to pat you on the head and say "there there, you're better than those other people?" Why pay $15 a month to make strawman arguments and rage at people?

They gave pretty much everyone a free month and still lost 25% in the past few months. It will be interesting to see what will happen in about a week and a half, when the free month expires for many people.

The only reason Fatman looks constant is the massive amount of people that re-roll onto it. You see it here on the forums constantly, everyone re-rolls to Fatman. Imagine if that wasn't happening? Fatman has the same attrition rates as the other servers. The game has systemic underlying failures, even if you merged down to 6 servers you'd still have massive attrition. Since there wouldn't even be re-rollers it would be even worse. Bioware needs to fix the issues with this game. If they want to stick their fingers in their ear and ignore the players complaints, they won't have a player base left.

lol it's funny you say that now, because I remember arguing with you about how effective that ability is offensively. I'm just going to chalk that up to us just misunderstanding each other in the past though. Marauders are unquestionably a strong class and allow skilled players to perform better. Some people call that a higher skill cap. I consider the skill cap for this game low across the board so I look at it more as versatility and having options to use. Maybe it's the same thing to people, I just know I can do more with a Marauder than I can with a Sage or a Commando or even a Vanguard. I'm still working on my Operative so I have no opinion on that really, but right now I still feel like my Operative does have some nice options too. You give good players options and they will find a way to make them work, and they'll perform well. You take those options away and it's harder to really out perform because you just can't really do anything differently than everyone else. The game is simple enough as it is, so what little complexity there is to some classes really makes a big difference. Bioware's current design philosophy appears to be to REMOVE options and make all the classes homogenous. Not only is that boring, but it removes what little skill there is more and more. Hence why, although I do think Marauders are one of the stronger classes, I have no faith in Bioware actually bringing classes to tighter balance because I know their solution will be to just destroy the class. TLDR: Marauders are strong because they have options, where other classes do not. Whether it's OPed or not is moot because Bioware's "balancing" would just make the game more boring, rather than improving other classes to make them more fun, so crying for a nerf probably wouldn't even help.

Nobody really cares about your scrubby premade. The complaints are against the good premades, the ones that are geared up, have great team composition, good players, and excellent coordination from using voice comm correctly. On the Fatman server, Republic PUGs routinely crush Imp premades---except for 2 premades. A PUG group has a very low chance of overcoming the advantages those two premades have, even though man for man a lot of times Republic PUG groups are putting in 3-4 very good players, usually people in guilds that are just solo queuing for the variety and challenge of getting PUGs to work together. That doesn't mean the PUG group will always win against the other premades or other PUG groups, it just means they can and do win consistently. Once in a blue moon those 2 top premades might lose a match to a PUG group, and then they just turn around and blame the PUGs they are with, in the seemingly rare situation they're not queued with each other. The fact is in general the level of play is very low in this game, and I think most of the premades know they aren't any good either. The bad premades don't want to face the good premades, PUGs don't want to face the good premades either. You're left with maybe 4-5 premades on each server that would actually be competitive with each other, and everybody else just gets farmed by them. With cross server, that will increase a bit, but still I'd bet a lot of people will quit if they're getting farmed by the 20 or so good premades in the entire game. That is why Bioware isn't putting premade vs premade. While it would make a few PUGs happy, it would crush most of the premade base who would just stop playing altogether. While before they could win because most PUGs are so bad that the premade advantage was enough to give them success, if they lose that advantage they'd be exposed and it'd destroy their egos. And I maintain that the premade player base is much larger than the PUG player base, so if Bioware is looking at it from a business standpoint, it's far better to keep the average premade player happy and subscribed by feeding them crappy PUGs that will come and go.

I don't think there will be any nerfs to anyone anytime soon. Bioware is happy with the balance right now. Also I don't know that I want to see them try to change the balance, as rather than fixing balance Bioware only makes classes boring to play. How does anybody win when Bioware just removes classes from the fun pool? I'd rather have broken but fun PVP than allegedly balanced and boring PVP. Honestly I think that's the real issue. At least that's what it is for me. I'm effective with every class, but some of them are just more FUN to play than others. For a skilled player, Marauder is probably the most fun class because it gives you the most variety and versatility and so it winds up being the most fun to play. Also I came to realize that I just don't like MMOs. I bet the majority of people complaining are the same way but they just don't realize it yet. There's nothing wrong with moving on and playing something you do enjoy, or not even playing games at all. Personally I love reading and watching sports/movies. You don't have enough time in the day to do everything so you need to prioritize what you do want to do, and you should always do what you enjoy the most and what is best for you.

Solo queuers are in the huge minority. I don't believe that 75% number people throw around here, honestly if 75% of people were PUGs, and they were just getting beat on, I don't think there would be any queues and I don't think you'd see the universal support for premades that we always see on the forums. Everyone on the forums always mentions their premades, not solo queuing. I think it's probably more that 75% of people are in premades, and only 25% solo queue. Yes maybe occasionally some people in premades solo queue, but they don't care because they are usually in premades so when they're in solo queue it isn't a big deal. I don't play MMOs usually. I played WoW for about 2 months and hated it, and gave SWTOR a chance because of Bioware but I don't really like this either. None of my real life friends play MMOs, some did for a short period but everyone has dropped it and the majority really seem to hate the genre. For MMOs you really need to have a group of friends that like playing the game and you need to play with them, otherwise you're wasting your time. Now when I play games, I generally am not going to just play with friends. When I meet up with friends it's usually to play sports, watch sports, drink or otherwise hang out in person. We don't really play games. The exception is for a few I used to play competitive games, like fighting games or RTS. Several of my friends have mentioned DIablo 3 recently so that's another option for me to play. I've never been a fan of voice comm with strangers or even with friends, I'm just not a guy that talks on the phone much and neither are any of my friends. I'm a guy so that isn't really rare, most guys generally only talk to girls on the phone, but even girls these days are apt to send texts rather than make phone calls. Regardless, it's not something I'm interested in just to play an MMO, not when other genres don't need it at all. So I realized that MMOs just aren't for me. Complaining to get the genre changed is just silly. I've made several complaints recently about the game but I think they all boil down to me just not liking the genre. You can't expect an entire genre to change for you, there are so many other options for people to enjoy that you definitely don't even need it anyway, instead people should go play something they do enjoy. Since I'm big on skill based play and not gear progression, and for games to be of equal footing and in general also one on one play rather than team play, for me fighting games, strategy and RTS make a lot of sense. A lot of other people like a team aspect, either PUG or premade, and for them both FPS and RTS can make a lot of sense. There's even racing games or a ton of other options, just got to find something you enjoy. TLDR: It's not premades vs solo at all, it's the genre. If you don't enjoy it, just play a different one! The genre isn't going to change and you won't suddenly enjoy it even if they tried to change it.