TiTaNsFaN
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I am going to speak to PvP Op performance, because that is where my experience lies. I know that the OP is primarily worried about PvE Op performance, but because he also mentioned PvP, this is fair game for discussion.
First of all, you need to make sure you are rolling with the right spec for PvP. There are a lot of different theories going around this forum about which spec is optimal. As I see it, here is the core 34 points you need in every Concealment spec (also note that I am talking about Concealment Ops, not Lethality ones. Again, this is where my expertise is).
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGGM0ddRbGR.1
Concealment Op base 34 point distribution
A few notes on talents:
Imperial Education - 3 points: Huge boost to damage, crit, surge, healing, etc. You can't pass up on this.
Imperial Brew - 3 points: Ops have a unique edge over Sins/Shadows because we have a better heavy armor matchup. A big part of this is our AB DOT and our Dart DOT. Brew guarantees that you get the most out of these brutal poison effects. Remember, internal damage is not mitigated by armor.
Survival Training - 2+ points: Over the course of a fight, especially with Revitalizers up and Kolto Injection getting popped behind pillars, this whopping self heal bonus will help so much more than will 4% bonus Endurance. This is especially true if you benefit from a team/guild healer who tosses down heals or HOTS on you.
I am happy to discuss any other specifics of that core build, if there are any questions. As to the remaining 7 points, you have a variety of options. Here are some talents that I recommend you look into.
Incisive Action - 2 Points: I really think this skill is too good to pass up in WZs. Remember, PVP is NOT just a slugfest or deathmatch. PvP is about objectives. Incisive Action gives you a lot of staying power in defending objectives and pressing an attack. It also lets you keep Stim Boost up at basically all times, which means you never have to waste your first TA proc after a HS on SB. In a straight up 1v1, using Flash to give you a healing window is absolutely brutal with 2 points of IA. You can pop 2 Injections and 2 Infusions, and still have time to get behind an enemy to instantly Backstab with AB. Or you you can just fire off 4 Injections. Remember, you need to protect objectives in WZs. This talent gives you a huge improvement in your kiting/healing and general survivability.
Chem Resistant Inlays - 2 Points: Ops have a squishiness problem, and Inlays goes a long way towards helping us in that realm. This talent reduces damage even from otherwise non-reducible damage sources: Internal and Elemental Damage. In a straight up 1v1, you might not notice the difference; if an enemy is pumping out even a measly 1300 DPS right on your head, Inlays won't even give you the ability to survive one extra hit. But if you are taking intermittent damage from AOE, DOTS, indirect attacks, etc., then Inlays really increases your staying power. This is especially true when Revitalizers are active and when you can drop Injections on yourself.
If you talent these abilities, you would get this build, which is exactly my current build minus 3 points.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGR.1
For those last 3 points, you have some options. I am a huge fan of Precision Instruments, because it makes Sever Tendon basically "free" with a Stim Boost up. This is big if you need to Sever Tendon and dart behind something to heal. It also really pays off in Huttball. The same goes for the Debilitate cost reduction, which helps a lot in 1v1 fights.
Lethality (the talent) is another candidate. It's a great skill that helps out across the board with damage and healing, so it is definitely worth a look. You could also revisit Survival Training, which gives yet another 3% bonus to the awesome Revitalizers.
As a final word of advice, I would avoid Surgical Steadiness in PvP. The threat reduction is wasted, so we don't even need to discuss that; the only reason you would get SS is for the pushback reduction. But if you have ever tried to heal under fire in a WZ, you are probably dead anyway, or going to get smashed by CC and interrupts. This is especially true in 1v1s against PTs and Shadows/Sins. PTs alone have a 6 second interrupt, an AoE stun, and a targeted stun. Shadows/Sins have spike, interrupt, and shock. The only way you are ever going to get a heal off against these guys is with LOS, and if you are using LOS, you don't need pushback reduction.
So in the end, here are two final builds I would recommend. They focus on objective-based WZ gameplay.
(9/32/0) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401rc0MZGIM0ddRbGR.1
(7/31/3) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGRZh.1
On my server, a large one, my Op consistently outperforms Mars/Sents/Shadows/Sins in DPS, and has a lot of objective staying power. Only PTs/Vans tend to rival the damage output. With a good spec and good use of your abilities, you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed.
The final spec you linked is the one I use, minus the chem-resistant inlays for razor edge. This is a great tutorial post, but it doesn't real deal with the central issue, pvp or otherwise. Other classes are objectively better for PvP in this game. The only area in which an operative CAN shine is in 1v1 against SOME (but not all classes, sin tank comes to mind) and this is obviously not useful in a group setting.
Your last line, "you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed," isn't really supported by anything you say. Prove to me that marauders, powertechs, assasins etc. are not superior in any of the ways you described (other than idk, off-healing) and I will agree with you. Otherwise, why operatives may be "adequate" and other adjectives used elsewhere in this thread, they are relegated at best to the red-heaeded step-child role in this mmo. Unfortunately, because of all the backlash against the class early on in the game, it is unlikely they will brought back to competitive viability anytime soon.
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Juggernauts have Sunder + Defensive clicks, even when they are in DPS mode. Sunder is raid utility for the entire group, unless you already have another Juggernaut to apply the Sunder effect. A full stack of Sunder reduces armor by 20%, and with Operation bosses being at 5814 armor at a default 35% reduction. This increases damage by 5% for the entire raid. In a higher tiered raid group, everyone should be putting out ~1400 dps before adrenals, relics, and buffs. Over a five minute duration, that equates to 1,680,000 damage when looking at the four damage dealers. The addition of Sunder provides 84,000 damage, or 21,000 per DPS if all of their moves are checked against armor.
To compare, a Marauder's Blood thirst lasts for 15 seconds, and increases damage by 15% or an additional 12,600 damage during the duration of the move. This will only apply to four people, while the sunder effect will apply to even the Tanks that are in the group. I honestly don't understand why people underestimate the effect of Sunder over time.
Glad to know Operatives are even less useful than I thought... thanks...
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Somehow Operatives are the new Paladins in this game.
Nerf Ret to the ground!
Nerf Holy to the ground!
Deja vu all over again. People won't be content until we all run lethality
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The real fact is that Operatives are perfectly capable of completing all content in the game at the moment, and while they may not be top DPS, they are solidly mid-table. If you want to switch to a FOTM class / spec that is your choice.
"Capable of completing content" is not incentive enough for most hardcore radiers in any mmo. You say operatives are "solidly mid-table;" middle between whom?
Marauders, Powertechs, Sorcerers, Snipers are ahead of us, either by virtue of pure damage output or more constant damage output (gap-closer or ranged.) Anybody who wants to refute me, please show me hard data in top-tier raid gear. I have been running Mox numbers in my guild specifically during all of our Hard Mode Denova clears.
Granted, the numbers are not laughably far from on another, but they are still lower. That, plus ZERO actual raid utility (off-heals should NEVER be necessary, everything else is not raid utility as most raid enemies are cc immune) makes us the least desirable class in the game DPS-wise, except possibly the juggernaut.
So yes, the premise that we are competent to complete the easy content in-game is true. To say that we should be content with that however is nonsensical; the balance is worse now than it was pre-1.2. I shouldn't have to reroll fotm to be competitive.
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This game is bug-ridden and dying kid... don't hold your breath.
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Lemme just leave this hurr.
DPS/Tanks
Tank Sin
Marauder
Sniper
Pyrotech Powertech
Juggernaut
Sorc
Operative
Merc
I'd love to see the Snipers some of you claim to be so effective on your respective servers. None of those exist on my server. You won't convince me that Pyro Powertech is not in the Top 3 at the moment however, if not top 2.
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My counter-argument is that your argument is not fact. Operatives are hard to play, particularly in actual combat situations, but there are still massive variations even on dummy parses. Small mistakes and misconceptions have a big impact on this class while other classes are a bit more forgiving.
In the linked thread, there are Operatives at (or very close to) the 1.5k DPS level which is on par with most other DPS classes that I've seen.
To clarify I can pull ~1450+ on a DUMMY with trinket/ adrenal rotation. This is, of course, in nearly max-level gear. I guarantee you from Mox numbers that other classes can achieve higher numbers particularly in raid situations with more utility.
My argument has yet to be refuted effecively. What does a DPS operative bring to a raid that another class does not do better?
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You are using 3/31/7 which is garbage for pvp, your comment on scouting, puts you beyond the pale for any further discussion, basically you are using a pve spec for pvp and complain about how bleak things look, YOU are the one coming here to whine, but do not even consider taking advice, pathetic, if you do not what other opinions than yours why do you post at all.
You can find threads like the one you started in the forums for all classes, even those that are supposedly "out-damaging" operatives, guess what that indicates...
PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE ON KINRATH SPIDER PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE. I wouldn't mind lol'ing at you in-game. GL with that spec; you're trying so had to increase your survivability, why? Even with all that you are still a glass cannon and squishy. You want to heal mid-fight or pre-fight for an extra TA? Every class has interrupts and stuns, what exactly are you trying to accomplish by forgoing talents that actually increase your burst? I suspect this is a case of small-server syndrome where everyone still around is a bad.
I'm not here to whine. The FACT is our class is out-dpsed in PvE raid environments PERIOD. At the ceiling (everything else being equal) our DPS is LOWER in operation situations than similar DPS classes. Prove me wrong, the threads linked above certainly did not. For the record we were server first HM Denova and I'm rank 78 Warzone.
If you are going to sit there and try and convince me our class is superior numbers-wise and/or Utility-wise to Marauders, Powertechs, Assassins etc. I'm going to ROFLMAO at you all day long.
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and you think that is bad advice?
this game is NOT based on 1v1 combat. it is based on TEAM PLAY. you are a fool if you dont have a healer in your pocket, or a good pvp tank by your side.
lol the old WoW (or insert generic mmo) argument that the game is based around "teamwork" and not 1v1. You people are delusional that there is an semblance of balance in this game.
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Do what the post above suggested and read through that link.
DO IT.
Stop complaining, start killing...
(edit)
For pvp drop you garbage spec and use this:
No waylay or flanking? No 3% crit Lethality? 2 pts in scouting? LOL
To the other poster, my spec is correct and my gear is correct mods/enhancements etc. My DPS is not abysmal, I am not saying that operatives cannot DPS adequately for the level of content we have (we have cleared 8 man HM Denova even b4 the bug fix).
My argument (not really an argument as it is a fact) is that operative DPS is lower than the overwhelming majority of other classes that also have equal or suprior utility to us. So what's the point?
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1. Remarkable players
2. Outstanding players
3. Great players
4. Good players
5. Average players
6. Below average players
7. Bad players
8. Scrubs
Everyone keeps quoting this and I find it hysterial. If you think the classes in this game are remotely balanced to where skill > class limitation you are delusional (or play a maurader more likely.)
Yes, if you are playing bads it doesn't matter what class you are, you will beat them. If however, you are a competitive player against an equally competitive player, you will lose to class mechanics. There is no reason, for example, why a Marauder should EVER lose to a Mercenary for example. This is not a balanced mmo, probably one of the worst balanced since early WoW.
Ironically I think this game was more balanced pre-1.2 than post 1.2.
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So I have come to grips recently that once everyone in my guild is equally geared, there is no way my DPS as an Operative will ever be able to match up to that of my fellow raiders.
It is also blatantly clear that my utility, the little that there is (cleansing, off-healing, lucky vanish-rez?) pale in comparison to that of classes such as the Marauder, or the Sorcerer, or the Sniper etc.
In PvP the situation is... bleak. I will leave it at that. We are thankfully better off than Mercenarys in this aspect however.
I ask fellow operatives, what solution do you have? Bite the bullet and respec heals? Reroll completely? Play Diablo 3? What can I do to enjoy the game now that I am so... unnecessary
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You've gone about this all wrong.
Let's start over.
DPS:
Over Powered:
Marauder - Excellent damage and far too many cool downs to go with it = over powered. I don't think they are crazily over powered, they just need some tweaking. Btw, I can 1v1 these guys (not that easily, but can do it) but having so many fotm rerolls is spoiling the fun for other people I play with
Strong:
Pyrotech - Excellent burst damage, however, lack the defenses the marauder has.
Good:
Sniper - People always think of 1v1 - in a group situation, GOOD snipers are very effective and you get good value out of supporting them with heals/guard etc.
Average:
Sorceror - still has good utility and damage, but they are vulnerable to marauders who are far too powerful at the moment.
Bad:
Concealment operatives - Cludgy mechanics and too many nerfs make this guy non-threatening these days.
Terrible:
Tracer missile mercs are kinda like a sniper, with less damage, easier to interrupt, less resistance to CC, no burst, no interrupts and no actual purpose except as cannon fodder.
Healers:
Over powered:
Operative - not vulernable to interrupts or running out of resources, can heal while moving, has lots of useful cool downs and CC = over powered. There is even a hybrid heals/dps spec that permits them to have decent damage output and still heal quite effectively.
Good:
Merc healers - still ok, but unlike the operative are still some what vulernable to interrupts (not too bad), lack mobility while healing and lack the arsenal of CC available to the operative.
Bad:
Sorc healers - you focus them, they die - the end. They have good utility and healing output, but are so squishy and easy to shutdown as be clearly inferior to the other two healers, except in Huttball where that utility shines.
Tanks:
Strong:
Assassin - I am an assassin, I know this class very well. 1v1, darkness assassin in dps gear is a very tough opponent. They are very useful in a group situation also, however, I don't think they are over powered as Marauders. Why? Assassin heavy groups fail preety badly - however, I've absolutely dominated matches where we have 6 marauders on our team lol.
Average:
"Iron Fist" hybrid powertechs - preety decent mitigation and preety decent damage, decent utility. The assassin trumps the powertech tank-wise for pvp due to simply having more ways to survive longer.
Bad:
Juggernauts spec'd as tanks are inferior to the other two advanced classes - at least, I haven't SEEN an effective one for a long time now. Why? They just hit like a wet noodle, more of a nuisance than a threat.
I approve of this list; less lazy version of my own.
I would however still say that Sorcerers are better (more useful perhaps?) than Snipers when specced correctly. Best knockback and CC in the game imo, the only ranged class with a real ability to kite (not marauder but they are broken anyway) although it may also be a case of having no good snipers on my server specifically.
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Sniper at the bottom? Really?
Not sure if trolling, drunk, or oblivious.
Snipers are destroyed by any melee willing to pay attention to them in this game.
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In order from highest to lowest:
1. Marauders - Best defensive cooldowns in the game make up for lack of immediate burst; back-end damage rivals or superior to any class in the game.
2. Powertechs (Pyro) - Highest Melee DPS output in the game, amazing burst, lacking the cooldowns of the Marauder though.
3. Assasins (Hybrid) - Almost like a marauder with less impressive cooldowns, the assasin can whip out a ton of damage toward the back-end of a fight while also (when specced correctly) being arguably the tankiest DPS in the game. Having a DoT only sorcs and Operative healers can dispell helps too.
4. Sorcerers (DPS) - Ah yes... the sorcerer. Not overpowered anymore (no more perma-cc Hybrid spec) yet still in possession of the best CC and knockback in the game. Infinitely versatile, in the hands of the right player the Sorcerer is one of the best PvP classes in the game. In the hands of the wrong player, he's cannon fodder for the above classes however.
5. Operative (Healer) - It's hard to rank a healer I suppose, and one could arguably put operative healers ahead of sorcerers and assasisns, but at the same time it isn't as if a healer is going to kill either of those classes anyway. Operative healers, with their instant no-cooldown heals, decent CC and vanish are one of the most durable healers in the game, perfect for PvP.
6. Operative (Concealment) - Poor concealment operatives... nobody liked them at launch, and now they find themselves in limbo. Still possesing tremendous burst, they lack the cooldowns or sustained damage potential to really contribute to a team in a unique way not done better by one of the above classes. They can initiate a tremendous gank, but not much else.
7. Juggernauts (Any) - Probably the best ballhandler in Huttball, but recent nerfs have limited the rage tree to a gimmick spec and rendered these guys as purely support runners (aoe cc is great, lots of slow) in objectives.
8. Sorcerer / Mercenary Healers - Tons of interrupts in this game, these guys don't have the instant heals an operative can toss out. Just lack the durability to succeeed consistently, NEED a guard to be effective.
9. Mercenary (DPS) / Sniper - These poor non-force using ranged dps classes... at least the sniper has an interrupt. Could use a complete revamp for PvP viability.
I'd say the balance is somewhere in the middle with sorcerer and operative healers... if we can buff/nerf everything to that level the game would be significantly better. Feel free to share thoughts/opinions.
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"merc dps nerfs"
ahah sorry you made me laugh
lolwat?
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Hard mode isn't meant to be done in anything less than full Rakata.
And even in full Rakata on 8 man with 2 healers and 2 tanks we can down 4 probes.
So I would say its a check to see if your DPS are actually good or not, and a check to see if your probe launcher is fast enough, and another check on top of that to see if you can organize and coordinate well enough to do all that.
Could you confirm what 4 DPS you used for this fight and whether it was prior to the very recent Merc DPS Nerfs?
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We were able to down it tonight; we had 6 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank... It's a really heavy DPS gear check.
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As soon as you place a yellow square start the induction to get a probe droid and spawn one. Don't wait for someone to call for a spawn, the group below needs to always be able to handle rapid probe spawns. It might also help you if you send a DPS class up top with whoever is doing the grid to kill the first add faster, allowing them to spawn the first probe faster. Lastly make sure you aren't wasting DPS on Assassination Droids, just have someone run into them away from the group.
Can any (Rakata geared) class survive the explosion with a sorc shield up? (from running into an assassination droid)
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:eek:Hello SWtoR forumgoers.
I was hoping somebody could give me some tips on helping my raid with Hard Mode Colonel Vorgath.
For whatever reason, we keep hitting an enrage on the turrets (the big ones before the boss fight) which wipes our whole raid. The only completion videos I've seen have all only had to down 3 Probes and disarm 3 bombs in order to make it all the way through.
UNFORTUNATELY, it seems the number of disarms is completely random, from 3 on a lucky run to 5 if you are very unlucky. My raid almost always had 4 miniboss fights minimum, and while we were beating the enrage on those fights we still were unable to make it all the way across before the turrets enraged and killed us.
SO... is this an intentional massive DPS gear check that we need to farm black hole gear for to be able to down 4 minibosses super fast... OR is it completely RNG based in that if we get a lucky grid layout (only 3 disarms) you can progress to the boss and clear.
IS THERE ANYWAY TO GET 3 BOMB DISARMS EVERY TIME? AGHHH FRUSTRATION.
Thanks in advance for any tips.
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The reason why 502 exp with full BiS is ideal is because you need 2p / Matrix cube (no other 2nd trinket comes close to as good) / and the Scorekeeper is so much better then the BM MH it outweighs the extra 51 exp.
Once again, even if you decide not to use the BM Rifle you should use the Field Medic rakata variant instead of Scorekeeper.
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The difference between 500 and 550 is basically choosing an extra pve piece of gear. Now with the expertise crystal being added in I think using the "Scorekeeper" with the expertise crystal would bring you closer to 550. Having said that I think running at 500 is fine, their really isn't much of a difference.
Chose Scorekeeper because it is moddable. This means we can put in the BiS Mod/Enhancement in the weapon. In theory the actual BiS would be a crit orange weapon from Armstech. I am currently working on getting one of these.
I think a lot of people addressed the fact that keeping 30% unbuffed is kind of a feel good area. Allows us to have 2/3 of our backstabs crit w/ talents and 2 pc rakata.
This would again come down to your decision to stack less crit.
Does this include stim? I switched to using the power implants and I get 654 power and 31.36% chance to crit. (No Stim)
Using the other implants I have 552 power / 34.55 crit chance (Again No stim, and not perfectly geared yet).
For those posting stats I'd really be interested to see Crit Chance w/ Tech attacks as well as Total Bonus Damage (for example I am sitting at 714). It would give us a good chance to see what stats people are getting with different gear set ups.
Currently I have full 58 mods, but I am missing 2 of the enhancements. I also have the boots instead of gloves so my cunning is a bit low and my endurance a bit high.
That's with stim and 553 expertise.
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Overall, I think that you undervalue crit here, at least until 30% unbuffed. To each his own, I suppose.
Basing ~550 expertise ideal on this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=242994
and similar ones.
I'm running with 357 surge, so well over the diminishing returns point.
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I disagree with quite a few of your item choices.
1. 550 Expertise is the ideal number to mix around, not 500. It has been theorycrafted on various other threads.
2. Why would you choose Scorekeeper over Battlemaster Field Medic's Rifle or even Project STORM rifle?
3. You're losing over 100 power with those 2 implants. Please show me the stats that say we are at a huge hinderance not having 30% unbuffed since the surge nerf.
4. I use Battlemaster Field Medic's belt, but I think the stat differences are a wash between the two honestly.
With all of those changes I am sitting at 32.52% tech crit chance with self buff and 632 power.
Operative DPS... Useless?
in Scoundrel / Operative
Posted
You didn't say who the other 2 DPS are. The marauder should be out-dpsing you consistently. Who else is in the raid?