Answer a question for me that I've been wanting to ask people for a long *** time while I wasn't playing.... What good is energy when you have no skills to use that energy? A term most people are unaware of is called "CD WALLS" something this class suffered from since before 1.3... when they nerf'd our CD on backstab/backblast. Thus, it forced people to use skills concealment/scrapper spec was NOT designed to use. (We are NOT snipers/gunslingers) Much to people's suprise; there is 1 and only 1 melee damage rotation that is unbeatable in terms of spike... EVEN against people who use explosive probe, Orbital or the double hidden strike opener, and that rotation was nerf'd into the ground with the nerf to backstab's cd when you factor in the compounding consecutive nerfs to this class over the course during that time. To clarify; Once again, I am of the opinion this class does NOT need more utility or survivability; WE NEED DAMAGE! In fact I go so far as to say less survivability in sacrifice for more damage; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's except evasion for the sake of more damage and a reduction in CD timers on some melee skills. I don't even want to be able to use hidden strike out of stealth, WE NEVER NEEDED IT! In my eyes, the logical course of action would be to give concealments their spike damage back, and give lethality high DPS but low spike in combination with utility/survivability I'm fine with lethality being pure ranged, but please for the love of god give concealment it's melee ability back. Again my opinion.

lol I wish we had that problem.

I think your opinion is based on the wrong spec in question here: you are asking for a lethality spec for concealment spec, when there already is one.... If you want to turn lethality into that by all means more power to you. But I started a concealment op in beta with the intention of playing a stealth class that DOES NOT carry a glowstick or shoot a gun. Now you want to take that entire aspect of this class away from them... You have lethality isn't that enough? Deception Assassins were WEAK back in the day and EVERYONE knew it... against ANY class... they got the boost they needed and deserved; Now they are throwing out BIGGER damage than concealment ever did before all the nerf's... But noone has a problem with the fact they do 21000 damage in 3 skills which is the SAME DURATION as a pre-nerf stunlock. And they do it outside of melee range to boot.... Concealments are at least forced to be in melee range. Now I didn't say change stunlock, I said give us our damage back... and back in 1.2 our damage numbers were near perfectly balanced... until 1.3 which broke the class beyond all hope... followed by all the boosts EVERY OTHER DPS spec received. You say, a 1v1 fight is easy? Really now? Then why did concealments get nerf'd? Refer to my signature; It wasn't because they were overpowered... it was because people didn't learn how to fight them in these "EASY" so called 1v1's you talk about. And in a team they were extremely deadly... with the same effectiveness that Sins have now if teamed up... sins are just crazy stupid when paired up with other stealthies. It was easier, to QQ about it on the forums than it was to befriend a concealment/scrapper and practice dueling them to learn how to counter it.... That's what I do when I face someone I can't beat... I ask them to duel over and over and over again... rather they know it or not.. I'm teaching myself how to beat them, beat the spec... what I can do what I can't do... That's what being competative is all about. A long time ago, on my server, I got SO good at this spec, that no one on my server could beat me 1v1 in my own class... and I mean no one regardless of faction.... I was that good at how I played the class. I even destroyed people who used the double hidden strike opener as people called it... and yet NEVER used it myself.... That's what a skilled player does to be the best they can be. I would LET people attack me first, give them the advantage, because I knew how to flip the fight around in my favor... (EVEN THROUGH THE INFAMOUS STUNLOCK) I used to get challenged all the time by scrappers and other concealments.... and I would stay out of stealth, LET them have first strike, then flip the fight around and beat them. The people I trained to play this spec CORRECTLY, I taught them how to flip the fight around, when they don't start off with the advantage. And everyone I taught was on my level of skill with the spec. But due to my experience with it, they still couldn't beat me. Anyone can learn that, if they take the time and put in the effort. That is why some of us concealments/scrappers are as good as we are... because we fight to win by any means necessary. And that's a mentality ONLY COMPETATIVE PVP'ers can maintain. As much as people don't want to admit it... this spec is a PVP spec... with some use in PVE...but at it's core, it's a PVP spec. Bleh, my 2 cents... grain of salt as usual. P.S. just for the record, I did NOT pronounce myself the #1 concealment on my server back in the day, I was nominated for the title by the veteran PVP'ers on the server. And, I wasn't the only one who was on that list as being the best concealment, there was 1 other person as well.

Define regs? You mean pug PVP where people are undergeared? That's how it used to be, and that was the original reason for why the class got nerf'd... Geared people were 1-2 shotting undergeared people, and noone could understand why? (Yet noone complained about smash jugs doing it to mutlples of people 3-5 at a time, and yes smash spec used to hit the same damage numbers then as it does now, except now those numbers are higher than they were before. I even knew a guy back in 1.2 who would hit 8k+ crits on smash as a jug, yet I look at my concealment hitting 1700 damage on hidden strike, I felt impudent against some specs. Not only were they strong offensively but they were very strong defensively. Which I was ok with, but for the love of god give us our damage back is all I'm asking.) It was simple; Get gear, don't get 1 shotted.... ALL PVP in EVERY mmo is virtually the same in that regard. You should NOT expect to destroy someone who outgears you... added to the fact that person may be highly skilled. You can't balance skill you can only balance gear... and that's what Bioware did, while nerf'ing the class into oblivion... Now I can justify some of the nerfs, but most of them I cannot. And because noone thought outside of the box... you have what we have today... a useless spec in PVE, and a gnat spec in PVP. Now that being said however; Let's talk about ranked/rated. You don't walk into a gun fight with a knife. That's what Ranked/rated wz were. A gunfight where people brought a knife. Arenas? I've done many many arenas in more broken pvp systems than this; And I still managed to crush high ranked players with less gear, because as I said before you CANNOT balance skill. And Bioware needs to stop trying to balance skill, and start balancing the classes. Right now this class is an effing joke for balance and everyone knows it. Marauders, lolsmashers, and the new breed of sins/shadows proved that point TIME AND TIME again, since 1.3. So, I advocate don't change the other classes.... it's easier to slightly boost 1 class than it is to nerf several classes, and hope for any amount of class balance. And that is the mistake Bioware made. And it's a mistake many other MMO dev companies have made time and time again. In my time since I quit do you know what the most balanced PVP system is that I've ever played? And it might shock you... But Tera has the most balanced PVP system I've ever seen in any MMO. The class balance in that game is near perfect; The rest is gear and personal skill. So unlike bioware EME gets to focus on gear, rather than class balance... this game is more than 2 years old, and they still can't get class balance right yet. Becuase instead of boosting the weak classes, they nerf the strong classes. It's an endless cycle of mistakes... and something has to give sooner or later. It is my hope that bioware may finally realize that nerf'ing has a major consequence with class balance and concealments/scrappers are the example of what happens. But, that's my opinion of course... take it for what it's worth.

To be honest, I didn't feel other classes needed to be nerf'd on DPS... though many people suggested it. I was against it... just not publically... and the reason was simple.... One day they might fix concealment/scrappers and turn them into the glass cannon class they were from the start; If we think about the game evolution since launch... undisputed concealments/scrappers were the strongest DPS'ers at the start. Since then the class has been over nerf'd while other dps classes were over buffed. But, I wasn't upset about other classes getting boosted.... even now... I wish they hadn't been "fixed". Because then bioware could afford to give concealments/scrappers what they originally started the game with..... "Very high burst... medium to low dps and weak defensively" I personally feel bioware shot themselves in the foot; and I don't hold much faith personally that they will do anything for this class to make it stand out from any other dps spec, because they have castrated the class from it's greatest asset; "Burst" Damage.

I don't recall talking about any particular spec did I? But, since you brought it up, yes I agree; But i wasn't talking about lethality. Neither was the OP.

My post was not a ditch at you; It was an agreement post with you. And no this is pre 1.3 footage which was when this class lost all respect as a DPS class. If you refer back to posts of the time they were no longer Raid Capable, and were considered nothing more than gnats in PVP that presented little to no threat to anyone. Despite the people who continued to play the class.... since I quit, all I have read from people on these forums is exactly what I said would happen. Noone listened... and I sit back and giggle when I read post after post after post after post about how broken the DPS spec is. I hate to be the one to say this; I told you this would happen. And noone listened, noone supported me when I was the loudest voice against the nerf's. Now, you all made your bed, you get to sleep in it. Not me.

Honestly, this is the first time a yellow name has said anything positive for concealment/scrappers. With that I will show proper respect; 1. We need our damage back, even more so in light of level caps, and increased damage potentials of every other dps class in the game. 2. Despite many many people saying we need better utility I disagree with this to the highest degree of disdain. 3. Our damage was, can, and will be our survivability. 4. I do not expect our resistance to damage to change for the better, in fact I advocate NOT doing so. (In other words we do NOT need better defensive CD's) 5. I also find it grotesque that people advocated the roll skill was necessary; While I agree it has it's tactical advantages, THIS CLASS NEVER NEEDED IT! All we needed was our damage back. In short, Give us the ability to completely decimate a target 1v1, unless a healer or tank is involved. By that I mean, if we are fighting say a DPS class like a sin, or mar, or jug, or sorc; It is by far unreasonable that we should annihilate them in a 1v1 fight with "spike" damage as opposed to "dps" They are in fact 2 different damage styles. Unless where applicable a healer is involved with this fight, or a tank (guard) I can justify not being able to kill such people. I also want scrappers and concealments to be notorious for destroying a healer, or tank spec individually but not when paired together for obvious reasons. In short scrappers/concealments bread and butter should be to lock down 1 of the 2 healer/tank classes regardless of spec such that it forces them to separate thus removing the bonus the two have when working in pairs. I do not advocate any changes to any DPS class; In fact back before 1.3 I was a big advocate of the Assassin and Shadow boost as I felt they were to weak for what they were designed to do.... Since then they have obviously been tweaked to a point I feel is justified and making them a huge threat. Lastly, I am of the opinion that a few things need to be improved for this class; 1. A proper set bonus applicable in PVE and PVP or give us the ability to make the bonus interchangeable between the 2 game types via mods. 2. Auto crit chance for our opening attack (mandatory) 3. For the love of god, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us our 9 sec CD back on backstab. 4. Give us our 50% armor pen back. (if we get 9 sec cd on backstab I can ignore the armor pen suggestion) 4. Increase the damage of Acid blade dot (that is increase it's damage output over the same duration 6 seconds) 5. Remove the requirement of poison effect from our DPS line; It's useless most of the time, make Poison dart actually do something useful, The amount of damage it does over time is far to weak to be useful, it can be dispelled so it's useless for preventing stealth classes from re-stealthing. All in all I feel it's one of the most useless skills we have (excluding Lethal's dependency on it in which case leave it as a dot for that spec exclusively) 6. This class SHOULD be a glass cannon class; Weaker than sins defensively, but stronger in burst damage than any other DPS spec; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's for more damage, such as energy regen, roll, shield probe, I would ask to keep evasion however as it is. 7. Remove the ability to use explosive probe or any high damage ranged attack such as snipe etc. simply because this class is better suited in spec as full melee with some minor range damage skills. 8. To be honest, I don't even feel we need a speed boost of any kind with sneak or whatever. 9. Change sever tendon to become impossible to resist by any means. 10. Lower the CD of: Distraction from 12 seconds down to 9 seconds. Operatives have the highest CD on their interrupt skill compared to most if not all other classes in the game, and rely on it more in certain fights than any other class in the game. Sure I know some of these suggestions may be on the extreme side; but since a yellow name is talking about it; "Aim high, and hope bioware will meet us in the middle somewhere" My 2 cents... taken with a grain of salt due to a bitter experience with over nerf'ing of this class.

Morde- I appreciate your effort to consolidate the concerns of the IA community. But, it falls on deaf ears, and will continue to do so. It's just how things are for concelments/scrappers. Some day people will learn to except it, and stop having any sort of expectations from biowizard in regards to concealment or scrapper specs.

Enjoy the lowbie bracket while you can... when you hit 50... life is over in PVP.... and PVE for that matter.

You know what I don't miss though? The fact everyone pissed and whined about our 9k crits... when Rage spec has been hitting those numbers since launch, and now higher from what I read. But hey as long as it's not a concealment op hitting those numbers it's all gravy baby.

Yes, I miss those days... profusely.... Now I get to focus on space, which is where my interest lies in Star Wars... not this piss poor excuse for a ground game. (and I don't mean PVE, I'll give bioware that much credit but nothing more)

Many of you know me, many of you don't... Many of you hate me, many of you well... n/m everyone hates me.... Especially George Zoeller. I was going to make a fairwell video to show everyone WHAT REAL concealments used to be like before they were healers; So this is a tribute video to a class that has been abused, nerf'd, and ill-treated by both Bioware and the community. I'm sorry if you take offense to the comments in this video; But I personally don't care. This is how real Concelaments/Scrappers used to play this game in PVP. I used to get 15 hate tells a day; I quit playing IA back in 1.3 which was the final nail in the coffin for me. Incidently I have not nor will I play this class ever again, until things change; The ONLY ef'ing reason I resubbed was for the space content Dec 3rd 2013; Bioware is finally doing what I told them to do BEFORE the game was ever launched. They failed to listen to me coming from 5+ years of space PVP in SWG (A REAL star wars game). And yes, I was one of the top 5 space pvp'ers in that game. The "entire" game. across many servers; I was known as Grmipala for those that know me, and for those that despize me; But I used to server transfer constantly to challenge the top space PVP'ers in the game... I was sorely disappointed in the last year of the game, because anyone who had any skill had already quit. Yes I do miss that game, even my most notorious enemy "Corvalis" despite how much hate I had for this person, and him for me... I still appreciate his determination to keep flying when all the other veterans gave up on the game save a very few that stuck it out till shutdown. My name is Haymaker (the original Haymaker from beta not the tool who stole my name after server mergers); and yes, on my server at this time; I was THE #1 Concealment Operative on Darth Bandon and anyone who knows me can attest to that fact up until 1.3. Lastly, Screw the roll, we never needed it Screw the energy fix, we never needed it Screw utility, we never needed it Screw defensive CD's, we never needed it. Give us our efing damage back, and that's all "REAL" concealment/scrappers need to survive. (Revert our damage back to pre 1.2 standards and give us our backstab CD back) And I promise you people will fear/hate this spec like they used to. With that, Enjoy the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spaYIgyr0E0

Cleanse only works for physical/tech does not work for mind/mez/force and to my knowledge only mercs and ops can cleanse physical/tech not sure about sorc healers if they even have a cleanse which I believe they do, just not sure which types it covers.

obvious troll is obvious

While smash spec got unnoticed when it was doing the same damage numbers. Now people have twice the hp pools they had at launch.... and every class got a damage boost except concealments/scrappers. OUR damage simply doesn't account for the increase in gear and hp pools. We SHOULD be doing 6-8k's on HS now just like every other class because a skilled player knows not to wig balls about it... oh wait... never mind that's what they are doing now with smash specs. Forget I said anything carry on. Cwatididther? The mentality of the community hasn't changed in 11 months. Instead of learning to play their class, they prefer to nerf a class because BW made the unfortunate mistake of announcing how overpowered smash spec has been since launch. Do I feel smash spec needs a nerf. No I do not... Why? Because then I'd be a *********** hypocrit like everyone else. Give concealments/scrappers our pre 1.2 damage numbers back and bubble sorcs can keep their retardedly overpowered stun skill. Mercs have no say in the matter at this point, since BW already stated they will be the new FOTM when they get more escapes. Which results in an unforseen nerf to concealments/scrappers because WE don't have gap closers like all other melee classes in the game. And having stealth is not an excuse for the absence of a gap closer... Assassins and Shadows are a prime example of that arguement being pointless.

Here's the fix to overpowered healers, bubble stuns, and FOTM smash specs: It's rather simple really: GIVE US OUR DAMN PRE 1.2 DAMAGE BACK, so we have the damage to stop these people without breaking the game worse than it already is. Advantages: We could PVE again! We would be considered useful in PVP! Overpowered classes would have a reason to fear this class once again. We would have our 6-8k crits back! You know those 6-8k crits that every class in the game does that we don't do? To further prove my point here is a list of classes currently in game who hit me for 6-8k damage crits: 1. Sorcs/sages 2. BH/troopers 3. Sins/Shadows 4. Snipers/Gunslingers 5. Jugs/guardians 6. Mar/Sents Cwuteyedidther? Scrappers and concealments are not included in that list... Why? Because we do not hit those numbers like all other classes. I won't even mention the fact that all those classes have better survivability than scrappers and concealments. All I'm asking for is our damage back, I will gladly sacrifice "SOME" of the lack of survivability we already have compared to all other classes for those 6-8k crits on HS and 5-6k crits on BS.

fixed This fix is PER character, and does not include damage done by 2 characters in 9 seconds which incidently is upwards of 24k - 32k damage if they work together as a team. (What a concept: Teamwork in PVP) Let's do the math on this real quick: 2 smash specs can literally 2 shot a group of 5 people simultaneously in 9 seconds. And people complained when concealments killed people in 6-8 seconds with skills that are 100% single target focused. That is just laughable by comparison.

To sumarize my previous post in 1 sentence in a language most people will understand: We are the deathknights of SWTOR. Minus the fact they could still PVE.

Can't argue with any posts here as I agree with them all. However, to define the 2 types of concealment operatives. 1. There are those of us who played since launch and continue to play the spec - Yes there is a PVP build for it. 2. There are those of us who tried it and realized just how difficult it really is; and ultimately became healers. - These are people who thought concealment was easy mode and in the end either quit playing the class or went healer. Most of these people don't learn this lesson until they PVP at level 50. That's when the real learning curve starts and when they realize 10-49 PVP doesn't mean jack crap. 3. Lethality is a joke at best. The only time lethality shines is on a sniper. Anyone who advocates lethality over concealment in PVP has no friggin idea what they are doing. 4. Healer spec was overpowered before 1.2 and is even more overpowered post 1.2. 5. If you want to be in the niche group of people who play concealment the correct way... you have to talk to those of us who have played it since launch. We know the class better than 98% of the community (since those 98% are the ones who got the class nerfed 6 times in a row because of L2P issues) Yes I said it L2P issues. They refused to L2P against the class and decided it'd be easier just to nerf the class. People will argue that the nerf's were definately needed. But here's the evidence that supports my arguement about L2P. Rage spec jugs, were hitting and have been hitting 8-9k smashes since launch. Only recently when BW announced smash had a faster animation time people started trying it. Well done bioware.... Don't nerf a rage "we concealments" have said was overpowered since launch. Nerf us instead. The difference from launch till now is this spec actually does less damage now than it did at launch. People are crying like school girls. I find that a hysterical irony. I guess I'm the only person in the world with an open mind to the truth of the matter. I won't even bring up bubble stuns in PVP it's basically unanimously agreed that that skill needs to get nerf'd. And Bioware already said it WILL be changed. 6. I dub #5 as "Wow syndrome" - Bioware was all to happy to oblige since this game targeted the wow community from the get go. Yes you can 100% blame the wow community for breaking the game, not just for our class, but for PVP in general. The fact Bioware can't balance the classes, fix the resolve system, fix the toolbar glitch, DPS parsing for concealments, fix broken mechanics for this class. Is all the evidence anyone needs to look at for proof. 7. Lastly, you can forget raiding as concealment. Don't even bother. Unless of course you are part of the 98% and go healer or quit. If the above isn't enough reason to explain the shortcomings of concealment. Refer to my signature as it is a direct quote from good ol Georgie puddin pie in regards to teams of stunlocking operatives. And Bioware immediately responded to the call from Mercs as they WILL be getting more escapes (effectively making mercs FOTM) I'm just glad I ground up a merc already and have him nearly fully geared. I'm going to enjoy the tears from melee classes then. All we ever get from Bioware is when the next nerf is coming.

1. Mars are NOT a *********** stealth class. They shouldn't have a *********** stealth skill to begin with especially when it exceeds the stealth integrity of a pure stealth class. 2. Mars defensive CD's are overpowered and have been for 6-8 months now. Keeping force camo is a ******** excuse for a class that isn't even a stealth class. Much less making it borderline impossible to force them out of it.

ya it's downright BS. How about this.... give concealments pre-1.2 damage numbers back... give us our 3 second KD back, and let sorcs have their bubble stuns. Watch how effective it is then when we kill them before they pop a 2nd bubble. Oh wait, I apologize I wouldn't want them to unsub.

You should PVP like I do...16 hours/day. And count the number of lolmars you see that aren't I-WIN button spec'd. I count on average 2-3 per week. That's 2-3 individuals that are anni spec or carnage. Everyone else is smash spec. (Not even including jugs/guardians). Now count the number of bubblestun **** you see. So far I count 75% of the sorc/sage populice is bubble stun spec'd or hybrid spec of it. That is PVP on my server. And ranked wz's are so bad because of it that even top pvp teams on my server won't do rank'd anymore.

Just got out of a wz... 3 x Healer hybrid bubble stun sorcs. You can imagine the type of fight it was. Bubble stun, break, bubble stun break, bubble stun break, bubble stun break, root, die rinse and repeat. Edit: Oops forgot "Smash, smash, smash, smash in between each bubble" lolfotmmarauders. Mar defensive CD's have always been overpowered, now they carry around a portable Nuke I-WIN button in addtion to a "I am god" bubble stun.

And in every match noone really cares about concealments as a threat because the concensus is they are non factors to worry about compared to all the other overpowered classes in the game. You got it exactly right Raika.