This part is true. This part is not true. Raiders couldn't dominate Prior to path 1.2 either. That mix of BM and Rak only worked against players in Centurion/Champion gear mix. Players in full BM put out more damage and healing. This was all stated by BioWare. Ok, what you state there makes total sense. However, I have no idea why anyone would think that removing a game mechanic (like Expertise) would simply mean everything else stays the same. In my title post here, I state that if you remove a gear to a machine, things have to be adjusted to compensate for that missing gear... well Expertise is a gear to the machine, so of course this would be addressed. On top of that common sense, it has been stated over and over again that the object of removing Expertise is so gear progression for both paths has less of gap and is more "even". Dominating and Even are not synonyms of each other, so I have no idea why it keeps getting brought up. Buy a gold fish?

Again, I reiterate; Everyone that has nightmares from WoW because they screwed it up so badly and people can't seem to get over it... Well, it's time to move past WoW's screw up and understand that it can be done without this "dominating" taking place, and several suggestions within this thread alone have illustrated that.

Here's the quote, read it. Like I said, the EXACT OPPOSITE was taking place. Raiders were PvPing to get their gear. Everyone that has nightmares from WoW because they screwed it up so badly can't seem to get over it...

It's not tied to anything? It's how you learned how to play the game... that's pretty damn important. Yeah, PvP is slower! And you keep trying to tell me that PvP can't be slower, and I keep telling you that's not correct because 10-49 it is slower and it works just fine. So it is possible to adjust the progression rates if need be. Again, you just proved my point. PvP can be and is capable of having slower progression to that of PvE. You also just proved my point that PvE and PvP mix amazingly well in the 10-49 bracket. If you as the player want the PvP gear, you can get it. If not, you can use PvE gear; and if your PvE gear isn't amazing, Bolster helps you out. Thank you for proving my point. So what you're telling me here is people are totally fine with PvP having a different rate of progression with gear. Cool, thanks, that's what I've been trying to point out. What you're also trying to say is that if you got PvP gear in this bracket, you're still ok because Bolster helps you out when you don't have the best PvE gear. Again, thank you for proving my point. And yet people still like the 10-49 bracket... because Bolster renders that gap to a slim margin. So freedom of choice wins again here. You can PvP to get gear, you can PvE to get gear, you can do both, you can mix and match, and you can choose how you want to play the game without severe punishments via massive gear gaps. Thanks again for pointing out why Bolster keeps getting brought up. Yeah, just like people can be carried through Raids to get Raiding gear. Not much of a point. There isn't a single aspect about this game that is "hardcore", not one. The Raids are stupid easy too. So you can lose your way to Raid gear, and you can stand there and beat on a stupid mob for PvP gear... seems the same to me. There's nothing Hardcore about this game, nothing. That is a very good point that supports everything I've been saying, thank you. PvP is the only thing that requires time and effort, because players change. PvE requires one run for a chimp to learn which button dispenses the cookie. The mobs don't change tactics when your gear gets better, not one bit. So, low end gear, high end gear, the mob still attacks you. That progression is not short when the player is getting destroyed every turn and gets frustrated. This is something BioWare themselves are saying they are trying to address because it's worse than it was prior to 1.2 ? Can I swap mods between PvE and PvP gear? No? I could prior to 50. Can I hold my own in PvE gear during PvP? No? I could prior to 50. Can I get any type of progression from space missions? No? I could prior to 50. Can I swap out gear that I don't like the looks of? No? I could prior to 50. Can I earn just the Mods/Enhancements/Armoring/Etc? No? I could prior to 50. But no no, they didn't change anything. Except that doesn't happen in the 10-49 bracket. And dominating can't happen when both sides have similar gear... but keep kidding yourself that dominating is going to take place. The only reason that word even gets brought up is because WoW screwed up hardcore, and now people have nightmares or something about it. WoW screwed it up, yeah, we know this... time to move on. Again, thanks for proving my point. "Force players to do this, in order to do that" that's a good game theory. Again, thanks for proving my point. "Force players to do this, in order to do that" that's a good game theory. HAH, I have all my screen shots of my level 20 gear at level 39 and I was always top of the charts. I kept my 40 gear to level 49 and was always topping the charts. So, I can't comment on why you had such a hard time, my guild and I did not. The same amount that do now... the whole reason this game is sinking, because there's hardly any endgame content. Agreed. But that's how it is now, not how it could be. I can solve that. It's called more Content. Problem solved. If there are other rewards besides gear, problem solved. There's probably dozens of ways to solving that dilemma with ease. And that's what I've been preaching over and over and over, more content, more freedom, more customization. More content would hurt the game? I thought this game was dying fast because of lack of content... I'm really confused. That makes no sense to me, none. If one path is faster than the other, so you speed up the other path... you "think" players are going to complain? No. Players complain now-a-days when things get harder, just like your complaints about "dominate this, and dominate that", and my complaint about "two paths of progression being totally separate"; complaining about speeding up progression in an area and you think people will think that's not acceptable....??? I totally disagree sir. Other than the dozens of other MMOs that have combined the two and done it well... but as it stands almost half the players are unhappy now; so umm there is something that can be done to narrow down that margin, I don't know what that something is going to be, but keeping things exactly the way they are is not the something needed.

You do realize that what you just stated is the EXACT OPPOSITE of why BioWare put more Expertise in Patch 1.2... no, no you didn't realize that or you wouldn't have just made that comment. And if you think I'm wrong I can provide you with a direct quote from James Ohlen.

Ok, addressing this first. I think this is good light to be able to state where my point is at. At level 40 if I wanted to do a FP, I could. If I wanted to PvP I could. If I found a piece of gear I liked in a FP I could use it. If I earned enough tokens in a WZ I could buy a piece. It worked just fine at level 40, just fine. So, my point is, no matter what you do, Path A or Path B, you still progress down the same road. The way it is now, you MUST DO BOTH EVENTS in order to progress. So, if you like casual PvP every Friday but Raid Saturday - Thursday, your PvP events on Friday are going to blow, because there's no possible way you'll be able to defeat the people that out gear you. I don't Raid, I don't PvE, I am PvPer from day one of Ultima Online. I don't want a "freebie" kill because the poor sap doesn't have good enough gear. I want the kill because the poor sap was unable to defeat me - that's true pure PvP, anyone that says otherwise is compensating for something. So, if you join a WZ and you are full WH just like me, I could give a rats *** about how you got that gear; I wouldn't care if you got it Raiding, I wouldn't care if you got it PvPing, it doesn't matter to me, not one bit. If the game didn't spend 49 levels teaching you how to play it, just to change everything you know and loved, I wouldn't be having this debate. If you spent 49 levels forced down one path of progression, then that would simply be how the game is... but big surprise, you spend 49 levels having the freedom to choose what you feel like doing, and the you get slapped in the face at level 50 with little to do, and being forced to pick. If I am a raider, and every Friday I want to PvP, guess what, every Friday I'll be getting destroyed by nothing more than the gear gap. Using your "dominating" statement, if everyone can dominate - than no one can, so there wouldn't be any dominating. Quote from James Ohlen; Yeah, that's a fun way to take your break. If you and I have the same gear, that's not possible. There's nothing behind that argument, it doesn't even make sense. Actually that is what is going on now, quoted right from the director, many suggestions here stop that completely. Hmm, that worked just fine for you for 49 levels, why is it at level 50 all the sudden that doesn't work for you? Again with the whole "they don't spend 2 hours, they spend 1 day" stuff. I don't know how to explain this more clearly than BLAH = 1 Piece of Gear from Raiding / and BLAH = 1 Piece of Gear from PvP - BLAH = BLAH, same time, same, same, same, same, what ever BLAH is, it is the same. 1 Day, 1 Week, 1 Year, 35 Decades... pick one, it's a fictitious number. The BLAH formula worked just fine for everyone for 49 levels, 50 doesn't have to be different. All you have to do is look at more things. PvP and PvE do NOT need different progression times. World Bosses can't spawn millions of credits instead? Or even doing all the Raids, getting all the gear, having the Lockouts in place can also Lockout their progression in PvP. This is not a hard concept. Let's make up some numbers; Let's decide that PvE has 5 Raids each with a week Lockout. Each Raid contains 20 Marks Towards Gear. You Raid all 5, get all 100 Marks that were achieved or rewarded, and you're locked out for a week. What do you do? Sit on your butt? Play Diablo 3? You decide to PvP. 100 Total Raids Marks = 100% Weekly Gear Progression Do 1 Raid = 20% of your Gear Progression for the week Do 3 Raids = 60% of your Gear Progression for the week Do all 5 Raids = 100% of your Gear Progression for the week You decide to jump into a PvP game at 100% Gear Progression and you just are flat out not going to be able to earn gear for the rest of the week via PvP. You can still grind Valor, earn some extra credits, help unlock some Legacy stuff, but your Gear Progression is Caped. Done, I just balanced it with an idea off the top of my head. PvP has a Gear Progression of 100 Marks per week. Those marks are earned via how well you do in the WZ. If you earn all 100 Marks for the week, and then you decide to Raid, you are not going to advance in Gear. You can still earn credits, Legacy Unlocks, speeder drops and such, but not gear progression. Crappy idea or not, that's just one idea that just came to thought. So, the bottom line is, it can be done.

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lol, thanks for the words of support!

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My Proposal: Players want to PvP, they can, and they never have to PvE if they don't want to. However, if they want to PvE for a break in their routine, their gear isn't so far behind that they are so gimp no one will take them. Current System: If you PvP and that's what you like to do, and you want to take a break for a night and PvE in a Raid, you can't without being FORCED into Raiding more than you want to in order to get the gear to make anything you do worth while enough to be invited. So which one forces players again? My Way - The gear is much closer, and if PvPers want to PvE for a break, they can with a much less gear penalty difference than what's currently in place. Their Way - You can't just take a break and go, you have to endure the path you don't like very much just so on the off chance that you feel like doing it down the road, you'll be geared enough to get an invite. They can. Using fictional numbers (NOT REAL VALUES) - If a Raid takes 2 hours for 8 people to clear, not including grouping up and finding everybody that's needed, if it takes 2 hours and the average is everyone gets 1 piece of gear. If it takes 2 hours of solid WZs, not including que times, if it takes 2 hours and the average reward rate is everyone gets 1 piece of gear.... this is accomplish-able.

No, not correct. And that's my point about not being able to continue this debate with you. I feel I've made it very very very clear that I am ok with many options, as long as the options re-bridge the gigantic gap that patch 1.2 created between PvE gear and PvP gear. I've even stated that going back to pre 1.2 would be better than it is now. Patch 1.2 went off in the complete opposite direction that I care to see. But no, I'm not "stuck on one desire". The difference between PvE and PvP went to far in patch 1.2, any suggestion that brings that gap back closer together I am for. But no, it does not have to be the same gear. I'd personally prefer (and I've stated this many times) that the gear be split up between the two paths - equipment rewards are hollow husks and only for "looks", each path offers different looking gear; then the reward system for progression is based off everything you put into your gear, hilts, crystals, armoring, etc., and PvE rewards different stat'd mods than PvP offers (like how there's 3-4 different types of each mod, so PvE offers 1 and 2, while PvP offers 3 and 4). But again, that's just one suggestion, I happen to like it, but I'm not closed off to any other suggestions that help remove and prevent what they did in Patch 1.2. I agree with you here, 100%. My issue is the "better gear" doesn't have to be such a gigantic advantage, it is possible for it to be an advantage on the small scale, leaving a ton of room for player skill. Patch 1.2 pushed player skill right out the window and stated loudly that "if you don't have Expertise you're going to get destroyed". I loathe that line of thinking. Rewarding players is what should be done, but having a system that feeds the gear so much power that player skill is totally thrown out... that disgusts me. Again, I understand what you are stating but I can't debate with you much because I agree with many of your points. The point I'm failing to convey is that Expertise is an "ideal" that I loathe. The ideal has been quoted verbatim by BioWare as to why they implemented Expertise how they did in Patch 1.2, and nothing within my reason or logic can agree with their "ideals".

Meh, that's not it. Either you don't get what I'm trying to say, or I'm not properly conveying what I'm trying to say. Either way I can't debate this with you because it's not close to what I'm getting at. I'm trying to say "apples" and you keep asking me why I keep saying "oranges"... I can't answer that question because I'm not trying to say "oranges".

Btw, this is you telling me that you are right and I am wrong... yet again. I thought you don't make these statements? Umm, I was agreeing with you, I was telling you that I feel you are right and I agree.... I agree that everything you stated was a Flaw, yes I agree, those are all Flaws. So... yeah.

This is where I'm either totally out-of-line with my thinking, or I'm unable to properly convey what I'm thinking. Because my thinking is along the lines of this; BW stated the main reason for Expertise was because they didn't want PvEers to get gear by not PvEing. What this means to me is, BW thought they were forcing PvEers into PvP because PvP was the fastest way to gear to up. So instead of addressing the gear up rate of PvE, they pushed PvP gear further into the useless category for PvE. I'm not saying have "one gear set". I'm saying have both paths reward equally and none of this should be an issue. If I happen to PvE today and something drops that I like, I can use it in both PvE and PvP. If I happen to PvP tomorrow and get an item that has an awesome Enhancement that would go great with my PvE set, I can swap it out and use it for PvE. If the problem is gear is to easy to get via one path (which they stated was the actual problem), then fix "the problem" don't create new problems trying to throw a bandaid onto it. Again, using Expertise as a crutch to help Devs balance out PvP... sure, I can live with that, no big deal. But that's not what they are using it for as their main focus. Their main focus is to force players to gain gear via one method or the other, and not allow players the choice to gain gear equally from both. It's that mentality that I have a problem with, and Expertise is at the heart of that mentality.

I agree with what you stated here, I truly do. The reason Expertise is high on my hit list, is because what is stands for, the rational BW has to use it. As I've stated many many times, having Expertise isn't what bothers me, it's being lead through a game 1-49 with all these choices and freedoms, and being punished for hitting level 50 by having so many of those freedoms revoked. This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking. When I state "It is not Needed", I am stating the mentality behind it isn't needed. To remove choice, to force play styles, to slap away everything the player has grown accustomed to from 1-49... that's not well thought out, and as you are clearly indicating above they haven't thought out end game very much at all. Expertise is on my hit list because of the poor thought out end game. Here, let me quote James Ohlen and rip apart his stupidity; After all the preaching about not dividing players into having to pick one way or the other in all the other areas of the game, Mr. Ohlen coughs up that statement. So instead of fixing the issue, and balancing the game better, and make better choices for their player base, they simply slap on more Expertise so they don't have to worry about making the End Game Content more balanced. PvEers were getting gear from PvP in order to Raid because PvP was easier, so instead of addressing the issue of the PvE purchasing system (you know, the actual problem) we will just make PvP gear way less effective in PvE and FORCE PLAYERS back into PvE. I hate that man, I hope he gets fired. So, we made a stupid choice and increased Expertise because we at BW believe in Segregation, everyone of this color please move to the back of the bus! Oh, and sorry about the new level 50s, we know you're going to get destroyed by players with Expertise, and that you'll be even more frustrated than before Patch 1.2, but that's ok, we don't mind if you cancel your account because our End Game Content decisions are horrible, because our goal is to hit F2P by the end of the summer.

They removed the alignment restrictions because of what I was saying. They wanted players to have the freedom of choice to not be forced down any one single avenue as the best way to get gear. They wanted players to have the choice to flip flop back and forth as they wanted. Same with BioChem and CyberTech for crew skills, those two crew skills are the two to choose if you PvP, BW stated they didn't want to force players into choices, so they were going to make the other crew skills more viable. BW stresses they want to give players the freedom of choice to jump back and forth and not be punished into having to focus on one thing in order to properly gear yourself... yet Ohlen clearly states you must pick PvE or PvP at level 50, and you are not free to flip flop freely back and forth without penalty.

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I didn’t skim over anything. If you polled a population, first you would need to know the average size of the population, then you would need to average a couple variables, then you get your poll size need to represent the larger base. Look, if polls didn’t work, BW themselves wouldn’t be using them on these boards to figure out their next moves on World PvP. Fact is, the polls do work, and BW knows this, and they are using them as well to make game wide choices. Sample Polling works, if you think otherwise, well, that’s your choice I guess. I know what Bolster does, I clearly stated that “it is capable” not “this is what it currently effects”. Remember, anything dealing with Expertise being gone is hypothetical because Expertise isn’t gone. And I have suggested putting Expertise on all gear and rendering it useless during PvE, or even using it during PvE as a way to buff down or buff up mods. I'm sure this is an accurate statement. Players will continue to cancel their accounts, and this game will be f2p soon... they already gave out a free month, if they don't do something quick, they're sunk. Just look at Que times now. Expertise may be getting the brunt of my dislike, but there's still something very wrong with the game be it Expertise or not, and the Que times are a direct reflection of this.

My statement is pretty accurate. What you state above here, is no different than the Light Side/Dark Side progression. You have the choice to pick one or the other, but if you pick both you are punished by not being rewarded the same as if you had dedicated your effort to full one side or the other. And that's what you are describing here in your quote. BW publicly claimed that they didn't want to force players down one path or another, that players the bounced between would be rewarded equally as one that dedicates down a single path. Nothing mixed up, that is a straight claim from BW in one of their pre Patch 1.2 videos here on this site.

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That is not accurate. The number of voters is actually pretty good for a poll of a million subscribers. It's simple statistics, but not so simple if one has little knowledge about statistics. But you are right, it's not definitive, it's merely a snap shot that helps represent what is going on. It's mentioned because it is a system in place that is capable of providing the PvP centric stat that people argue the Devs need to balance PvP and not mess with PvE. If the game needs Expertise for "class balance" than Bolster can be used to accomplish this without the need for Expertise. Umm, Expertise is the same amount across all the WH sets, so how is that any different? Nice to read your opinions on that, but that's not fact, it's your opinion. Unless you feel you speak for a million subscribers, including myself.

This isn't a problem that any suggestion would cause, this is a problem with Gear heavy progression based mmo's. So no matter how you cut that pizza, it's still a pizza. Raiders are already bored with this game and quitting. PvPers are already bored with this game and quitting. Players are quitting at such an alarming rate that BioWare has given out a free month of game time just to try and keep them playing while they work on new stuff to patch out. Players like this don't stay because they have two sets gear they can get because they must get both sets. Players divided are even more likely to produce these kinds of issues because if they dedicated any amount of time into one event and hit the gear cap, why would they care about the other event they didn't care enough to dedicate time to in the first place. So no, splitting the gear, making the gear the same, using any one of the other suggestions - this is still going to happen because it is a gear progression driven mmo. People that stay to play, stay because they like playing the game, and that's the bottom line. Not exactly. Back in beta the Devs stated that level 50's would have their own bracket, it was suppose to happen before launch. It was already known that level 50 Expertise Gear destroyed everything else in its path. Playing in beta this was clear and it was addressed that 50's would be separated... but just like Ranked WZs, it didn't happen on their projected date. Also, the Devs stated that 10-49 PvP is the most popular bracket, to the point they stated they are overwhelmed with the amount of players Queing for it and had to adjust their system (whatever that means). But point being here, people like pre-50 better then end game 50, and that's something they might want to look into.

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You mentioned something here that is also on my nerves. BW has stated many times that they want to make sure Players are not "forced" into any aspect of the game. They stated that in reference to LS and DS choices, and players being forced to go full on one path to get the better gear, and they stated it in reference to Crafting and that they wanted to remove BioChem and CyberTech as the only two rightful choices for PvPers. It upsets me because they state they want players to "have the freedom to pick what they want to do and not be forced into anything specific..." yet they clearly force players into PvP or PvE at level 50. On top of that, BioChem and CyberTech are still the two choices for PvPers. I am personally hoping for drawing board to come out. The reason being, 1-49 was a great and fun experience, then you get to level 50 and everything you've known and loved about the game gets slapped away from you. Pre 1.2 had it's problems, but those problems were exaggerated by patch 1.2 (imo). The main theme behind the suggestions I like, are all about having the freedom of choice. When you, as the player, were leveling you had the choice to level via PvP, or level via Quests, or level via grinding, or level via Flash Points, or level via Space Missions. You, as the player, had the choice to keep your gear, use what you liked the look of, modify it as how you sought fit. Everything I loved about this game was because of the freedom the players were given. The second the player hits level 50 they are punished by having all those freedoms of progression removed for them; now they have to pick an avenue and are no longer free to mingle in and out of the other areas. That being stated, I am a fan of any system that gives back the player what they enjoyed while leveling 1-49, any system that gives the player the freedom of choice to progress in the game while not punishing them for their choice by not allowing them to mingle in the other areas as well. Any system that gives the players back the freedom that they grew accustom to while leveling 1-49, I am going to be a fan of more so than I am of Patch 1.2

Way to much time. I'm on con-leave till I heal. But as it stands going from loving this game to not even wanting to log in any more... I don't want more reasons to not like the game.