Interesting, definitely an improvement. Really the only thing i think would need to be worked out is how to divide up the shield and absorb. Personally i believe at least 2%(if not all) of that shield and at least 1/3 of that absorb should be passive, perhaps creating some stacking buffs between 2 abilities for the remainder. Example: 5% shield on guard stance 5% absorb added to inner peace. And then cyclonic sweeps makes guardian slash and blade storm add 5% absorb stacking to 10% and lasting 20 seconds. This would give us the 5% more passive shield and absorb, and 10% absorb gained between 2 ability uses. If your wondering why i split the extra absorb buff between Guardian Slash and Blade Storm, i was trying to not lump all the eggs in one basket so to speak. Blade Storm gives a little more flexibility in maintenance, especially in situations like the mine field in EC where you have to wait for the mobs to get to you, or having to move away from the tentacle because of close adds on TFB. That slight range increase could help in those situations. But all in all it would bring the guardian/jugg back into its original niche along with the powertech.

Then the change was just to give a small chance to proc courage stacks on F/T I/E attacks. Still doesn't really do much though.

Actually i remember quite clearly the talent reading lowers opponents accuracy by 5%, while on the SIn it said M/R specially. When 2.0 was on the pts i scanned every detail of the difference, now this doesn't mean it actually worked this way and may just be a typo. And i agree with you on it mostly being pointless, i would like to see defense rating to a much smaller extent increase resistance chance as well. Maybe a 1 to 3 ratio

Because previously i believe jugg/guardian was the only tank class that had an accuracy debuff that affected all attacks, and thus the resistance chance it created applied to the the entire raid. I'm pretty sure the SIns didn't do this because they got resistance in their tree. They changed the debuff to be equal the sin tanks, and added the effective resistance they had into blade barricade. Additionally since juggs/guardians had no actual resistance they had no chance at all the build revenge stacks off F/T I/E attacks. Now they do, even if it is a very small % chance

Sorry, i ended up editing my post. Didn't think you would respond so quick. I added an additional part about I/E damage mitigation. And i can see your point about talents not really having both. Perhaps splitting this up between guard stance, shield specialization and guardian strike might be better.

First let me say thank you for the equation, it will help me a lot. With the first and second question i was looking at having shield and absorb on both talents, splitting the 5% and 15% to try to make the mitigation on each to be as equal as possible to what the talents already do. But i do realize there really is no way to make it 100% equal because of the way shield and absorb work. And the i realize the defense question wouldn't work after thinking about. One thought i had about this is if the DR was removed from guardian slash that the I/E damage reduction on inner peace should be increased to compensate. I know that previously Sin had the best I/E mitigation, and if that is to be returned perhaps just increases inner peace by 1% which still leaves SIn as tops, or perhaps making them equal by increasing it by 2%.

I am curious about a few things. 1. What would the equivalent of the 3% damage reduction on guardian slash be as shield and absorb. 2. What would the equivalent of the 15% armor on guard stance be as shield and absorb. 3. Would some combination of what we currently have and what you suggest still make shield and absorb a more attractive stats for guardian to invest in, and what would that combination look like 4. Would some combination of Defense, shield and absorb, leaning more towards shield and absorb, still make shield and absorb a more attractive stats to invest in, and what would that combination look like. I am not versed in the equations used to figure these out, but i wished to discuss this further with you as i like where you are going with it. I ask only so i can have some solid understanding in the discussion.

That is exactly what i was saying, but enraged defense without a threat drop is a bit to op for the jugg tank. Without redesigning enraged defense, or the immortal spec it will create an imbalance among the tank specs.

Back to drawing board on enraged defense. Base ability: 4 rage, 2 minute cool down, 9% heal with threat dump removed. Immortal: Sweeping fury lowers cost by 1. Becomes an additional rage dump every 2 minutes with a small heal Vengeance and rage: Talents reduce base cost by 4, lower cool down to 45 seconds, bring back old effect allowing 3% heal for 1 rage with a max of 9% additional (18% total possible) Vengeance: 15% damage reduction(Perhaps lowering this to 10% to balance the guaranteed 9% heal) Rage: Create and absorb effect equal to 18% of your health. Not sure this would be equal to the vengeance one and may take some more work. All these are a starting point, but they may be a bit op and need to be toned down a bit further to balance against other classes.

I 'm glad we have at least come to a better understanding, i wish to suggest smart improvements to the game that also take class and role balance into account for both PvP and PvE. I don't want to see one side suffer because of a buff or nerf to the other. The threat drop is negotiable, although i think thematically it fits: Threatening scream either makes them angry or scares them away, mass mind control is pretty self explanatory, and sonic missile pisses them off or makes them run away to negate the effect. Either way it is handled the base ability of enraged defense would need to be toned down to maintain tank balance, and as you suggested add in talents to improve and make it unique in each dps tree. This we can hopefully agree on. And i play on Shadowlands.

This post is to give ideas to the class rep, a class rep who has to represent both pvp and pve equally. Your snide comment about pve tells me that your ideas should be taken with a grain of salt. You have no concern for the overall balance of the game except pvp. All changes in this game have to look at balance between pvp and pve. No change should be made that will hurt one or the other. I have made suggestions that keep this in mind since i play both . And any dps who aoe taunts in pve will have to switch to his tank stance anyway, or he will die. Go watch a sin, jugg or powertech dps aoe taunt in a raid and see how long he lives with or 5 more mobs on him in dps stance. All 3 will still have their single target taunt untouched, and all 3 will still provide the same protection in pvp no matter if they are in dps or tanks stance. The only change is applied to the pve aoe taunt effect which a dps in pve should not be using unless they switch to tank stance for emergencies. And again all threat drop are 45 seconds, the mez is 1 minute long. Any threat reduction ability added needs the be 45 seconds as well to maintain class balance. One change in the coding for aoe taunt, coding which all 3 classes access when pressing their aoe taunt is all that is needed to give all the tank AC's a real threat dump ability. And immortal can not have unrestricted access to enraged defense as it stands now. It is to OP. I sincerely hope someone with a better head for balance enters this conversation soon.

I tried to say that already, it isn't sinking in. A sin tank can heal about 24% of HP every 45 seconds with force lightning, with current numbers we are looking around 9000 HP. My juggernaut can absorb about 1450 every 12 seconds with sonic barrier for about 4400 in the same 45 seconds, 3 seconds more would make it 5800 roughly. Enraged defense without a threat drop would realistically heal 10% on a boss every 45 seconds. Removing the treat drop would bring my juggernauts self healing(sonic barrier is considered a heal) to 8000 with my 36000 health. With 3 more seconds i have beat the same sin in self healing mitigation on single target. For a trash pull it will be higher because more mobs will be hitting me. This will destroy tank balance across the 3 tank AC's. My suggestion to make it baseline 10% heal, 2 minute cool down costing 3 or 4 rage cuts down on this, although a few tweaks would need to be made to sin and powertech to make it fully balanced. Even at 2 minutes we get 24,00 for sin and 18,000 for the jugg, 3,600 higher than it would be without enraged ( based on 36,000 hp jugg, 37000 sin) With this new base ability they can introduce differences for vengeance and rage, perhaps even adding some of its original capability without throwing tank balance out the window. It could maintain its randomness as it does now, maybe cap at 10%, but it still needs to be a longer cool down for immortal without a threat drop on it. If we are to be serious about suggesting or asking for improvements to the juggernaut we have to consider balance between the classes, as well as balance between pvp and pve. P.S to the op and the treat drop on the mez: The mez is a 1 minute cool down and all threat drop abilities are 45 seconds. All 3 tanks share an ability that is a 45 second cool down, and the ability is the opposite of a threat drop. With a simple If, then or statement in the code for aoe taunts it could be used as a threat drop in a dps stance. And the pvp protection can apply no matter what stance you are in. I made this suggestion thinking of overall class balance, to cut down on ability bloat, and to make sure that if threat reduction was removed from enraged defense the jugg would still have a threat drop.

Any serious discussion on enraged defense has to address its horrible design. it is both a treat dump and a defensive cool down, and it cost resources. The threat dump needs to be separated from the defensive cool down. threat dumps should not cost resources and defensive cool downs shouldn't either. No other defensive cool down or threat dump in the game does. And just removing the threat dump and leaving the class without one doesn't work either. The only reason that makes any sense why it was designed that way was to maintain pve tank balance by discouraging jugg tanks from using it. The combination of threat dump, and the fact immortal was already short on resources stopped it from being used effectively. I have no problem having it do different things for each spec, but for immortal it needs to be toned back heavily if the threat dump is removed. This ability can heal up to 30% health, if used by a tank during an aoe pull it is quite possible to heal 21% or more in the 10 seconds it lasts, and it can be used every 45 seconds. That would basically make the jugg the king of all aoe tanks. They would be the easiest to heal. The whole reason for changing it to a baseline 2 minute cooldown, 4 rage, 10% heal was for exactly that reason. The dps specs can then be boosted by talents in each tree to make them better. It has nothing to do with dumbing down the class, its about creating balance for the class, and with every other class in the game. To reiterate, threat dumps and defensive cool downs should not cost resources, especially when it eats 33% or more of your total resource pool. Its bad design. Resource management should only be about damage, threat, and healing from healers. Defensive cool downs are there to help the healer keep you alive.

Original topic of conversation: Enraged Defense is a subpar threat reducer in pve becuase its costs rage, enraged defense is also a subpar defensive cool down because it costs rage. Problems to solve: 1.How to provide a proper threat reducer for pve 2. How to make enraged defense a better defensive cool down without creating an imbalance among the tank AC's. Juggernaut tanks have exceptional defensive cool downs and adding another can potentially create an imbalance among the tanks(its cost and threat reduction are meant as a deterrent to tanks in pve) Problem 1: Juggernaut have the worst threat reduction ability in the game. But they are not alone, Sins do not have a proper threat reduction ability at all( emergency stealth is a 2 min cool down, operative have both the cloak and a proper threat reducer) Powertechs just had one added, but this game has enough ability bloat already. A few facts: All threat reducing abilities are on a 45 second cool down All aoe taunts are on a 45 second cool down. Aoe taunt for pve gives the tank the attention of all targets withing 30 meters for 6 seconds and 110-130% percent of the threat of the highest threat holder on all pve targets withing 30 meters , even if that person is tank himself Aoe taunt in pvp reduces the damage of all targets within 30 meters by 30% unless they attack the tank for 6 seconds All 3 tank AC's use stances: 1 for tank, 2 for dps Proposed change: Aoe taunts work as a threat reduction in a dps stance while still working the way they do in pvp no matter what stance you are in. Solution provides a better threat reduction for jugg and sin, cuts down on ability bloat for powertech. Problem 2: Enraged defense is sub par as a defensive cool down because of its costs. Its creation as this ugly catch all ability is a poor design choice. But it is clear it was designed as a liability for jugg tanks in pve to discourage its use, most likely to maintain tank balance across the classes. Both ideas i described create a better version of enraged defense that is more useful. The first i described gives it only to dps and maintains tank balance. the second can be used by all, is free for dps, has improvements in both dps trees. It gives a longer cool down and maintains its base cost for immortal to make it more balanced, but additional tweaks will be required on the other 2 tanks to maintain that balance. P.S. if you want to figure out my sig go watch burn notice. The clear insult in your reply is completely unnecessary, this is a discussion on improvements that can be made to the game. Lets not bring it down to the level of the general forum. We can have a discussion without being rude to one another.

You misunderstood me on the taunt, i should have been more clear. The pvp effect of the aoe taunt would not change regardless of stance, the only thing that would change is the pve taunt affect. Instead of grabbing attention and increasing threat it would lower it. PvP would not be affected. This would give all three tank AC's a reliable threat drop in dps spec for pve while still allowing them to protect in pvp. The problem with enraged defense and just removing the threat drop from it means jugg/guardian tanks get another cooldown when they already have arguably the best cooldowns of all the tanks. Right now the threat drop pretty much eliminates 99% of its potential uses in pve. This could really imbalance the tank situation. If it is allowed they need to improve the cooldowns of the other 2 tanks to compensate. Another idea i had was to make enraged defense a 4 rage cost 10% heal with a 2 minute cooldown(no threat drop). For rage and vengeance have talents that remove the rage cost, lower its cooldown back to 45 seconds, increase the heal by 5% and add the 15% damage reduction. With this it is usable by all 3 specs, but they would probably have to do some tweaks on the other 2 tanks to compensate. For immortal it becomes an additional rage dump with a small heal every 2 minutes

Here is a couple of ideas i had for enraged defense and for a threat dump for juggernaut. 1. Redesign taunt for all the tank classes. Each one of the tanks uses stances so just make aoe taunt work as a threat dump in dps stance( sins don't have a real threat dump either, and operatives have both cloak and threat dump). All other classes have 45 second threat dumps and aoe taunt is 45 seconds as well. The threat dump added to the powertech can be removed. 2. Enraged defense redesigned as a free 15% heal and 15% damage reduction, but it can't be used in soresu form. Remove the damage reduction upgrade in vengeance and replace the cost reduction talent in rage with something else. I believe this is a good starting point as it provides vengeance and rage a good defensive cool down without adding another to immortal and unbalancing the tanks, and provides a real threat dump to all three tank AC's which none had previous to 2.0.

I agree with most of what you said, but in general anyone who has ever worked customer service can tell you this is par for the course. You ever worked in a restaurant as a server? It's funny when you learn to spot the people who complain on purpose because they know it will get them a free meal. Years ago i actually lost my job because of one of these people. That is probably why i get so sick and tired of threads like these, I often wonder if some of these idiotic hate threads have potentially caused someone to lose their job as well, people who more than likely didn't do anything wrong.

I agree with you on this. This game is no were near pay to win, but there are some things they can do to improve the game. If i was to make any changes this is what i would do. 1. Subscriber rewards system. 4 tiers of rewards, one tier unlocked for every 3 months of constant sub time, 4 or 5 rewards per tier. Every 3 months you can choose one reward from any tier you have unlocked. Additionally, add in a sub vendor with items only sub can get with credits, and have a few items that can only be purchased if you have unlocked a certain tier. Each year add 1 new item to each tier, and transfer an old one from each tier to the vendor for credit purchase. If your sub lapses more than a month you have to start all over. 2. Remove the gear authorizations or drastically lower the price. 3. Change the revive probes to a one time unlock, charge 1/2 the amount of the epic gear authorization. Without unlock you can only res at med center. 4. Legacy bank tab purchasable for same price as epic gear authorization for ftp, subs can spend credits or cc. 5. Change the weekly passes to convenience passes like the flash point pass: a.Remove war zones per week cap and change it to a weekly com cap which the pass overwrites. Also allow ftp to queue for ranked with or without the pass. b. Space com and credit cap, unlimited space missions( this will be more important when the space game gets updated). c. For operations a few changes need to be made. I would add a new com called an operations com, 1 com would be dropped from each boss in an op. All set pieces can be purchased with either the token from the boss or with enough operations coms equal to 20% or 30% of the non tier piece off the vendor(i.e. 16 to 24 for bracers) as long as you have downed that boss on that difficulty mode( achievement required). Ftp players would be able to enter any operation but have a coms cap that is half of what subs have, would not be able to receive tier gear from drops, and can receive one non tier piece per week. The operations pass would bring um to sub level for 1 week, otherwise they can grind it out and eventually get the whole tier set for that difficulty mode as long as they can get past all the bosses. All the weekly passes would be a convenience purchase while gearing, but all content would be 100% open to them.

You lose a lot more than you listed. ill add everything up: 3% damage reduction from crushing blow(almost cancels out advantage of 4% in vengeance) 4% shield -(even though jugg doesn't focus on shield or absorb as much as the other 2 tanks, shielding by and large is far more important in 2.0 since it works on all energy and kinetic damage now.). With vengeance you can fit in one extra scream every minute compared to immortal, thats 1400-1500 extra damage mitigated. Although i am not a true numbers cruncher i am willing to bet the 4% shield mitigates more than that. Improved rage management( smash and scream become cheap or free if you play it right, nothing costs more than 3 rage in immortal, sweeping costs 2) I am swimming in rage most of the time now and can even weave in vicious slash several times a minute, vicious throw when below 30% thus improving damage and threat. Improvement on all cool downs across the board( saber ward cool down is lowered as well, endure pain last twice as long, saber reflect produces threat). If you time average invincible over a 6 minute fight you get a little over 1% damage reduction. You can potentially use invincible 1 more time in a 6 minute fight with a 2 1/2 minute cool down it has now. There is your extra 1% you get in vengeance(its actually about 1.33% over a 6 minute fight if you have the set bonus). 5% internal and elemental(4% more overall than vengeance) Much higher aoe threat Much higher single target snap threat( saber reflect doesn't just have to be used on aoe, crushing blow does a lot of damage now and has a big threat mod compared to impale.) You should not be taking a hybrid build. It is sub par. Everything in immortal just "flows" much better since the expansion.

You can not purchase set bonus pieces with coms, the only way to get them is to get the token drop after defeating the boss.

If it is added into the game i can' t wait for the "I hate you bioware" posts that will happen. We all know someone will say we want more of "X" and that bioware is stupid for implementing this and thus taking away from other development. It is always hilarious to me to see "we want more content " posts, and then when they add more people still complain,

Just gonna throw some speculation on the fire: I've wondered the whole time if the dread masters have been building their army because they know what the emperor's real plan is. I think they are taking advantage of the fact that the emperor is temporarily out of the fight. If you have played the Jedi Knight story you know what i am talking about,

I agree with this. If i was to do a loyalty rewards program it would be like this: Every 3 months a sub chooses one of 4 or 5 rewards then moves up to next tier, 4 in all for 1 year of constant sub. Additionally for every 3 months of sub time i would reward 250 cc and 6 months an additional 500 cc awarded as as long as the sub stays renewed, 1 full year would reward 4 sub only items of your choice and an additional 1500 cc

I don't disagree with you, poor choice of words on my part. There is a small portion of the player base that are whales, and i am sure they help to bring in a lot of extra revenue. For example, i am a aware of many players that spend a lot of money every time new packs are released. I 'm sure i'm not alone in this. But of course they bring in revenue in other ways such as subscriptions, the occasional coin buyer, or those who don't have a lot of free time IRL and choose a pay for convenience path. The main point i was trying to make is while "nickle and dimining" is present to encourage subscriptions, it is the individual player who decides if they are gonna let themselves be. Every player in this game has a choice of how much they spend on the game. Most of the people complaining in this thread make it seem like Bioware has given them no option, and that they are just trying to gouge everyone. This is not the case. And i would just like to point out that overall i have no problem with the ftp model. I realize that without it many of the items now in game would not exist, and that it has helped to make this game highly profitable. I guess the only thing i wish they did differently was sell the dye modules directly in the market instead of the packs. But i don't get bent out of shape about it. And i wish people would stop making these threads, i swear it is like watching low information voters talk about politics. But i know that is like crapping in one hand and wishing in the other : I already know which one will fill up first.

I agree with your first point, but not the second, While there is the potential to be nickel and dimed, the only person who does it is yourself. This game is supported by whales, every player in this game has the choice to spend as much or little money as they wish. The whales and those subs who spend their CC on unlocks to sell on the GTN make it possible for anyone to play for free if they choose. All you have to do is be willing to spend the time to grind credits, but with the "i want it now" generation patience is not a virtue.